Steph Is Not Untouchable

Ok, there is a lot in here that I'm going to comment on, so I'm not going to bother quoting. You all know what you posted so I don't find the relevance in it at this point.

First and foremost, Andrew Bogut is NOT overrated. Take a look at this:

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">20.4 ppg
12.2 rpg
2.3 apg
1.0 spg
1.9 bpg
62% FGs (281/453)
69.2% FTs (144/208)
36% 3PTs (9/25)</div>

Now please, show me the overrated in that. He gets all this hype because his numbers back it all up. He is going to be good. There is no question about that in my opinion. He has the capability to make more of an impact on a game for Atlanta then Steph ever could. You want to know why? Because he is big and he's a good low post scorer and those are coveted in this league. Plus, he's what, 20 yrs old? He'd be the future of that franchise to go along with Smith and Childress. To me, the Hawks are stupid to trade what would essentially be Bogut for Marbury, the 8th pick, and someoen who won't even be half as good as Bogut in Sweetney. Bogut will give them more years and will make more of an impact in about a year or so then Marbury.

Next thing up is Gerald Green. I don't see why you people are all over him. The only thing he has is potential. He's undersized and will likely take a couple years to develop. And if you couple him with Marbury, Smith, and Childress on the same team, there won't be any room for him to develop. It'd make no sense for the Hawks to trade off a sure thing in Bogut for someone who could be a huge bust in this league. It's stupid.

Next thing is something I think I already touched on and that'd be Marbury. He's not going to be good for that team. He's selfish. He's a career loser that hasn't taken a team to the playoffs in 2 years now. The only reason he got to the playoffs when he did is because he had great supporting casts everywhere he went. When he was in NJ and didn't have what he thought was a very good one, he went nowhere. Than look what happens. They keep the same team, add Jefferson, and trade Marbury for Kidd and now look, they're flourishing. Then look at the Knicks now. No more then a couple years ago they were in the playoffs, now they're at the bottom of the barrel. Granted Marbury helped them make a push last year, he did nothing this year. He had a good supporting cast and was in the East, a weaker conference, and couldn't do jack. He's not a team player and by bringing him to Atlanta, it'd end up hurting the development of Smith, Childress, and whoever they'd end up taking at the 8th spot.

Next thing, Sweetney is overweight. 6'8", 270 lbs, is overweight. Randolph, on the other hand, is not. 6'9", 253 lbs is good imo. 17 lbs less and an inch taller there. For you guys' sake, you better hope that Sweetney isn't the second coming of Oliver Miller.

And Tribute, you're right. They're first priority is to sell tickets. And bringing in exciting young talent such as Smith, Childress, and potentially Bogut, will do that. And another thing, the Hawks would never take Mo Taylor. He's overpaid and isn't going to revert back to his '98-'99 form when he got 17 ppg. Plus, he's an absolutely horrendus rebounder, only getting 4.8 per game in his career. And as I said, he's overpaid, and the Hawks aren't going to want to take him and his crap contract. And you're wrong again on something else. Bogut WILL be the first pick. He's ready for the NBA more than anyone else in the draft. He will also be a good rebounder. He's 7'0, 250 lbs, which is decent size and he's only bound to bulk up over the summer and in training camps. He will be good. His defense, I don't see how it is suspect. 2 bpg and 1 spg as a SOPHMMORE in college. A mere 20 years old. Granted it is only college, but that's still good for someone so young. He's going to be good. And personally, I don't see who is more worthy of being picked first then him. MABYE Chris Paul, but that's about it. I can tell you one thing, it sure ain't Gerald Green. This forum has him overrated. And on that note, I think I will end my rant.

 

I hate to post such a short, choppy post in the middle of all these monster ones, but the Knicks fans are being .

What have we learned today, Knicks fans?

- At 20, Andrew Bogut is a potential future NBA First Teamer and perennial All-Star, while 28-year old Marbury has five good years left in him, tops.

- Michael Sweetney is not our Lord and Savior, he is just simply a guy who ate too many Ho-Ho's as a kid and blimped up to 6-8, 400 lbs. Comparisons to Zach Randolph are silly. Yes, Sweetney only gets around 20 mpg, but when Randolph was a 2nd year player he only got around 16 mpg and was still able to have 30/20 games. Mike Sweetney will be lucky to be... as stated earlier... Oliver Miller.

- Gerald Green is not Tracy McGrady. In fact, he's not even the best High School player, and maybe even not one of the top two High School players. The only reasons people are talking so highly of him is because of a combination of a great McDonald's game and this "potential" lable that all High School players get. His upside <u>is not</u> as good as Andrew Bogut's. Right now he reminds me more of DeShawn Stevenson than Tracy McGrady anyway. That's what he'll develop into.... DeShawn Stevenson.

- The Knicks are not the center of the universe. Everyone is not dying to trade away their future just to have a little piece of New York Knick action.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Got DWade?:</div><div class="quote_post">Bogut isn't fat, sweetney is. And he only averages 5 rpg and 8 ppg in 19 minutes....a monster...and if you compare Zbo to sweetney, i'd take zach, i'd take brand, i'd even take bosh to bang with him, he isn't as strong as you make him out to be...</div>

I'm sorry...I dont mean to be rude but that had to be the stupidest thing said in this thread yet. I mean really...Bosh has a hard time holding his own against regular powerforwards. Let alone powerforwards who can post up centers. I know you're a Raptors fan and you have to support your players but let's be reasonable. Teams dont even treat Sweetney like a powerforward, they treat him like a center. If Sweetney was allowed to play his natural position at the big forward spot he'll be able score almost at will. Randolph and Brand I dont think are strong enough to match him in the low post. Brand is especially not a good match against Sweetney considering he's undersized as well(although he'll probably be able to retaliate against him at the other end of the court).

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Got DWade?:</div><div class="quote_post">I've watched a lot more bball then you guys think.</div>

Obviously not enough if you truly believe Bosh can bang with Sweetney.

Now on to Moo2k4...those numbers sure do look impressive but will he be able to do that at the next level? There have been plenty of guys who have been monsters at the college level but have had less than stellar careers in the NBA. Probably the most famous example is Christian Laettner. Some people even say he's the best college basketball player of all time(dont really pay attention to college ball so I dont know) and while he's had a solid NBA career he certainly did not live up to expectations.

Here's an interesting fact...muscle weighs more than fat. That's why he's 270 lbs. I wouldnt be surprised if he came back next year weighing in at 280lbs. I think if Sweetney really wants to be a great player he could be. You can hardly find a match for him among powerforwards. All he has to do is work on getting better at finishing around the basket area since he can pretty much go wherever he wants. He's developing a turnaround jumper as well although chances are he wont need it too often. If he puts the work into it, and we all know Georgetown big men are hardworkers, he could be a player who dominates the paint.

The Hawks have been getting high picks in the lottery for a few years now and things didnt havent gotten any better. I doubt alot of Hawks fans believe this year will be any different. I honestly think Hawks management would consider taking a risk to bring Marbury to Atlanta. Bogut may or may not sell tickets but Marbury definetely will and he fits into their scheme of things whereas Bogut does not. Besides the Hawks wont draft Bogut because he cant play their kind of game. They'll probably draft Marvin Williams. The Bobcats will probably draft Chris Paul. The Hornets will probably pick Bogut up though. Andrea Bargnani is probably more deserving of the number one pick and Martynas has more potential than Bogut. You ask how his defense is suspect and point out his blocks and steals per game. I said his on ball defense is suspect plus he seems to have trouble defending the pick and roll. Bogut at the moment isnt 250. I think right now he weighs in at 240 lbs not a good weight at the center position, average for a powerforward. Bogut will not get much stronger than he already is. He has mobility issues already, adding more weight would make them too big of a problem to deal with. It's quite possible that he's wont get much better than he already is. He could very well be the second coming of Christian Laettner.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
The Hawks have been getting high picks in the lottery for a few years now and things didnt havent gotten any better. I doubt alot of Hawks fans believe this year will be any different. I honestly think Hawks management would consider taking a risk to bring Marbury to Atlanta. Bogut may or may not sell tickets but Marbury definetely will and he fits into their scheme of things whereas Bogut does not. Besides the Hawks wont draft Bogut because he cant play their kind of game. They'll probably draft Marvin Williams. The Bobcats will probably draft Chris Paul. The Hornets will probably pick Bogut up though. Andrea Bargnani is probably more deserving of the number one pick and Martynas has more potential than Bogut. You ask how his defense is suspect and point out his blocks and steals per game. I said his on ball defense is suspect plus he seems to have trouble defending the pick and roll. Bogut at the moment isnt 250. I think right now he weighs in at 240 lbs not a good weight at the center position, average for a powerforward. Bogut will not get much stronger than he already is. He has mobility issues already, adding more weight would make them too big of a problem to deal with. It's quite possible that he's wont get much better than he already is. He could very well be the second coming of Christian Laettner.</div>

Quick thought on the weight thing. Zach Randolph only weighs in at 250 and look what he can do. And another thing about it, Okafor only weighs in at 250 as well, and look what he did this year. Weight doesn't mean nearly as much as you think.

Shaq has had problems defending the pick and roll his entire career. I remember the Spurs series last year, the first two games, the Spurs ran that pick and roll like no other. But, that doesn't make Shaq a bad defender. Just because one aspect of your defense is missing, doesn't mean you can't fix it or simply work without it.

Also, why do the draft Marvin Williams? So he can rot on the bench behind Harrington, Smith, and Childress? He'd have no place on this team. They don't need another SF/SG kind of guy. They need a center. Ebkezie isn't what I would call good and Bogut will be worlds better then him.

 

This thread has strayed from its original topic, which was about trading Marbury. The Knicks could trade Marbury, but I think they're better off with him. They won't get equal value, cause Steph got a pretty bad reputation as a team player right now. IT could turn into a VC trade situation, if the Knicks are bent on trading him. Isiah's priority right now should be replacing the undersized PFs with solid bigmen and swingmen. With Marbury, no move is a good move.
I don't think Atlanta would trade for Marbury. If they wanted a PG that badly, they could just select Chris Paul and avoid taking up the extra cap.
I think Marbury could be traded for a few teams: New Orleans being the most likely (replacing Baron). The major problem with trading Marbury is that he doesn't play to the level of his salary, and he's got a few years still left on his contract.

btw, Sweetney definitely won't be another Oliver Miller, but he won't be an Elton Brand. Depending on his work ethic (even if the extra pounds make him stronger now, his game would benefit if he was faster and had more stamina) he could be an All-Star or a 6th man.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">This thread has strayed from its original topic, which was about trading Marbury. The Knicks could trade Marbury, but I think they're better off with him. They won't get equal value, cause Steph got a pretty bad reputation as a team player right now. IT could turn into a VC trade situation, if the Knicks are bent on trading him. Isiah's priority right now should be replacing the undersized PFs with solid bigmen and swingmen. With Marbury, no move is a good move.
I don't think Atlanta would trade for Marbury. If they wanted a PG that badly, they could just select Chris Paul and avoid taking up the extra cap.
I think Marbury could be traded for a few teams: New Orleans being the most likely (replacing Baron). The major problem with trading Marbury is that he doesn't play to the level of his salary, and he's got a few years still left on his contract.
</div>

New Orleans won't take him. He wouldn't be a good fit for them. They'll likely take someone from the draft to fill that void anyways. Plus, it could hamper the development of JR Smith, something that they don't need to do.

 

[quote name='Got DWade?']Do I have to define the word joke to you

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Joke:

1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.

2. A mischievous trick; a prank.

3.An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.

4.Informal.

(a) Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.

( An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.</div>
It wasn?t funny so I had a little trouble telling whether it was a joke.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And... facts and substance....right.</div>
Yeah, it is at the very least more than what you said.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You claim that marbury isn't selfish, it's going to turn out something like with LBJ except on a larger scale. He dishes, and his teammates can't convert. Then he's just going to go back to being selfish. I used Willis as an example, he's much to old, but still provides leadership and direction for the young guys (*cough* Bogut) so basically it was just to prove your logic of..."every team needs a vetran" wrong, when if you want a vetran you could simply sign the lower-class guys for a lot less money. Whatever, I believe that he's starting to get worse just like GP did, except faster, but thats a matter of oppinion and has no way of being proven except by waiting.</div>
Marbury makes his teammates better that was the point. Ever saw Marbury feed Kurt Thomas for all of those open jumpers? Scouts have said Marbury has been looking for his teammates more than ever. Marbury is not way past his prime in his 40's. He?s a 28 years old vet who?s bet around the league for 9 years. GP was well into his 30's when he started to decline. The fact of the matter is Marbury has given us no reason to suggest he?s declining. He?s consistently putting up 20/8.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That is debatable; we have no idea whether or not green will even be good, he only has a lot of potention, they said the same thing about dorrel wright...he does have a lot of potential but we have no idea how long will it take for him to use it. I don't believe sweetney will ever flourish, he's under-sized, I don't see the comparison to him and brand, and the only people he can beat up on is PF's like haslem...bosh destroyed him, even the stringbean he is. All guards start deteriorating at the age of 30 or around that age, that's only 2 years away for marbury, will green possibly bulk up and "flourish" as you say by then...debatable. My point is marbury will only get worse.</div>
We have no idea whether Bogut will be good either. Dorrell Wright wasn?t projected to be a lottery pick which is a big difference between him and Green. Well again, Knick fans who watch him on a consistent basis know what he will turn into. Even if you did think they deteriorate as soon as they hit 30, what matters is them being effective. Kidd is good and he?s past 30. Brevin Knight is good and he?s past 30 too. So let?s say Marbury declines in 2 years and he puts up 17/7, would that be horrible? Well anything is debatable when dealing with the draft. Most likely every player will improve in 2 years.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, bogut has alot more potential then you give him credit for, he's still really young, I think 20 or 21, and already is the most NBA ready for the draft...but isn't that kind of weird because usually guards are the most ready for the nba...if you look at the past drafts, I guess you don't watch enough basketball .</div>
He does have potential, but the potential you make him out to be as if he?s a lock for the hall of fame. Bogut is putting up good numbers in a very weak conference.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sweetney, IMO is exactly like zbo, he uses his weight to push people around, but like H20 said the hawks play an up-tempo game, but the only thing is Bogut isn't fat, sweetney is. And he only averages 5 rpg and 8 ppg in 19 minutes....a monster...and if you compare Zbo to sweetney, i'd take zach, i'd take brand, i'd even take bosh to bang with him, he isn't as strong as you make him out to be, I've watched a lot more bball then you guys think.</div>
So every single player on the Hawks has to run? What will happen if a good defensive team stops their fast break? Sweetney is a good player. I didn?t say he was a monster. I used those stats to indicate how efficient he is in the little minutes he receives. How could Bosh bang with Sweetney? What is he like 210 pounds? That?s pretty funny. Was this another on of your jokes?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And, I just had to laugh at that quote again, because it's the funniest thing I have ever heard. I really hope I don't have to explain that to you...</div>
You know what. I think Sweetney should lose like 30 pounds. Sweetney operates by using his weight. And is effectvie. Even if you thought he was far, he is putting up great numbers and has the best FG% out of any sophomore in the league.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And You never know when players will break out of their shell, if ever. Some people are late, some guys are early, some never do anything. For example I see dorrel wright taking 4 years to really break out of his shell, but that's all debatable.</div>
Green is better than Dorrell. Green is pretty much a lock for the lottery...Dorrell wasn?t. Wright is playing with the Heat so his development will get hindered to a certain degree. Also The Smith?s were high schoolers thought to be 4 years from contributing, and they contributed already!





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sweetney is very effective, 5 rpg and 8 ppg in 19 minutes..it's not very incredible. It's pretty reasonable for a sophmore but it's nothing special.</div>
Those are solid numbers. You?re acting as if he?s a bum. When given 25-30 minutes, he put up better numbers than Bosh

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, those were all good picks...out of how many ineffective role players that were taken in the draft, there are only a few that turn out to be like shard or manu, etc. So, the 30th pick in the draft isn't all that great if you can't use it.</div>
Actually there?s at least one of those every year. Let?s take a look these past few years:
2004 NBA Draft:
Chirs Duhon
Trevor Ariza
Anderson Varejao

2003 in the second round:
Willie Green
Kyle Korver
Your man Matt Bonner
Maurice Williams

2002 in the second round:
Dan Gadzuric
Carlos Boozer
Ronald Murray
Darius Songaila
Rasual Butler

2001 in the second round:
Gilbert Arenas
Trenton Hassell
Mehmet Okur
Earl Watson
Bobby Simmons

2000 in the second round:
Marko Jaric
Michael Redd
Brain Cardinal
Eduardo Najara
(You don?t have to include them just two valuable role players.)

1999 in the second Round:
Manu Ginobili
Rodney Buford
Lee Nailon
Now those are just a few names I threw out who turned out to be good role players and even a few stars.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The NY thing was a joke, may I reffer you to the top of my post.

I do not come in here to flame you guys, I just want to have an intelligible discussion, and I don't come here to start trouble, im doing exactly what mrj18 does in the raptor forums.</div>
What do I do in the Raptors forum? I haven?t posted there in a while.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And, to H20, the only reason why atlanta doesn't sell tickets is because they lose. The slam dunk champion can sell tickets better then marbury, but if they don't do good no one will come. If they draft Bogut, it will give the atlanta fans something to look forward to. And every good guard wants a dominant big man (why did t-mac come to houston...because it's alot easier to win with Yao) Bogut, is very special, because he's a really good passer, and what kind of guard wouldn't want a guy like bogut in the post to give him the ball when he cuts or is open.</div>
And the slam dunk champ and Marbury on the same team can sell a whole bunch of tickets. McGrady came to Houston because he wanted to get out of Orlando the team with the worst record last year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In conclusion, Bogut will make people want to come, and I think Smith with his dunks can sell tickets to...all the team has to do is win.</div>
Marbury will make people want to come. Green would make people want to come also.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bogut isn't really ovverated, his defense isn't that bad, and plus you can teach better defence, he's still really young and is supposed to reach his prime at 26, so he has a long way to go.</div>
I think Tribute mean that some people are overrating him. I mean some act as if he is a lock for hall of fame. He is a good player, but he still has not dominated in a higher level.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And some people are insecure, I'm not making fun of anyone (NY or fat people, shaq was fat, but he dominated, and I don't see that in sweetney), lighten up. </div>
I don?t think Sweetney can be dominate like Shaq either, but he is a good player and is capable of helping out teams. He is an excellent rebounder (especially considering his size), he has good post moves, he gets to the line, and is a hard worker. Even if you think Sweetney will never be anything more than a simple role player in the league, if he puts up 10/7 for a team, it can certainly help, no?

Everyone else, expect a reply tommorow. I get home late on Sundays and I don't feel like answering everyone elses replies tonight.

 

Moo2K4, about the weight thing you're right. I only mentioned Bogut's weight because you had the wrong weight and said he could bulk up in the offseason. I was just correcting the weight and saying that he wont be able to handle the extra weight so he wont be very effective at the center position.

It's not just the pick and roll Bogut has trouble defending. It's his overall man to man defense is the problem. It's not good on the NCAA level. Needless to say he's going to have serious issues defending the low post in the NBA. He especially has trouble defending athletic players like Okafor and a few other people in this draft like Petro and Splitter.

I dont think the Hawks will draft Bogut simply because he doesnt fit in with what they want to do. They want to run, run, and run some more. Bogut cant do that. Marvin Williams I believe will be able to play powerforward as well so he wont take up Harrington's or Smith's minutes. Marvin Williams is young guy with lots of potential who fits in perfectly with the Hawks system. That's my take on it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">This thread has strayed from its original topic, which was about trading Marbury. The Knicks could trade Marbury, but I think they're better off with him. They won't get equal value, cause Steph got a pretty bad reputation as a team player right now. IT could turn into a VC trade situation, if the Knicks are bent on trading him. Isiah's priority right now should be replacing the undersized PFs with solid bigmen and swingmen. With Marbury, no move is a good move.
I don't think Atlanta would trade for Marbury. If they wanted a PG that badly, they could just select Chris Paul and avoid taking up the extra cap.
I think Marbury could be traded for a few teams: New Orleans being the most likely (replacing Baron). The major problem with trading Marbury is that he doesn't play to the level of his salary, and he's got a few years still left on his contract.

btw, Sweetney definitely won't be another Oliver Miller, but he won't be an Elton Brand. Depending on his work ethic (even if the extra pounds make him stronger now, his game would benefit if he was faster and had more stamina) he could be an All-Star or a 6th man.</div>

You're right about the direction the thread has gone. You're wrong about keeping Marbury though. It wont turn into a Carter situation because Carter was making alot of noise about leaving and simply not playing at a high level. Marbury is still putting up nice numbers and hasnt whined about leaving. The Knicks would be better off trading him. History says the Knicks will get better soon after they do trade him. Trade him! If not for draft picks then try trading him to Cleveland for the Big Z and someone else(McGinnis perhaps?, I'm open to suggestions). Lebron needs some help over there, management doesnt look like they want to resign the Big Z and we need someone to man the center position. With Marbury gone we should have Crawford man the point considering his inconsistency when it comes to shooting the ball. Find a way to bring Wally World back to New York(using expiring contracts or Kurt Thomas)and pray that Houston is healthy.
PG-Crawford
SG-Houston
SF-Wally
PF-Sweetney
C-Big Z
A strange looking starting lineup I know but I think it can work.

The Hawks wouldnt want Marbury because they need a point guard. They would trade for Marbury simply to bring some excitement and optimism back to Atlanta. Sell some more tickets and possibly even lure a free agent in the off season. The Hawks trading for Marbury would be an extremely marketing move.

Sweetney doesnt have any extra pounds. He's already pretty well built, he does run the floor and on the rare occasion he cant post up his man he'll be able to face them up and use his quickness. I dont know why people think he's overweight. He doesnt have a huge gut. He's just a wide guy is all. If his size doesnt affect his game in a negative way than he's just fine. As far as his potential goes if he works hard...sky's the limit...as far as the paint area is concerned.

 

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I look forward to continuing this pointless debate tommorow...

 

why u keep sayin Bogut is overrated. ppl used to say the about lebron that his is overrated but he has great numbers. What if Bogut turns out to be like that?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">- At 20, Andrew Bogut is a potential future NBA First Teamer and perennial All-Star, while 28-year old Marbury has five good years left in him, tops.</div>
Marbury + Sweetney + 8th pick + 30th pick combined have the potential to become better than Andrew Bogut.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">- Michael Sweetney is not our Lord and Savior, he is just simply a guy who ate too many Ho-Ho's as a kid and blimped up to 6-8, 400 lbs. Comparisons to Zach Randolph are silly. Yes, Sweetney only gets around 20 mpg, but when Randolph was a 2nd year player he only got around 16 mpg and was still able to have 30/20 games. Mike Sweetney will be lucky to be... as stated earlier... Oliver Miller.</div>
Who cares what you think of Sweetney, will he be at least a decnt player? Most likely yes. Zach Randolph is very good and was putting up similar numbers to Sweetney as a sophomore. He put up 30/20 games and yet averages the same amount of points as Sweetney shows he is inconsistent where as Sweetney is. When Sweetney gets 25-30 minutes, I beleive he puts something like 15.5 and 8.5. He can develop into a solid player even if you don't think he'll be an all-star.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">- Gerald Green is not Tracy McGrady. In fact, he's not even the best High School player, and maybe even not one of the top two High School players. The only reasons people are talking so highly of him is because of a combination of a great McDonald's game and this "potential" lable that all High School players get. His upside <u>is not</u> as good as Andrew Bogut's. Right now he reminds me more of DeShawn Stevenson than Tracy McGrady anyway. That's what he'll develop into.... DeShawn Stevenson.</div>
Why not? First of all, he is 3 inches taller, I think he has more athleticism, deifinitely more range and is a better defender and has a potential to be a stopper. Why can't Green develop into McGrady. They play similarly have some of the same attributes. I don't see how Stevenson is a better comparison.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">- The Knicks are not the center of the universe. Everyone is not dying to trade away their future just to have a little piece of New York Knick action.</div>
Everyone is aware of that. Although Bogut can become something special, Sweetney, 8th, and 30th picks, and Marbury are better than him


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would the Hawks cripple their cap space on a non-franchise player? The Hawks are not building their team around Marbury. I don't see any team in the league taking a risk on Marbury. Until Marbury changes his approach to how he plays basketball and actually takes the Knicks into the post-season and does some damage in there, the Knicks will be stuck with him.</div>
But how bad are the Hawks? They can't get much worse and Marbury can help them. Also he expires when Smith and Childress become free agents. If this works, than they would be happy to play in Alanta seeing that the team is headed into the right direction.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think the Knicks should figure out a way to sign Antonio Daniels or Joe Johnson. They need a player who's able to play PG, defend the perimeter, but big enough to guard shooting guards. This allows Marbury to move to shooting guard on offense, and then have Jamal Crawford come off the bench. Antonio Daniels manhandled Mike Bibby & Bobby Jackson last night, just keep watching him in the playoffs.</div>
I would rather trade Marbury, let Crawford play his natural position at PG, and get a Joe Johnson-like player eventually. Maybe Houston could come off the bench and be a great 6h man.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Everyone is aware of that. Although Bogut can become something special, Sweetney, 8th, and 30th picks, and Marbury are better than him</div>

Apparently you're not aware of that, because every non-biased party can see that Bogut is worth more than anything New York has.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why not? First of all, he is 3 inches taller, I think he has more athleticism, deifinitely more range and is a better defender and has a potential to be a stopper. Why can't Green develop into McGrady. They play similarly have some of the same attributes. I don't see how Stevenson is a better comparison.</div>

McGrady was a better player out of High School than Green and had a different game, thus he does not remind me anything of Tracy McGrady. He reminds me of Stevenson in the sense that he had a pretty decent year, and then dominated in HS All-Star games in a very weak High-School year. Teams gambled on him, and it didn't pay off.

I guess he could be like McGrady in a sense. He'll be drafted by a crappy franchise, ride the pine for a few years, and then leave when he's actually developed.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares what you think of Sweetney, will he be at least a decnt player? Most likely yes. Zach Randolph is very good and was putting up similar numbers to Sweetney as a sophomore. He put up 30/20 games and yet averages the same amount of points as Sweetney shows he is inconsistent where as Sweetney is. When Sweetney gets 25-30 minutes, I beleive he puts something like 15.5 and 8.5. He can develop into a solid player even if you don't think he'll be an all-star.</div>

Who cares what I think? Eh... well you replied to me, did you not? And I think it's funny you say "Who cares what you think" and then ask me if I think he'll be a decent player.

As for Zach Randolph, don't talk about what you don't know, because it makes you sound stupid. Zach Randolph was never inconsistant. His problem was that he was playing under a coach that never played rookies or second year players. He had about two or three games where he got playing time, and in the one I remember the stats of I believe he got 33/20 or something above 30/20 like that. Everyone saw that he could be that caliber of player, and everyone was predicting it coming. In fact, on the message board I used to post at, he was voted as the mid-first round pick most likely to become an All-Star before his rookie season even began. Nobody says that about Sweetney outside of New York.

By solid player do you mean like an Oliver Miller or like an Elton Brand? Have you ever wondered why you don't see me saying Stromile Swift will be the next Jermaine O'Neal or that Shane Battier will be the next Paul Pierce? You could learn something from me.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury + Sweetney + 8th pick + 30th pick combined have the potential to become better than Andrew Bogut.</div>

If you think that the #8 and #30 picks will be All-Stars, then they have the potential, but it's a lot more farfetched than the potential Bogut has to be a superstar.

<font size="3">Attn NYK posters in this thread: Know when you've lost an argument. Know when you're wrong and are just being biased. You only make yourself look more foolish if you don't accept defeat.</font>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Apparently you're not aware of that, because every non-biased party can see that Bogut is worth more than anything New York has.</div>

Noone has said that the Knicks have anyone better than Bogut. That's number one. Number two you are really starting to overrate Bogut. His man to man defense is mediocre(especially when dealing with athletic players). He will not be a good shot blocker. His quickness or lack thereof will make him a good rebounder but not a monster on the boards. And his post up game wont translate very well in the NBA considering he'll be playing center. He is a great passer though and a great shooter. So it looks like he'll probably become a slightly improved Brad Miller. Then again Miller plays solid defense. So he'll probably be more like Sabonis(great player) but again...Sabonis was an alright defender. So he'll probably be more like Chris Webber after he got injured.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Zach Randolph, don't talk about what you don't know, because it makes you sound stupid. Zach Randolph was never inconsistant. His problem was that he was playing under a coach that never played rookies or second year players. He had about two or three games where he got playing time, and in the one I remember the stats of I believe he got 33/20 or something above 30/20 like that. Everyone saw that he could be that caliber of player, and everyone was predicting it coming. In fact, on the message board I used to post at, he was voted as the mid-first round pick most likely to become an All-Star before his rookie season even began. Nobody says that about Sweetney outside of New York.</div>

Hold on there. If he averaged the same numbers as Sweetney this year...and had these huge games...he had to have a whole load of poor ones. That's basic math. How could he have had 30/20 in one but average Sweetney's numbers without having a bunch of low production games? And just because Sweetney doesnt have the hype machine working for him doesnt mean he wont turn into a good player. Big men like Sweetney take awhile to develop and he is improving by leaps and bounds. When he starts playing his natural position at powerforward and get more experience he'll really start to produce.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think that the #8 and #30 picks will be All-Stars, then they have the potential, but it's a lot more farfetched than the potential Bogut has to be a superstar.</div>

Bogut is not going to be a superstar. He'll be a back up center in an All Star game. That's probably the most he can hope for.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post"><font size="3">Attn NYK posters in this thread: Know when you've lost an argument. Know when you're wrong and are just being biased. You only make yourself look more foolish if you don't accept defeat.</font></div>

And what argument would that be? Some people thought that the Hawks would be enticed to trade their picks for Marbury so they can bring some excitement back to their clubs. Then we talked about whether or not Sweetney was overweight or not and if that affected his game. After that we debated if Bogut was overrated or not. Noone lost any argument. There were disagreements but noone was letting their bias blind them to the truth. By the way arent you like a moderator or something? First in the other thread you say it's ok for someone to post before they read which I thought was well...pretty stupid. Then this...arent you supposed to encourage respectful, constructive conversation? Just wondering is all...

 

I think voodoo and shape said everything , and I'm tired of typing the same things over again.

But H2O,

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Teams dont even treat Sweetney like a powerforward, they treat him like a center. If Sweetney was allowed to play his natural position at the big forward spot he'll be able score almost at will. Randolph and Brand I dont think are strong enough to match him in the low post. Brand is especially not a good match against Sweetney considering he's undersized as well(although he'll probably be able to retaliate against him at the other end of the court).</div>

I have to say that is the funniest thing I ever heard.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Got DWade?:</div><div class="quote_post">I have to say that is the funniest thing I ever heard. </div>

How do you figure? I might be wrong about Randolph(although I seriously doubt it)...but Brand relies more on his athleticism and his quickness than sheer brute strenght. And that's what Sweetney is, a bulldozer in the low post. The only thing that really causes problems for him is the height of the players he's posting up. Elton Brand is about the same height as he is...so wouldnt it stand to reason that Sweetney wont be as bothered by Brand as he would by other taller players? It's simple logic you know.


Alright shapecity you have me convinced. The Hawks wouldnt trade their draft picks to get Marbury because it'll make things difficult to resign their younger players. I still think Marbury will create alot of buzz and give the Atlanta fans some sort of hope but Hawks management would rather keep their caproom. But what if the Knicks threw in their expiring contracts? That'll allow them to bring Marbury in, for all the reasons mentioned already, and still be able to resign their youth core using the caproom provided by the expiring contracts. That seems like a win-win situation.

From the scouting reports I read about Bogut it says he's a mediocre defender. These are very reliable sources so I'm assuming it's true since I havent run across a scouting report that says he was a good defender. There are alot of guys who are smart enough to get around their physical limitations in lower levels of play but arent able to do the same thing when they reach the NBA. His college career looks good but it's not a good idea to draft a player based on that. You have to look at their game and their potential. His lack of athleticism ensures that he wont be a good shot blocker whether its straight up or from the weakside. He has a good jumper, he is a good passer and he should be a good rebounder but he's not the next Shaq or Duncan despite what his college numbers may suggest. His game isnt going to translate very well to the NBA. If he can improve his defense I'd say he'll be a Brad Miller type of player(or Sabonis). He's welcome to prove me wrong though. And when I said the next Christian Laettner I meant in the way that they both had great college careers but not spectacular NBA careers. I think he's going to be a great center in the future but not a superstar like some people think.


Anyway I think we should just trade Marbury for the Big Z.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">How do you figure? I might be wrong about Randolph(although I seriously doubt it)...but Brand relies more on his athleticism and his quickness than sheer brute strenght. And that's what Sweetney is, a bulldozer in the low post. The only thing that really causes problems for him is the height of the players he's posting up. Elton Brand is about the same height as he is...so wouldnt it stand to reason that Sweetney wont be as bothered by Brand as he would by other taller players? It's simple logic you know. </div>



http://www.nba.com/playerfile/elton_brand/?nav=page

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mike_sweetney/?nav=page

If sweetney is even close to the monster you say he is, how come his numbers don't reflect it. I haven't watched many knicks games because the only player I like is Ariza...but if he's half as good as you make him out to be whats wrong with his numbers. Brand is the same weight as sweetney, and is really strong, I don't see Mike bing able to push him around as easily as you say. Brand basically averages a double double, and is an amazing offensive rebounder...and I don't see anything like that in sweetney. And IMO the major downside to sweetney is his height, unless he can develope the skill set like zbo and brand....

And marbury for Z, is a sound idea for both teams IMO.