<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't be sure its unconcious, it can be concious aswell. An example of unexpected racism is in a soccer match. Ron Atkinson, a white commentator didn't realise he was on the air and he called one of the players a nig*er.</div> Well in the judging aspect, I doubt that people who are blatantly biased like that would be allowed to stay on. And to be fair, even though America has problems with race relations, Europe is so much worse. The US has subtle racism that exists despite people's effort to ignore it. Racism in Europe is in your face, with much more segregation between ethnic communities.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't be sure its unconcious, it can be concious aswell. An example of unexpected racism is in a soccer match. Ron Atkinson, a white commentator didn't realise he was on the air and he called one of the players a nig*er. Nobody would have expected him to come out with a comment like that.</div> So you people believe because steve nash is white he beat out lebron james because he is black? come on.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">So you people believe because steve nash is white he beat out lebron james because he is black? come on.</div> Where did you get this from? I said if there is racism, it isn't neccesarily unconciously done. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">Well in the judging aspect, I doubt that people who are blatantly biased like that would be allowed to stay on. And to be fair, even though America has problems with race relations, Europe is so much worse. The US has subtle racism that exists despite people's effort to ignore it. Racism in Europe is in your face, with much more segregation between ethnic communities.</div> Well the guy was 65 years old when he said this so he's been in soccer for around 40 years. It took 40 years to realise this dude was a racist.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">So you people believe because steve nash is white he beat out lebron james because he is black? come on.</div> No one is believing this is the case, but people are saying race could definitely factor in to a person's decision on voting for Player A or Player B.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Interesting statistics you have there. Theres definitely racial bias in the real world but I don't think things like that are as relevant in MVP voting. Its widely accepted that theres alot of problems with the legal system whether it be racial, gender issues, or social class and society is very much the same way but I don't think that NBA writers are going to make a knock on Kobe because hes black. Alot of people don't like Kobe because of who he is outside of his race. Even so, of all the MVP candidates Kobe's team had the worst record and worst playoff seeding. I agree with Brasco, if the Lakers had 50+ wins Kobe would be the MVP.</div> But the point is that those statistics (with the exception of the justice system) are often in areas where we would not expect them. This is because people don't often realize they when they are being racist. Ever watch Crash? Thats what the movie was about... how we are all affected by racial or ethnic or religious or class bias even when we ourselves are not aware of it. Ever watch a boxing match between a white guy and a black guy? Ever thought to yourself as soon as you saw the competitors without even knowing who they were or their respective records that the black guy was going to beat the crap out of the white guy? What motivates that kind of thinking? In any case I would agree that Kobe's team not being elite definately had more of an impact on him not getting the MVP than anything else. But I am questioning what would make some voters not include him in their top 5. Certainly the Lakers don't have that bad a record that one could justify dropping Kobe below the 5th most valuable player to his team in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">If there is racial bias, it would definitely be unconcsiously done.</div> Agreed. I would tend to think it would be unconscious as well... but racially motivated nonetheless.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Well the guy was 65 years old when he said this so he's been in soccer for around 40 years. It took 40 years to realise this dude was a racist.</div> That may be so, but you have to admit that there's a big difference between racism in Europe and North America. The difference is that, even though that nobody knew that the 65-year old dude was racist, he himself definitely knew he was. I find people in N.A. will say things that are racially biased and not even realize it. Whether it comes from a slanted media or just familial influence, racism here may be just as bad, but its harder to pick out and rarely discussed. Personally, I think this subtle racism is just as bad, if not worse, than Europe's blatant type.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">So you people believe because steve nash is white he beat out lebron james because he is black? come on.</div> No. I believe that it is POSSIBLE that SOME sportswriters MAY have unconsciously rooted for the "great white hope" when there was little or no separation between Nash and Lebron. Or that they may have allowed personal issues with Kobe Bryant outside of the realm of basketball to cloud their judgement on where he should have ranked in the MVP vote. Whether some of those personal issues were racially motivated as well... I can't say. Surely the possibility is not far fetched at all.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Where did you get this from? I said if there is racism, it isn't neccesarily unconciously done. Well the guy was 65 years old when he said this so he's been in soccer for around 40 years. It took 40 years to realise this dude was a racist.</div> The start of the civil rights movement was right around 1963. A 10 year old kid already well influenced by his parents ideologies would be 53 years old now and lived through 15 years of OPEN ethnic oppression + another 35 + years of not so open ethnic oppression. Why would it be so difficult to believe that these people would subconsiously be racist or even be consciously racist but hide it?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">No. I believe that it is POSSIBLE that SOME sportswriters MAY have unconsciously rooted for the "great white hope" when there was little or no separation between Nash and Lebron. Or that they may have allowed personal issues with Kobe Bryant outside of the realm of basketball to cloud their judgement on where he should have ranked in the MVP vote. Whether some of those personal issues were racially motivated as well... I can't say. Surely the possibility is not far fetched at all.</div> Where does this "great white hope" idea come from? If basketball writers were more inclined to support white stars like you say whether contiously or not, than you would think guys like Dirk nowitzki, steve nash and AK47 would get alot more press don't you think? this is the media that votes you know. As for the supposed bias against kobe in the media its total bull, like i said if kobe did everything he did this season and won 50 games he would undoubtably be the MVP this year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">That may be so, but you have to admit that there's a big difference between racism in Europe and North America. The difference is that, even though that nobody knew that the 65-year old dude was racist, he himself definitely knew he was. I find people in N.A. will say things that are racially biased and not even realize it. Whether it comes from a slanted media or just familial influence, racism here may be just as bad, but its harder to pick out and rarely discussed. Personally, I think this subtle racism is just as bad, if not worse, than Europe's blatant type.</div> Agreed. The lack of visibility of racism in the US makes it much more dangerous. 1. It causes racism to be downplayed by those it does not directly affect. They cannot see it and certainly don't know about it because they are not directly affected by it. So when they see someone flailing around and insisting they are being attacked by some invisible assailant the natural thing to do is to write that person off as being crazy. Which is exactly what's going on in the US today when people use the race card.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Where does this "great white hope" idea come from? If basketball writers were more inclined to support white stars like you say whether contiously or not, than you would think guys like Dirk nowitzki, steve nash and AK47 would get alot more press don't you think? this is the media that votes you know. As for the supposed bias against kobe in the media its total bull, like i said if kobe did everything he did this season and won 50 games he would undoubtably be the MVP this year.</div> So you don't think there is any bias in ANYONE voting Kobe lower than 5th? I am not saying anyone was biased in not voting him as the MVP. But I would find it incredibly difficult to justify finding 5 other guys who were more valuable to their teams than Kobe. What possible argument could you find to support that? You can't say that his record drops him off the list... that could be used to move him from the 1st spot and maybe even the second spot... but that leaves three other spots and the Lakers were not even that far from 50 wins. You also seem to be over sensitizing the way I am saying race may be a factor. The effect would be far more subtle than media hype etc.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Where does this "great white hope" idea come from? If basketball writers were more inclined to support white stars like you say whether contiously or not, than you would think guys like Dirk nowitzki, steve nash and AK47 would get alot more press don't you think? this is the media that votes you know. As for the supposed bias against kobe in the media its total bull, like i said if kobe did everything he did this season and won 50 games he would undoubtably be the MVP this year.</div> The press doesn't necessarily overhype Nash, Dirk, or Ak47, but they definitely go out of their way to smear a person's reputation. The negative spotlight typically lasts longer when a black athlete is involved versus a white athlete. It's one of the subtle ways the media goes about it.
Racism is everywhere, its in Europe and its in America. You can't really say that Americans are only unconsciously racist. People are racist whether they show it or not, no matter where you go. As far as the voting goes, I really doubt that there is major politics going on but there is always a little, whether it be conscious or unconscious, racism will always play a part in things like these. Again, I'm not insisting that this is pure racism, I'm saying it's always going to play a part. I think the fact that Kobe has more haters plays a bigger part in him being in the fourth spot for MVP.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Racism is everywhere, its in Europe and its in America. You can't really say that Americans are only unconsciously racist. People are racist whether they show it or not, no matter where you go. As far as the voting goes, I really doubt that there is major politics going on but there is always a little, whether it be conscious or unconscious, racism will always play a part in things like these. Again, I'm not insisting that this is pure racism, I'm saying it's always going to play a part. I think the fact that Kobe has more haters plays a bigger part in him being in the fourth spot for MVP.</div> Again i'll give you this kobe does have haters, but with only 45 wins for his team there are about at least 3 guys imo more deserving this year. In no order: Dirk novitzki (60 wins), Chauncey Billups (64 wins) LeBron James (50 wins), kobe will get his turn though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brasco:</div><div class="quote_post">Where does this "great white hope" idea come from? If basketball writers were more inclined to support white stars like you say whether contiously or not, than you would think guys like Dirk nowitzki, steve nash and AK47 would get alot more press don't you think? this is the media that votes you know. As for the supposed bias against kobe in the media its total bull, like i said if kobe did everything he did this season and won 50 games he would undoubtably be the MVP this year.</div> You are aware that he was only 5 games away from the number of games won that "would undoubtably" make Kobe the MVP this year. 1 player, 5 games...You can only ask for so many points after 81.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Flava23:</div><div class="quote_post">P.J. Brown got snubbed again this year </div> Huh? PJ Brown is still a player; you have to be retired five years before being even considered. Brown won't go in the HOF anyways.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Locke:</div><div class="quote_post">Huh? PJ Brown is still a player; you have to be retired five years before being even considered. Brown won't go in the HOF anyways.</div> Lol, I think he's referring to last year when some voter game him a 5th place vote for MVP.
There is something so bizarre about Steve Nash's name being associated with the names listed below: Michael Jordan Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Magic Larry Bird Kareem Moses Malone Bob Pettit Karl Malone Tim Duncan Every multiple-MVP until now has been an assured top twenty player at minimum. Steve Nash shouldn't even crack a top 75 list. Then consider guys like Hakeem or Shaq who have only one. Or what about Stockton or Isiah -- point guards far beyond Nash in stature and quality -- who were never given any serious consideration for the award? Two more names that are quite arguable for, at least, the top 20 all-time. If era is going to be used as the excuse, then we might as well admit right now that the NBA's relative talent is MIA compared to what it was a mere ten years ago. I guess this is a hard slap of reality -- the golden days have come and gone. Or, to be less hyperbolic (truthfully, I'm not at all sure if the last paragraph is hyperbole), this is definitely a down period at the least -- yet another transitional phase; though that's what I'd call basketball in 2000 and beyond, yet it never really came close to catching up to the Dream Team-era itself. This looks bad now. Historically it is going to look horrendous.
