Sonics vs. Timberwolves: Official Game Thread

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting purehoops:</div><div class="quote_post">
Cleaves also makes a good cheerleader - when do you not see this guy standing up cheering the team on from him jumpsuit.</div>

I think I speak for a lot of Sonics fans when I say I was secretly glad to see him make the 15 man roster. He is just one of those chemistry guys - he's a superb locker room presence, he's always the first guy to congratulate teammates in a time-out and the first guy to stand and cheer a basket for the bench.

He isn't a bad player either, I think he's just never settled and found his niche in the league. The guy was MSU's on and off court leader and they won a national championship, but unfortunately his first years in the league were spent in Detroit and Sacramento (after being a lottery pick), who both had deep guard rotations and he was the odd man out. I think tonight he showed that he is going to be able to play short stints without the team dropping off, and big props to Bobby for having the confidence to put him in at such an important time.

 

I think the Supes need to loosen the reins on Flip and tell him to start scoring instead of worrying about being the point guard.

Not that Luke is doing any better. That flippy crap he does instead of trying to just lay the ball in the hoop is starting to piss me off. He's too scared of getting blocked.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">That flippy crap he does instead of trying to just lay the ball in the hoop is starting to piss me off.</div>

Starting to?

You've complained about it for the last year.

 

This season, like every other season, I'm going to make it all about the team and not harp on whether or not the guys that I really like are getting extensive minutes.

I was happy of how Bob managed the game tonight, especially considering how poorly we shot from long distance. That being said, I honestly think that the majority of the posters in this forum are about as naive as they come when it comes to assessing talent.

Mateen Cleaves played 8 effective minutes and all of a sudden he is the answer to our back up point guard problems. Never mind the fact that our starting point guard, Luke Ridnour, played terribly or that our back up wing man Damien Wilkins, shot poorly and turned the ball over also. Mateen Cleaves had two transition lay ups. Teams are going to sag off of him and force him to shoot that broke jump shot and he doesn't have the confidence to even attempt to get into the lane off of the pick and roll to try to make a play for himself or his teammates. He played on adrelaine yesterday but to call him the "next Antonio Daniels" (which is funny for me to even say b/c he's looked at in this forum as a Hall of Fame caliber player) is tremendously inaccurate.

I guess every fan needs a scapegoat that they can point to when their team isn't playing up to the capability. Mine was Reggie Evans up until last season b/c I thought that we were playing 4 against 5 when he was in the game. I just find it humerous that after a big win the first comments that I'm reading is how Flip's play in the first half essentially proved that he should again be buried at the end of the bench. His three turnovers were 1.) A chicken **** offensive foul when he had already beaten Troy Hudson off of the dribble, made a dump off pass for Collison for a perceived lay up, and inadvertantly made contact with his hip on to the frail Hudson. 2.) A turn around jump shot attempt where Hudson obviously got his hand on the ball when it went out of bounds 3.) An entry pass to Fortson at the top of the Key where Fortson did not make an attempt to get open or come to the ball.

Now granted you don't want your back up point guard turning the ball over when he gets into the game, but considering that at least two of the three turnovers shouldn't have been called I don't think that his play was as terrible as you guys make it out to be. Plus he only played 9 minutes. How much of an impact is someone supposed to have in a game when they are given 9 minutes spread out between the first and the second quarter?

You can't expect for Ray to make it through the season with the offensive burden that he has to carry this season. He has never been a 28+ scorer for an entire year and as it looks right now he'll have to keep that clip up if we are going to be successful. Flip is a guy who can take pressure off of him to score and also help our bigs get easier point in the lane, considering that we have no post up threat. This is a long 82 game season and if you think that we are going to contend for the NW title splitting our guard time between the trio of Ridnour, Cleaves, and Brunson you better hope that we are getting 55 points a night from Ray Allen and Sweet Lew on a consistent basis.

Get that hate out of your blood Sonic fans. Flip is not the cause for all of the Sonics troubles.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">That being said, I honestly think that the majority of the posters in this forum are about as naive as they come when it comes to assessing talent.</div>

That's why you're a coach and we aren't, fam dawg.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting purehoops:</div><div class="quote_post">Majority of Lewis' points came against other defenders, and while Garnett was benched.

...The Wolves on the other hand - had no rythm coming off the bench - McCants had a brief stint in the first half - but never saw the floor again in the second half. Granted his first half wasn't exactly great - but go back to the man, he created some open looks for other players... the rotation was horrible. And Casey brought Garnett back in the game way to late - after the Sonics had taken the lead and Garnett was stale from sitting on the bench late in the 3rd and well into the 4th. I blame the game on the coaching and poor matchup. Putting Garnett on Lewis may have limited his post game - but it allowed the Sonics tons of offensive rebounds.</div>

I realize that Lew scored the majority of his points off switches and while KG was benched, but to work within the offense, use other players to get the switches and know when to take your opportunities is a big learning we haven't seen from Lew. In the past if he had a solid defender like AK-47, The Matrix or Tayshaun Prince, he would suffer from poor decision making on the dribble, or bad shot selection. 19 points when you are guarded most of the game by a bigger, better player shows maturity from Lew that is what gives him the chance to remain an all-star.

I did wonder why KG was on the bench so long, but I thought Casey had the Wolves pretty well prepared defensively in the first half. He got them focused with a timeout after the Sonics took off to start the game. The Sonics offense was somewhat sloppy at the start because the Wolves were ready with solid counter plays. He put KG on Lew, and he forced the Sonics to penetrate, not giving them the jump shots until the OT. The only problem was that with KG on the outside and Kandyman's weak defense, they normally paint shy Sonics took it all the way inside. The Sonics just stuck with their game plan. I think the Wolves gave up on theirs and it cost them.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">I think the Supes need to loosen the reins on Flip and tell him to start scoring instead of worrying about being the point guard.

Not that Luke is doing any better. That flippy crap he does instead of trying to just lay the ball in the hoop is starting to piss me off. He's too scared of getting blocked.</div>

The problem is that Flip can become a black hole when put in the scorer role. The ball never escapes the pull of his ego's gravity.

Flip is a great scorer, but he hasn't had enough floor time to know when to be the scorer and when look for the pass. He hasn't found the balance needed for him to be a great player.

Luke was not all that bad last night. His shot was off in the second half, but fine in the first quarter. The runner in the lane is something he needs in his repertoire, so I am fine with it. It is the same shot all of the best small guards are using to give them more options in the lane. Parker is probably the best at it now. If Luke can master it, he will make defenses work harder on his penetration since they will have to watch for more than just the pass.

 

Shiek-

People get excited. Cleaves is Cleaves. As I said in my first post last night, he isn't going to get that open lane many more times. It didn't even work the third time he tried it last night. Damien played better defense last night than Flip has in the past two games, and Mateen showed better decision making. That is why they got the minutes.

Flip had around 2 good plays last night and around 3 or 4 bad ones, with the rest not really associated with his efforts. I will be charting defense for the game today, so maybe my live game perception will be altered, but that is the way it felt to me. The people sitting around me were screaming "Flip, you suck!" last night the whole time he was on the floor. I don't agree with them, but he is not playing his game yet either.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is the better player. The question is really about whether he is the better FIT. The Sonics NEED Flip to be the right fit. If he can play to his ability level within the niche the Sonics want him to fit into, then no one will be able to pick on him. I just haven't seen him able to do it yet. If he doesn't fit within the next month I expect we will see him traded somewhere that wants him for the what he is best at. I think his one year tender contract lets him approve the trade.

 

Mateen Cleaves may not be anything great but Flip Murray over the past 2 games and when given the opportunity has came up has just been bad 85% of the time. I hope Flip can take the backup pg spot but I just dont think he can and while Shiek you are right Cleaves is nooooooo Antonio Daniels he played a solid game for us and ran the point like I dont think Flip can. While your questioning the other posters on this board I think at some point you need to look in the mirror and recognize your blatant bias towards Flip. Its not that everyone on the board hates Flip its that he hasnt gotten the job done sense Ray Allen was hurt 2 years ago. Your affection towards him has blinded you of this and you can throw the blame on the coaches or by attacking some of the players that play or played in front of him but the fact is hard to argue that Flip has simply not shown the ability to handle this role.

Has he shown he can be a starting shooting guard and handle a lot of pressures in that role? Yes, but this backup combo guard role has not been pretty.

Heres to hoping he can figure it out though.

 

I only saw the second half - I was happy with our defense, we got most of our rotations and what can you do when you have Garnett with the ball and Jaric, Frahm, and Wally floating around the perimeter. Nick played good post D on KG.

Invdividually, I thought Luke looked horrible, besides the fact he still can't finish in the lane, he made some bad decisions late in the game, like when he dribbled into the paint with 29s to go and dished it to Ray in the corner. No need to put him in that position. Rashard doesn't look like he's there yet either, although I was somewhat impressed he took KG off the dribble once with a crossover and drew a foul. Both he and Luke need to learn the jump stop when they get in the lane.

Potapenko has got to make those wide open putbacks...that could've iced the game for us. And I fear Vlad will be in a season long funk due to his contract and his agent in his ear.

Other than that, nice to get win #1

 

Luke did look pretty bad but the fact that he can put up 10 pts, 9 assists, and 4 steals on an "atrocious" night is a good sign.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Both he and Luke need to learn the jump stop when they get in the lane.</div>

I think thats the key for Luke. The coaching staff needs to compile a highlight reel of Nash doing it, because no one does it better in this league right now. The high arcing flip is fine, sometimes its necessary when a big shotblocker is coming at you and the D has collapsed on the passing lanes. But I definately don't want to see it every time he gets into the lane, its just not a very high % shot, and thats all he's giving us right now.

RE: Flip/Mateen...

Flip would never have hit those layups that Cleaves did last night - because the Wolves would never have sagged off him 5 feet and dared him to take it to the hole like they did with Mateen. Not to take anything away from Cleaves, he provided a good spark last night and rightly took what the D was giving him. My guess though, and I think its a pretty good guess, is that Cleaves coming off the bench to help start/continue a run in the 4th quarter offensively is not going to be the norm this season.

I just think that if a month or two from now we are still relying on Mateen to play significant minutes in the 4th quarter, this team is in serious trouble. I love that Mateen made the roster, but all that is going to mean is that Flip is playing horribly and can't find his rythm off the bench. Ronald is clearly the more talented player and should be earning those minutes but hasn't yet. It all means nothing if he's constantly trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, though, and my fear is he'll never adjust to playing as the 2nd or 3rd scoring option when he's on the floor.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyone else notice Radman just dogging it out there?
</div>

I really hate to get down on Rad, but yeah his body language was horrible. I picture him on his cell with Bauman after the game discussing his minutes.

My thoughts on Flip - he's in the mold of Iverson/Francis, where he needs the ball in his hands and the offense really has to cater to him. I don't think trying to turn him into a point is a wise idea - if he's out there we need to take advantage of his strengths, which is basically put the ball in his hands and break his man down. Now, whether that's good for our offense or 2nd unit or whatever is another question.

As far as Cleaves - it's nice to see him do well and get some minutes, but I doubt he's the answer as a backup point - you can only get so far with a mediocre jumper and below average quickness and speed. He can't get by you with the dribble and he can't finish. But just as a guy to bring the ball up court and harrass guys like Troy Hudson, I have no problem having him do that for 5 minutes or so.

 

I really wasnt that disappointed with Vlade. I found him to be real active actually. I mean he was only on the court 16 minutes so he didnt do anything huge but I felt he was far more attentive to the game then he was against the Clippers. Its sad whats happening to Radman but im just not sure theres a viable spot for him to receive significant minutes anymore. Of course that also puts us in a dilemia because we succeeded last night with the 2 guys (flip and rad) that have the best shot at being a legit 3rd option. But while we need that 3rd option niether of those guys are playing well or fitting in that well. What we REALLY need is Luke to show that improved offense we were supposed to see this season. if Luke and maybe to some extent Nick can take that 3rd scorer role over it could be huge for us.

 

Calling Flip a black hole is just ridiculous. Just because he doesn't look for the pass before his shot doesn't mean he's a selfish player. Besides, he's one of the only guys on the roster who can take it to the rack hard.

I think the rotation right now should be something like this:

Petro/Fortson/Potapenko
Evans/Collison
Lewis/Radman/Wilkins
Allen/Murray/Wilkins
Ridnour/Brunson

And I still think Ray should only be getting about 30-32 mpg until the end of the season, but it looks like we can't afford to do that yet.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">Calling Flip a black hole is just ridiculous. Just because he doesn't look for the pass before his shot doesn't mean he's a selfish player. Besides, he's one of the only guys on the roster who can take it to the rack hard.

I think the rotation right now should be something like this:

Petro/Fortson/Potapenko
Evans/Collison
Lewis/Radman/Wilkins
Allen/Murray/Wilkins
Ridnour/Brunson

And I still think Ray should only be getting about 30-32 mpg until the end of the season, but it looks like we can't afford to do that yet.</div>


Casual I dont like this rotation because it basically makes Wilkins a 12th man. Hes outplayed Vlade and Flip head over heels he should be playing. Also why play Flip as simply a backup sg. We all know Flip cant just play 10-12 mpg and do well. I suppose if Allen actually only played 30 mpg like you suggested then maybe he would be getting 18 but also like you said that wont happen. With your rotation you need to cut Flip and put Wilkins in as the backup for sg and some sf. Im not necesarily condoning this lineup. But if we play Flip I think it ahs to be as backup pg and sg.

 

I know that I come off as biased on this site but I do recognize that Flip's play hasn't forced the coaching staff to keep him on the court. His play from the past season has almost ensured that the only role the staff feels comfortable giving him extensive minutes is the replacement for Ray Allen when he is out of the line up. He hasn't proven that he can handle the role of primary scorer with Ray on the bench and lead point guard with Ray out on the floor.

Here is my beef: He really shouldn't have to fit into a particular role when he comes in the game. At the end of the 2003-2004 season when the Sonics tried to make a strong push to get into the postseason Flip came off of the bench and provided an offensive spark that forced him to be on the court in late game situations. He wasn't a black hole like everyone suggested but instead he looked to get to the basket and/or post up to get scoring opportunities for himself and his teammates. He played very well w/ Ray Allen but I could sense that Ray didn't like plays being called for Flip late in the game. As you can see yesterday, Ray Allen's strengths aren't clearing it out for him and watching him try to make a play off of the bounce. He is a catch and shoot player before he is a dribble penetration player and the only real time he can get into the lane is in transition and when someone else is running at his jumpshot (or he gets a pick from Fortson).

Flip should be allowed to bring the ball up w/o being forced into running a play. That is why Antonio Daniels was so successful last season--we didn't run any plays on offense. It was just pick and roll or a dump down to Sweet Lew/BGJ. Occasionally there was a screen for Ray Allen on the baseline but other than that it was freelance basketball.

Has Flip been playing well these first two games? Definitely not but he hasn't been terrible either. I just see him trying to do what the coaching staff is asking of him, and being penalized for it the moment he makes a mistake. Sam Cassell scored one basket on Flip (granted it was a big one) with a hand in his face and Flip again gets called out as a defensive liability. He is playing with no margin for error and I think that it is starting to affect his game considerably.

If Flip is given a genuine opportunity to prosper as a back up for this team and he doesn't contribute than he should be benched and begin packing for whomever decides to offer him a contract. I don't think that 9 minutes is a genuine opportunity (though I don't mind how Weiss managed the game yesterday). I really expect an inspired performance from Ron on Tuesday b/c I get the feeling that he can also sense when he is being weeded out of the rotation.

When it comes to basketball, I'm not watching the game with blinders on. If a guy isn't bringing it I'm not going to argue that he is playing his way into the Hall of Fame.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">Calling Flip a black hole is just ridiculous. Just because he doesn't look for the pass before his shot doesn't mean he's a selfish player. Besides, he's one of the only guys on the roster who can take it to the rack hard.</div>

Casual-

The reason for the smiley at the end was to indicate that I was just taking the oppty to rib Flip for a second.

I still say Flip is a better scorer that Damien or Mateen or Brunson. However, you have to admit that at times he doesn't give up the ball once he gets it. I am ok when that occurs late in the shot clock, he is often the best one on one guy on the floor and can create his own shot (Ray is the only other guy who can). This means when the clock is running down he is going to look to break down his man and get off a shot. I just don't like it when he does it early in the shot clock and blows a possession with open shooters on the wings.

Calling a player selfish is an entirely different thing to me. Ricky Davis was a selfish player in Cleveland because he thought he was better than everyone else. Flip just has to improve his decision making.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting psheehy:</div><div class="quote_post">I realize that Lew scored the majority of his points off switches and while KG was benched, but to work within the offense, use other players to get the switches and know when to take your opportunities is a big learning we haven't seen from Lew. In the past if he had a solid defender like AK-47, The Matrix or Tayshaun Prince, he would suffer from poor decision making on the dribble, or bad shot selection. 19 points when you are guarded most of the game by a bigger, better player shows maturity from Lew that is what gives him the chance to remain an all-star.

I did wonder why KG was on the bench so long, but I thought Casey had the Wolves pretty well prepared defensively in the first half. He got them focused with a timeout after the Sonics took off to start the game. The Sonics offense was somewhat sloppy at the start because the Wolves were ready with solid counter plays. He put KG on Lew, and he forced the Sonics to penetrate, not giving them the jump shots until the OT. The only problem was that with KG on the outside and Kandyman's weak defense, they normally paint shy Sonics took it all the way inside. The Sonics just stuck with their game plan. I think the Wolves gave up on theirs and it cost them.</div>

That is a credit to the coaching, and yes Shard. I love Shard, one of my favorite players WHEN he wants to play. At times he looks zoned out when things are going his way - but I give all the credit to the coaching of the Sonics and Shard's movement and use of screnes to get his point.

And that brought me to my point of poor coaching of the Wolves. Putting Garnett on Shard had no effect - because wasting Garnett's best ability of defensive rebounds and off the ball help defense and blocks was wasted of him chasing Shard around the permetier.

However - like I have been reminded - Casey is still learning and its still was his second game of his head coaching career with the T'Wolves. While I would love to point out the good things the Wolves have been doing - there are so many mistakes that they can allow to happen - because Sam Cassell isn't there to take Garnett's back and catch fire to keep the Wolves out of trouble.

This game should have been a blowout for the Sonics - they did a wonderful job on Garnett, worked the ball around well - they just missed the shots. The Wolves won't be so lucky next time, when Ray drains all those open jumpers, and Luke has some game experience under his belt.