<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enigma)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> It sounds like a person searching for answers. Make up your damn mind already. The preseason was for tinkering around, we are 15 games into the season, every game matters.</p> </div></p> I don't see a lineup that HAS worked yet. Have you seen one? Do you want to continue to use something that isn't working, or find something that does work?</p> </p>
What I have seen is a promising rookie, who produces everytime he steps on the floor.He should be starting alongside Collins.What has Malik Allen done this season to warrant starting over Sean? Same goes for Collins? Here look at this chart, besides Sean is any other Nets big man in the positives</p> http://www.82games.com/0708/0708NJN.HTM</p> The starting lineup should be Kidd, Vince, RJ, Sean and Collins. Considering one of the big 3 is always on the floor with the bench players, there will always be someone to create for guys like Wright and Boki.</p> How about Magloire? What does Collins do so much better than him? His offense at this point is just as bad as Collins, but he plays solid D, blocks shots and rebounds. Shouldnt he get some minutes? At least play him with the bench guys.</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Show me where I said you <u>have</u> to change your opinion. Show me where I said your opinion is wrong. I'm sorry that you're disturbed by the arguments you imagined I made, but maybe it means you're just disturbed.</p> Here's what I said if you want to read it again: when you base your opinion on points which are shown to be wrong, or which have changed over time, you should possess the ability to change that opinion.</p> Let's parse this anonymous quote that I pulled from somewhere on the internet: "Its time Frank gets the axe. The man just doesn't learn. Whats with a different lineup every night? What is with the Collins infatuation? Anyone notice that most of Gasol's points came from 18 feet out. The rotation is a mess. Magloire seems to have disappeared off the Nets radar yet Collins and Boone keep getting minutes. Baffling indeed."</p> Here this person begins by seeming to imply that Frank should be fired because he is unable to change his approach to coaching, a long-time complaint made by critics. In the next sentence, he criticizes Frank for changing the line-up. He then criticizes Frank for using Collins, who, according to some, is an excellent interior defender. He then notes that all of Gasol's points came from 18 feet out.</p> In the first 5 sentences, we have 2 examples of a person indirectly refuting his own opinion, and yet this person's judgement clearly remains unaffected by the evidence he himself provides. I wish I could thank this person for proving my point so thoroughly, but I wish for him to remain anonymous.</p> </div></p> Dude, dont insult my intellegence, I know how to debate. Im sorry If I have touched a raw nerve but Dont talk down to me. Im disturbed because you have missed my freaking point yet again...</p> Answer this; Is Collins a non-factor on offense? Is he too slow in transition to be a factor in fast break basketball? Is he unable to block at least 1.5 a game (A must for a defense first post player)? Is his inability to convert at the foul line a joke? Has his athletic capabilities started to elude him in the last 2 years? Has that relyable mid range jumper he once had all but dried up?</p> Now if you have answered no to any of these questions you are disagreeing with fact. These points are what I base my opinion on.</p> By the way by implying my facts are wrong, my arguement is wrong. Basic arguement algebra.</p> Im sorry if Im harping on, but I object to the fact that it is in your mind what I see with my own eyes is some sort of hallucination. He is a poor fit. Thats what I see every time I tune in.</p> </p>
-Gasol killing us from 18 ft comment-shouldnt Frank just have put someone on Gasol that would bother Gasol at 18ft?-Not thinking five minutes ahead. WHO would we put on him that would bother him at 18 ft? Plus if that strategy did work, Gasol would just post up instead of shooting jumpshots. It is a loss-loss situation, so as a coach, you pick the lesser of two evils-Have Gasol shoot instead of post up and score in the paint. Whether or not he makes them depends on Gasol.</p> -Why Collins in the last few minutes of the game?- To defend the other team's best big since he will most likely be there. Also notice that Frank actually subs Collins out a few times in the last few minutes-especially when the game is wired down to freethrows. His substitutions arent perfect, because as mentioned before, he has yet to find a lineup that works great.</p> -Inconsistency with the minutes- Because he is tweaking with the lineups. In case you are refering to Magloire, he has been nothing but a negative with his turnovers and with some of the mistakes he makes on both ends of the floor. The part of the team with the most inconsistency when it comes to minutes is the frontcourt. Allen is either playing solid or not, Magloire, well we still need to wait on him but out of all the bigs he has played the worst, Sean is getting his minutes, Collins is Collins, Krstic is out until he is ready, Boone has been playing solid as of late and thus been earning his minutes, and Nachbar is either hot or cold with his jumpshot.</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> -Inconsistency with the minutes- Because he is tweaking with the lineups. In case you are refering to Magloire, he has been nothing but a negative with his turnovers and with some of the mistakes he makes on both ends of the floor. The part of the team with the most inconsistency when it comes to minutes is the frontcourt. Allen is either playing solid or not, Magloire, well we still need to wait on him but out of all the bigs he has played the worst, Sean is getting his minutes, Collins is Collins, Krstic is out until he is ready, Boone has been playing solid as of late and thus been earning his minutes, and Nachbar is either hot or cold with his jumpshot.</p> </p> </div></p> </p> Good post! </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> -Gasol killing us from 18 ft comment-shouldnt Frank just have put someone on Gasol that would bother Gasol at 18ft?-Not thinking five minutes ahead. WHO would we put on him that would bother him at 18 ft? Plus if that strategy did work, Gasol would just post up instead of shooting jumpshots. It is a loss-loss situation, so as a coach, you pick the lesser of two evils-Have Gasol shoot instead of post up and score in the paint. Whether or not he makes them depends on Gasol.</p> -Why Collins in the last few minutes of the game?- To defend the other team's best big since he will most likely be there. Also notice that Frank actually subs Collins out a few times in the last few minutes-especially when the game is wired down to freethrows. His substitutions arent perfect, because as mentioned before, he has yet to find a lineup that works great.</p> -Inconsistency with the minutes- Because he is tweaking with the lineups. In case you are refering to Magloire, he has been nothing but a negative with his turnovers and with some of the mistakes he makes on both ends of the floor. The part of the team with the most inconsistency when it comes to minutes is the frontcourt. Allen is either playing solid or not, Magloire, well we still need to wait on him but out of all the bigs he has played the worst, Sean is getting his minutes, Collins is Collins, Krstic is out until he is ready, Boone has been playing solid as of late and thus been earning his minutes, and Nachbar is either hot or cold with his jumpshot.</p> </p> </div></p> I would have used Williams on Gasol, and played Magloire. Let Gasol do some work defensively. We all know he wasnt guarding Collins, whats the point. Let him expand some energy on defense, Magloire would have laid some muscle on him in the post. And also made it tougher for him grab rebounds. Williams covers a lot of length with his ginormous wingspan, he would have moved much better contesting those 18 footers than Collins would.</p> Regarding your statement about defending the other team's bigs, like who? Go back to the 5 games that the Nets lost, the NO and Miami games come to mind. How many came off guard penetration? Sean Williams in the paint would most likely block those shots by CP and Wade. The only guy that Collins has shut down this season has been LMA. I dont want this to sound like a Collins bashing post, but most teams are using quicker and more mobile bigs, making a guy like Collins useless.</p> Regarding the third point, you have a point. Not much to argue about, the frontcourt needs help. Maybe Kristic will get back to form</p> </p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enigma)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> -Gasol killing us from 18 ft comment-shouldnt Frank just have put someone on Gasol that would bother Gasol at 18ft?-Not thinking five minutes ahead. WHO would we put on him that would bother him at 18 ft? Plus if that strategy did work, Gasol would just post up instead of shooting jumpshots. It is a loss-loss situation, so as a coach, you pick the lesser of two evils-Have Gasol shoot instead of post up and score in the paint. Whether or not he makes them depends on Gasol.</p> -Why Collins in the last few minutes of the game?- To defend the other team's best big since he will most likely be there. Also notice that Frank actually subs Collins out a few times in the last few minutes-especially when the game is wired down to freethrows. His substitutions arent perfect, because as mentioned before, he has yet to find a lineup that works great.</p> -Inconsistency with the minutes- Because he is tweaking with the lineups. In case you are refering to Magloire, he has been nothing but a negative with his turnovers and with some of the mistakes he makes on both ends of the floor. The part of the team with the most inconsistency when it comes to minutes is the frontcourt. Allen is either playing solid or not, Magloire, well we still need to wait on him but out of all the bigs he has played the worst, Sean is getting his minutes, Collins is Collins, Krstic is out until he is ready, Boone has been playing solid as of late and thus been earning his minutes, and Nachbar is either hot or cold with his jumpshot.</p> </p> </div></p> I would have used Williams on Gasol, and played Magloire. Let Gasol do some work defensively. We all know he wasnt guarding Collins, whats the point. Let him expand some energy on defense, Magloire would have laid some muscle on him in the post. And also made it tougher for him grab rebounds. Williams covers a lot of length with his ginormous wingspan, he would have moved much better contesting those 18 footers than Collins would.</p> Regarding your statement about defending the other team's bigs, like who? Go back to the 5 games that the Nets lost, the NO and Miami games come to mind. How many came off guard penetration? Sean Williams in the paint would most likely block those shots by CP and Wade. The only guy that Collins has shut down this season has been LMA. I dont want this to sound like a Collins bashing post, but most teams are using quicker and more mobile bigs, making a guy like Collins useless.</p> Regarding the third point, you have a point. Not much to argue about, the frontcourt needs help. Maybe Kristic will get back to form</p> </p> </p> </div></p> </p> Well probably what Frank thought is that if Sean was on Gasol, Gasol would just post him up. Realistically, the only two guys on the team that slow down an elite big man in the paint are Collins and Magloire; however, as i stated before, Magloire hasnt been up to par on either end of the floor imo, especially offensively. Besides, I do not mean to sound like a Collins lover, but the only other big that would even guard Gasol at 18ft is Sean. Magloire, Collins, Allen, and even Boone at times will find themselves chasing after Magloire when he is 18ft out. What really killed us in that game was leaving the three point arc unguarded. Also, Collins wasnt that bad offensively, he actually made a shot . And Williams does a great job offensively, thus earning him minutes, however we cant have him play 48 or else he will collapse from exhaustion! When that happens, then i'll want Frank's head on a platter. </p> I really hope the frontcourt steps up soon. Before this season began I thought we had an above average frontcourt.....now look at it.</p>
This team is already done, keep Frank and Collins with this team forever, keep defending both this guys,</p> and this team willnot bebetter than a .500 team, and just keep wasting Jason Kidd's fuels remaining in his tank.</p> After Jason Kidd's contract is over, then this is Jason Collins's team, he will start until he's 40.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enigma)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Good posts L.</p> </div></p> You too. But jarkid gives me headaches. I dont mind the broken english, I understand why his posts are not the most grammatically correct, but me no likey his constant negativity towards collins and Frank. </p> </p> Again, I hope magloire and Krstic come back into playing like their old selves again, or else the frontcourt problems will be a huge problem this season.</p> </p> I also like some of Dumpy's ideas about putting Krstic, Boone and Magloire on the bench. Collins and Williams, I think, would work very well defensively together. Then off the bench Krstic would have an easier time scoring against the other team's bigs that come off the bench. That, and I think he and Marcus can use the pick and roll effectively together. And if there are any misses, the nets would have Magloire battling for the offensive boards. dont forget Boone also. If he and Krstic were on the court together, the oppostion's defense would have to pick their poison when it comes to the pick and roll. Currently, i guess we can use Allen instead of Krstic. This team has a lot of different pieces that can be utilized on offense, but only when those pieces are playing well, healthy, and ultimately then up to Frank to determine the lineups that work best.</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Downunderwonder)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Show me where I said you <u>have</u> to change your opinion. Show me where I said your opinion is wrong. I'm sorry that you're disturbed by the arguments you imagined I made, but maybe it means you're just disturbed.</p> Here's what I said if you want to read it again: when you base your opinion on points which are shown to be wrong, or which have changed over time, you should possess the ability to change that opinion.</p> Let's parse this anonymous quote that I pulled from somewhere on the internet: "Its time Frank gets the axe. The man just doesn't learn. Whats with a different lineup every night? What is with the Collins infatuation? Anyone notice that most of Gasol's points came from 18 feet out. The rotation is a mess. Magloire seems to have disappeared off the Nets radar yet Collins and Boone keep getting minutes. Baffling indeed."</p> Here this person begins by seeming to imply that Frank should be fired because he is unable to change his approach to coaching, a long-time complaint made by critics. In the next sentence, he criticizes Frank for changing the line-up. He then criticizes Frank for using Collins, who, according to some, is an excellent interior defender. He then notes that all of Gasol's points came from 18 feet out.</p> In the first 5 sentences, we have 2 examples of a person indirectly refuting his own opinion, and yet this person's judgement clearly remains unaffected by the evidence he himself provides. I wish I could thank this person for proving my point so thoroughly, but I wish for him to remain anonymous.</p> </div></p> Dude, dont insult my intellegence, I know how to debate. Im sorry If I have touched a raw nerve but Dont talk down to me. Im disturbed because you have missed my freaking point yet again...</p> Answer this; Is Collins a non-factor on offense? Is he too slow in transition to be a factor in fast break basketball? Is he unable to block at least 1.5 a game (A must for a defense first post player)? Is his inability to convert at the foul line a joke? Has his athletic capabilities started to elude him in the last 2 years? Has that relyable mid range jumper he once had all but dried up?</p> Now if you have answered no to any of these questions you are disagreeing with fact. These points are what I base my opinion on.</p> By the way by implying my facts are wrong, my arguement is wrong. Basic arguement algebra.</p> Im sorry if Im harping on, but I object to the fact that it is in your mind what I see with my own eyes is some sort of hallucination. He is a poor fit. Thats what I see every time I tune in.</p> </p> </div></p> Good. If you know how to debate, you know that what you used is the straw man fallacy. You made up a position that you claimed I took, and then refuted that position. It's a wonderful trick, but then that person comes back and says, "show me where I took that position", and you have to evade the question entirely.</p> In fact, when I first replied to you, I thought it was pretty clear I wasn't discussing your position on Collins, or even you. I made up a hypothetical you. This wasn't even a Collins thread, this was a Frank thread, and I threw in the Collins bit to allude to inflexibility of viewpoint that I've seen elsewhere on the board. I'm not even thinking of you when I say this.</p> Now, as to your argument algebra, to dispute the facts underlying the opinion does not mean I'm saying the opinion is wrong, because, as you yourself have stated, opinions are statements of belief and can't be proven wrong. I'm not even saying you should change your opinion. For the third time, I'm saying you should be capable of doing so. There are plenty of people here who aren't. It's annoying. It makes debating with them pointless.</p> Let me give you a hypothetical. Say there's a Nets fan who has an issue with Carter's lack of defense and poor shot selection. I know, preposterous, right? But just imagine it. Say, then, Carter starts the season by playing aggressive defense, and being more of a playmaker and getting others involved on offense. The typical Frank-and/or-Collins-bashing-type response would be to either find some other fault with him, to claim it will be short lived, or, more likely, to say Carter sucks! and be done with the discussion. It makes reading these pages a little less fun and a little more tedious.</p> Lastly, as for Collins, I really enjoy watching good defense and intelligent basketball. It's why K-Mart was my favorite player. I'd rather see a stop than a dunk any day of the week (ok, unless it's an amazing dunk or a Kidd alley-oop). So clearly, we're relying on a different set of interpretable facts upon which to base our opinions. Also, your opinion that blocks are necessary for a defense-first player is totally wrong.</p> </p> </p> </p> </p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enigma)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Good posts L.</p> </div></p> You too. But jarkid gives me headaches. I dont mind the broken english, I understand why his posts are not the most grammatically correct, but me no likey his constant negativity towards collins and Frank. </p> </div></p> Yeah, I admit I speak Broken English,but... so what, I dare to express what the truth is.</p> In fact, I usually don't write thepost with my attention, because I don't want to waste too much time on the guy like L who is known as</p> <font color="#ff0000">***not appropriate. I love a good argument, but lets not resort to personal insults and diatribes***</font></p> By the way, I don't think your are speaking very goodEnglish, because your post is not that difficult to read, easy gramma in them.</p> In fact, the most important thing isyour logic is flawed, keep loving your Frank and Collins,</p> maybe you fall in love with them. Is Collins so good on the bed? Hum?</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enigma)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Good posts L.</p> </div></p> You too. But jarkid gives me headaches. I dont mind the broken english, I understand why his posts are not the most grammatically correct, but me no likey his constant negativity towards collins and Frank. </p> </div></p> If Frank and Collins can make the Nets team to be a contender, then I would love to watch them play.</p> But can you tell me what situation the Nets are in ?</p> I really hope you will be what you put in your avatar.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I really hope you will be what you put in your avatar.</p> </div></p> Just because its not a personal attack doesn't make it pretty shamefull conversation on your part. If Nets basketball is such a sensitive subject for you that you're telling people to get set themselves on fire over Jason Collins of all people then you should probably mature a bit, or cool off, before getting in another debate.</p> As I mentioned before I enjoy a strong, tense, argument, and this goes for everyone, but resorting to personal aspects in a post (save critique of a valid form of an argument, etc) completely undermines any attempt to post something intelligent.</p> So by all means let us continue, but lets nip this in the bud</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I really hope you will be what you put in your avatar.</p> </div></p> Just because its not a personal attack doesn't make it pretty shamefull conversation on your part. If Nets basketball is such a sensitive subject for you that you're telling people to get set themselves on fire over Jason Collins of all people then you should probably mature a bit, or cool off, before getting in another debate.</p> As I mentioned before I enjoy a strong, tense, argument, and this goes for everyone, but resorting to personal aspects in a post (save critique of a valid form of an argument, etc) completely undermines any attempt to post something intelligent.</p> So by all means let us continue, but lets nip this in the bud</p> </p> </div></p> </p> GMJigga I agree that we should not have personal attack in the posts, and I don't want to do that, too.</p> But L he mentioned to my English, and said it's broken, that's why he makes me to attempt to makesome personal attacks back to him.</p> That's what he deserves. He doesn't know the taste of insult. So I should have taught him that lesson.</p>
I don't want to hijack a thread on bashing the team () but I figure if we're in store for a long season, we better get this over with.</p> L did mention your english, I saw that. However this was not an attack, he briefly mentioned the fact that sometimes its not perfect (but who cares! we all still understand you perfectly . More so, lets read that sentence again:</p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I dont mind the broken english, I understand why his posts are not the most grammatically correct, but me no likey his constant negativity towards collins and Frank. </div></p> He says he disagrees with your posts, but goes out of his way to say that its not because of any language differences, its because of different opinions on Collins and Frank. Additionally I interpreted his smiley as a friendly sign. No harm done.</p> I don't think there was any personal harm meant by it, I think he mentioned it to say that he had no problem with it. Thats a good thing!</p> I can't blame you for interpreting it as an attack, though. That's just the language issue, I guess? Jarkid, anyone who brings up the fact that you're not from America only does so because they cannot support their own point. You bring up good points, and anyone who doesn't want to take the time to understand a short post is probably just lazy.</p> (And in what can only be seen as a peculiar event, the straw man fallacy is brought up twice in one thread, independent of each other!)</p> If you guys have any questions PM me. Luke and Downunder, happy hunting ;-)</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> What really killed us in that game was leaving the three point arc unguarded.</p> </div></p> </p> That's been a HUGE problem this season. It's either a product of lazy team defense, lazy player defense (that I've seen from RJ in particular), or interior defense bad enough that the perimeter defenders must try to "cheat" to prevent post players from getting too much of an advantage on a shitty post defender.</p> Or, quite possibly, the perimeter defenders feel they must create space in between themselves and the offensive player, so that the offensive player doesn't gain an advantage in being able to drive down low, where there is no strong interior defender to block or alter shots (aka scare the defender out of the paint).</p> I also believe it could be partly the coach's fault - sometimes it's his game plan to give perimeter players space or cheat with post players when playing defense, to prevent penetration...thereby giving those perimeter players enough space and time to be able to shoot the 3 ball with much success.</p> I plan on watching the next game and focusing on how the perimeter defensive players play, who's in the front court at that time, and try to figure out why they're playing such shitty perimeter defense.</p>
Jarkid, Im sorry, I didnt mean it as a personal attack. My english sucks too, I will be the first to admit it too. Im just saying that i dont always agree with your opinion. BUT HOW DARE YOU INSULT ME BY SAYING BE LIKE MY AVATAR! D:</p> </p> And peg- I think you are hitting the issue right on the head. Our perimeter guys are either too afraid to let the wings drive to the basket or its actually Frank's fault for telling them to do that.</p> Im going to be looking more into today's game and try to see when Sean is on the floor, if the wing defenders actually cheat off despite having a shotblocker in the paint. I remember the Hornets game when Sean kept on changing Paul's shots and then everyone became more hesistant to drive to the basket.(Too bad Peja never drives to the basket)</p>
I don't see why Wright and them are scared to cover the three ball. Sean has already proved he dosen't care about ending up on a poster so why not let him block it or earn two from the line because all our energy gets kicked out of us when nobodies hit big shots on us.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I don't see why Wright and them are scared to cover the three ball. Sean has already proved he dosen't care about ending up on a poster so why not let him block it or earn two from the line because all our energy gets kicked out of us when nobodies hit big shots on us.</p> </div></p> Could be Frank's fault, as he tells them what to do on defense.</p> </p>
