<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think people are getting sick of you whining and taking shots at Vince every chance you get. </div> So it's wrong to do that to a player you like, but it's fine when you criticize Lebron in every thread? I don't know if there are many hockey fans here, but I would be disgusted to see Vince's jersey hanging in the rafters with some of the Leaf's greats.
vince carter's toronto raptors #15 jersey might go to Jorge Garbajosa! and vince's nickname "Air Canada" might as well go to Jorge- "Air Garbage" - i dont knw wht nickname to give him hopefully u guys have better ideas
The Blazers aren't gonna retire Sheed's number, so why should they retire Vince's? You Vince fans think he was the one that put you on the map; I believe that all the fans, that are tired of Hockey and second rate football, went to go see the game of basketball. Not Vince. Sure he was your first superstar but, you don't see Orlando retiring Shaq's number or Mcgrady for that matter.
Sheed and Vince? Don't see the relation there? Also I won't say I'd be surprised if the Magic did retire Shaq's number, it's not out of the realm of possiblity. Tmac also only played with them for 4 seasons. Also Vince's numbers is not worthy of retiring on any team except the Raptors, and that's a fact.
Really, this is a timeless debate... we all know what Vince brought to us in Canada, he's the reason we still have a team. He inspired us for years and wowed us Canadians, and made a massive impact. However near the end of his tenure in T.dot, his negatives could outweigh his positives. If you turn a blind eye towards what he did at the end, yes we should retire his jersey number. However we can't ignore what he did to embarass us...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">However near the end of his tenure in T.dot, his negatives could outweigh his positives</div> Nah, I doubt that. The positives are far greater than the negatives, it's not like the negative was us losing our team or something, the negative was just him alone not having the best of seasons. And we have Bosh...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">Really, this is a timeless debate... we all know what Vince brought to us in Canada, he's the reason we still have a team.</div> That's a ridiculous statement. Toronto has had a solid fan base and good corporate sponsors since day 1. Toronto would still be here and going strong if we had of kept Antawn Jamison and not traded for Vince
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Nah, I doubt that. The positives are far greater than the negatives, it's not like the negative was us losing our team or something, the negative was just him alone not having the best of seasons. And we have Bosh...</div> The negative wasnt him not having "the best of seasons". It was him visibly...incredibly obviously not trying on the court game after game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">the fans, that are tired of Hockey and second rate football, went to go see the game of basketball.</div> Since you're from Oregon we can let this go once, but what you just said was simply stupid. Next to nobody in Canada will ever get tired of hockey, much less Leafs fans. And I'm willing to bet you've never been to or would understand a CFL game. I dare you to attend a labour day CFL game, or any game for that matter and tell me that you're watching "second rate football". As for the retire 15 topic, it's more of a question of whether you like Vince or not. For the most part those of us who hate Vince for what he did would never accept his jersey being retired even if he brought us a championship. On the flip side, the unfortunately handicapped people who still love him will never admit he was bad for the team. This is destined to be another endless debate along the line of Wade vs. Lebron and Yao vs. Big Ben.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's a ridiculous statement. Toronto has had a solid fan base and good corporate sponsors since day 1. Toronto would still be here and going strong if we had of kept Antawn Jamison and not traded for Vince</div> You think that without winning the Slam dunk comp, making the Eastern conference finals, the high flying dunks, the big name of Vince Carter the attraction, we would still have Toronto? I highly doubt that, he was an icon and kept the franchise running, without him Toronto had no star, no marketability, there was nothing to see. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Vince brought us a championship, there wouldn't be many people who hate him.</div> If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> On the flip side, the unfortunately handicapped people who still love him will never admit he was bad for the team. This is destined to be another endless debate along the line of Wade vs. Lebron and Yao vs. Big Ben. </div> I admit he became bad for the team, obviously. But, that's not to downplay from his previous accomplishments either. Fact is, his jersey most probably will not be retired on the rafters of Toronto. Before Vince, AW's jersey should be retired. If his isn't retired then Vince's shouldn't either because the public would never accept it. I don't wanna see his jersey being retired to boos. However, I will say that some people are EXTREMELY bitter about this Vince stuff...I mean, I know he did wrong but when I think of Vince I think of him as the icon and the legend that he was in the GTA....it's kinda depressing everytime I think of that headbanded Vince that allegedly told the Sonics it was a flare play, so I kind of blank it out. Blind love? Sure, but it's better then the blind hate some people show towards him, like he did absolutely nothing for this franchise. Yes, we really would have gone far with Antonio Davis or perhaps Charles Oakley being our main options.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...</div> I wasn't just making a random statement, I was replying to byrce saying "For the most part those of us who hate Vince for what he did would never accept his jersey being retired even if he brought us a championship"
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">You think that without winning the Slam dunk comp, making the Eastern conference finals, the high flying dunks, the big name of Vince Carter the attraction, we would still have Toronto? I highly doubt that, he was an icon and kept the franchise running, without him Toronto had no star, no marketability, there was nothing to see. </div> My god man...Toronto was a young team when Vince came, and is still a newish team compared to most out there. Atlanta has gone 10 years without a true franshise player and they're still around. Why wouldnt Toronto? We've got a bigger population than nearly all the other NBA teams, we've got a great list of corporate sponsers, we've got a country worth of fans now that there's only 1 team. And besides...if we didnt have Vince we would of had another player in his stead. Would Antawn Jamison of taken the Raps as far or farther than Vince? No probably not...but its not like he still wouldnt of been a solid player to develope or trade away for assets near the end of his rookie contract. Jamison could of been a star in the right situation. Of the same magnitude? No, but still a star. And with AD and AW + a little known person named T-MAC...oh i dont know i think we could of been fine. OH and to correct you...the Raps never made the eastern confernance finals....it was the second round. Whooopdi do!!!! You Vince fans act like he made us into a dynasty. He had a few solid years sure, we got to the playoffs twice (first round once second round once) but we also endured his 2,000 soft injuries that made him miss a chunk of a few seasons. Was he a great player? Yes Was he good for the city and team? Yes Would we still have a team if we had never traded Jamison for him? Yes You dont retire a players number becuase they take you to the playoffs twice, then demand a trade and slam the team in the papers.
You're comparing franchises in two completely different stages, with Atlanta and Toronto. Whereas the Hawks had already found a market in the city and could kind of afford losing seasons, the Raptors were still looking for a niche in Toronto early on. And a losing season is so much more devastating when you're still trying to establish roots in your market. The fact is, expansion teams have around 5-6 seasons to really show their fans that they are headed in the right direction. Not only did VC's addition push us in that direction, his marketability and eventual superstar status was a one of the reasons that the Raptors were able to become one of the more stable franchises in the NBA. Just look at the effect he had on the city. We still had one of the top attendances in the NBA, even 3 seasons removed from the last playoff run. And he was also instrumental in the rising popularity of basketball in Canada. The sport has made a huge leaps in this country from 1995 to now, and most of that took place during the Raptors' playoff runs. I doubt we would have gone the Vancouver route if we didn't have VC, but there's no doubt he pushed us over the top when it came to becoming a legitimate NBA market, instead of a developing expansion team. Still don't think his jersey should be retired though. spawn/Junoon made a great point: you can't retire a player's jersey if the entire arena will probably be booing the whole ceremony.
