Steph Is Not Untouchable

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If sweetney is even close to the monster you say he is, how come his numbers don't reflect it. I haven't watched many knicks games because the only player I like is Ariza...but if he's half as good as you make him out to be whats wrong with his numbers. Brand is the same weight as sweetney, and is really strong, I don't see Mike bing able to push him around as easily as you say. Brand basically averages a double double, and is an amazing offensive rebounder...and I don't see anything like that in sweetney. And IMO the major downside to sweetney is his height, unless he can develope the skill set like zbo and brand....</div>
You said it yourself you haven?t watched too many Knick games, so why are you talking about Sweetney a player you?ve seen only a few times? That puzzles me. The key is he can develop into an Elton Brand kind of player. Sweetney plays more center this year and has to divide minutes with 4 more deserving big men (Kurt Thomas, JYD, Malik Rose, and Mo Taylor.) Sweetney is a very good rebounder and he even has a better rebounding rate than Brand or Randolph. Take that into account he?s so very overweight and can barely jump because the Ho-Ho?s he eats limits his jumping ability. Sweetney has a very good work ethic and is working out with Mark Agguire. He?s shown flashes many times such as his 18 point first quarter or his buzzer-beating put back. Developing to an at least 16/10 player is very much possible.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Apparently you're not aware of that, because every non-biased party can see that Bogut is worth more than anything New York has.</div>
Maybe not individually, but put together I don?t know.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">McGrady was a better player out of High School than Green and had a different game, thus he does not remind me anything of Tracy McGrady. He reminds me of Stevenson in the sense that he had a pretty decent year, and then dominated in HS All-Star games in a very weak High-School year. Teams gambled on him, and it didn't pay off.

I guess he could be like McGrady in a sense. He'll be drafted by a crappy franchise, ride the pine for a few years, and then leave when he's actually developed. </div>
So how do you know Green won?t pay off? Green has more physical tools and more potential than Gerald Green. Although McGrady got 18 minutes a game, he put up pretty decent numbers at 7/4/1.5 and a block. That?s pretty decent. He won?t dominate, but he can have a positive impact. We all have our own opinions. You see Green as a Stevenson. I see Bogut as a Chris Kaman.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares what I think? Eh... well you replied to me, did you not? And I think it's funny you say "Who cares what you think" and then ask me if I think he'll be a decent player.</div>
I meant who cares about he weighs 400 pounds, he eats too many Ho-Ho?s etc. So, will he most likely be a decent player?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Zach Randolph, don't talk about what you don't know, because it makes you sound stupid. Zach Randolph was never inconsistant. His problem was that he was playing under a coach that never played rookies or second year players. He had about two or three games where he got playing time, and in the one I remember the stats of I believe he got 33/20 or something above 30/20 like that. Everyone saw that he could be that caliber of player, and everyone was predicting it coming. In fact, on the message board I used to post at, he was voted as the mid-first round pick most likely to become an All-Star before his rookie season even began. Nobody says that about Sweetney outside of New York.</div>
It?s simple mathematic skills:
If he averaged 8 points in 17 minutes and he had some 20/30 point games, it only makes sense that he had some bad ones as well. Nobody said that ever about Sweetney?where did you get that from. When Randolph got minutes, he produced and everyone saw what he was capable of. When Sweetney got minutes, he produced and everyone saw what he was capable of too. May you please provide me with a link or something where we or them said ?Sweetney will become an all-star before his rookie season? Please don?t talk about what you don?t know because it makes you sound stupid.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">By solid player do you mean like an Oliver Miller or like an Elton Brand? Have you ever wondered why you don't see me saying Stromile Swift will be the next Jermaine O'Neal or that Shane Battier will be the next Paul Pierce? You could learn something from me.</div>
Sweetney can develop into an Elton Brand like player. I?m not saying every single year he will put up the exact same numbers as Brand because if that were the case, he?d already be behind, but he can put up 20/10 in the league realistically. When the Knicks thin out their front court this season, Sweetney continues working hard on his game as usual, and he gets more minutes, don?t be surprised if people start talking about him being the most improved player next year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think that the #8 and #30 picks will be All-Stars, then they have the potential, but it's a lot more farfetched than the potential Bogut has to be a superstar.</div>
I didn?t say that. D Wade said they don?t need a 30th pick and it won?t help. I?m saying it could help because you can get a decent role player and in a few instances a star. Marbury will immediately give them 20/8 The 8th pick could be anyone else too not necessarily Green. Marbury will provide instant help, the picks can turn out to potential role players and/or stars and Sweetney a hard working young player putting up solid numbers as a sophomore. All of that combined I think can provide more help for the Hawks over the years than one Andrew Bogut dominating against subpar college competition.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would it give Atlanta hope if Marbury comes in? The Hawks roster is not as good as the Knicks, even with the draft pick they get this year. The team might have more talent, but it's going to take a good 2 or 3 years for the Hawks to gel. Marbury couldn't lead a better Knicks unit into the playoffs, so why would Hawk fans have hope he could lead the Hawks to post season play?</div>
But I think Marbury could add excitement to the Hawks. Plus with Childress and Smith only getting better, they can only go in the right direction. When Marbury has help, he can help a team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Hawks have no use for those expiring contracts, because they have plenty of cap space to spend now and build a core of players around Josh Smith. They would rather go after Kwame Brown, Stromile Swift, or Sam Dalembert this summer than rent Tim Thomas or Penny for a year, or Mo Taylor for 2 years.</div>
You're right, but do you think some of those free agents would want to sign with the team seeing that it is headed into the right direction?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm getting confused by this offer?

On one end you build up Sweetney as a potential 20/10 player, but then down play Bogut as a poor defender, the next Christian Laettner, and only dominant against sub-par college competition. If you believe this is the case, why in the world would you even trade Sweetney straight up for Bogut, let alone throwing in Marbury and your 1st round pick and 30th pick?</div>
I never said he would turn into a Christian Laettner. I know he can turn into a good player and has a bigger upside than Sweetney. Honestly, I originally thought that was way too much for just Bogut.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">The excitement Marbury brings does not justify his paycheck. Also he's not going to bring more excitement than Josh Smith. The Hawks can find a PG to do the same things Marbury does at a fraction of the cost. If they really think adding a former Georgia Tech player in the draft will boost ticket sells, they can always make a deal to land Jarrett Jack.</div>
I know, but putting both Josh Smith and Marbury together will provide much more excitement. Marbury brings 20/8 a year. The last player to do that was Oscar Robertson so I don't know where you can find a PG that does that.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Adding Marbury, Penny, Tim Thomas, or Mo Taylor prevents them from signing a free agent this summer. So that makes absolutely no sense. That's not heading in the right direction, that's putting the Hawks a year behind.</div>
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying could Marbury and company in a Hawks uniform attract free agents despite not having a whole bunch of money to throw at them?

 

mrj18 your stubborn. Shape is right the deal doesnt make sence. your even making up facts to try and dump Marbury. Be loyal to the guy. So what you guys had a bad year just .....Forget abouu-dit.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">The last player to do that was Oscar Robertson?

2004-2005 Allen Iverson 30/8
2002-2003 Gary Payton 20/8
2001-2002 Gary Payton 20/9</div>
I meant average 20 and 8 a game throughout their entire career.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm sure Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, and Sam Cassell have also been close to those numbers as well. Besides it's not about the stats, it's about the W's. Marbury is a career loser, he's been in the league almost 10 seasons. He's been to the playoffs only 4 times. That is pathetic for the amount of money Marbury is making.

After the TWolves traded Marbury they went from 25-25 to 50-32. After the Nets traded Marbury they went from 26-56 to 52-30. After the Suns traded Marbury they went from 29-53 to 62-20 this year. Please don't respond to that track record by saying ALL these other things happened, because I will answer you by saying trading Marbury allowed those things to happen.</div>
I know Marbury has been losing, but some of the situations he was put in like the injury riddled Nets were unfair. Also the ever improving game of KG, and acquisitions such as Wally, a healthy Terrell Brandon, and Anthony Peeler weren't there the last season. The Suns did make it the 1st round and played well against the NBA champs. The next year they did manage to get Q and a more improved Amare. Marbury's been losing throughout his entire career, but I think that's overrated by some unfortunate coincidences.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting michiganave17:</div><div class="quote_post">mrj18 your stubborn. Shape is right the deal doesnt make sence. your even making up facts to try and dump Marbury. Be loyal to the guy. So what you guys had a bad year just .....Forget abouu-dit.</div>
What facts am I making up?? For the Knicks, they will have a legit center, they will also be able to make a deal for Wally and get a perimeter threat to compliment Bogut and Taylor in the low post. This will allow Crawford to play his natural position at the 1, and create for Houston and Wally. We would have 2 post up guys, 2 wing players and a penetrator.

Hawks will be much more improved. They get an 8th and 30th pick. Marbury giving them immediate help contributing to ticket sales and 20/8 a night. He will also have a decent supporting cast with the Josh's improving game, and plus a post up threat, good rebounder and work horse in Sweetney. Sure they add some salary, but I think they can become a better team long term and in the future.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I guess I need to repeat myself...

Please don't respond to that track record by saying ALL these other things happened, because I will answer you by saying trading Marbury allowed those things to happen.</div>
My bad, I missed this.

 

mrj18 you win dude. Im staying out of this debate. This may last till october 15th.

BUt support your home town hero. I thought NY was all about loyalty and Family. Your trying to sell Marbury as being a great player. But if hes so good you would be debating a point to keep him, seeing that you are a NY fan and all. It just seem backwards, your a knicks fan trying to prove that Steph great but at the same time your trying to dump him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting michiganave17:</div><div class="quote_post">mrj18 you win dude. Im staying out of this debate. This may last till october 15th.</div>
No, I can assure you it won't take that long. Tops at October 14th

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">BUt support your home town hero. I thought NY was all about loyalty and Family. Your trying to sell Marbury as being a great player. But if hes so good you would be debating a point to keep him, seeing that you are a NY fan and all. It just seem backwards, your a knicks fan trying to prove that Steph great but at the same time your trying to dump him.</div>
Yeah, NY is about loyalty and family, but we don't seem to be headed into the right direction with Marbury. I love Marbury's game and I do use a couple of his moves in the park, but I would rather have wins than break someones heart. Marbury is a good player, but we need the right fit for the team. Remember when Carisle coached the Pacers? He was a good coach, but Larry Brown was a better fit for the team, right?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting michiganave17:</div><div class="quote_post">mrj18 you win dude. Im staying out of this debate. This may last till october 15th.

BUt support your home town hero. I thought NY was all about loyalty and Family. Your trying to sell Marbury as being a great player. But if hes so good you would be debating a point to keep him, seeing that you are a NY fan and all. It just seem backwards, your a knicks fan trying to prove that Steph great but at the same time your trying to dump him.</div>


They can be great players and NY fans will always back up their player no matter how bad, but if a team is losing we cant keep the same team we have to make the team better and how it will benefit the team, Marbury is the sh** hands down, but he just doesnt fir around the team, if they trade players around him and build around him that would be a diff story, but there not so we have to trade him and see what we can work with.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm getting confused by this offer?

On one end you build up Sweetney as a potential 20/10 player, but then down play Bogut as a poor defender, the next Christian Laettner, and only dominant against sub-par college competition. If you believe this is the case, why in the world would you even trade Sweetney straight up for Bogut, let alone throwing in Marbury and your 1st round pick and 30th pick?</div>

If you're talking to me I didnt mean it the way it sounded. I meant he's going to be Christian Laettner in the sense he isnt going to dominate the way people expected. That's my fault. Christian Laettner is an extreme example I should have used someone else. He's still going to be a good player if he improves his defense. I'd want Bogut because of his versatility(he can shoot, pass and rebound some, play in the low post and high post) and the fact that we could allow Sweetney to move back to the big forward position. Throwing in Marbury would be to get rid of his contract and I wouldnt throw in my 30th pick(this is a very deep draft). Besides I didnt say I wanted Bogut. I said I wanted their draft pick. Andrea Bargnani is the next Dirk Nowitzki

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Got DWade:</div><div class="quote_post">If sweetney is even close to the monster you say he is, how come his numbers don't reflect it. I haven't watched many knicks games because the only player I like is Ariza...but if he's half as good as you make him out to be whats wrong with his numbers. Brand is the same weight as sweetney, and is really strong, I don't see Mike bing able to push him around as easily as you say. Brand basically averages a double double, and is an amazing offensive rebounder...and I don't see anything like that in sweetney. And IMO the major downside to sweetney is his height, unless he can develope the skill set like zbo and brand....

And marbury for Z, is a sound idea for both teams IMO.</div>

This is Sweetney's first year having an important role. He has a tendency to get into foul trouble which limits his minutes and interrupts his rhythm. He's playing completely out of position at center and the Knicks dont feed the low post as often as they should. I never said Sweetney posting up Brand will be easy. He's strong as well and is a pretty good defender but I still give the strength edge to Sweetney. They were guarding each other a few times during the season and Sweetney was able to post him up with success but Elton Brand got the better of him at the other end when Sweetney was guarding him. I dont think you quite grasp how strong Sweetney is. Eddy Curry...the guy nick named Baby Shaq has a hard time posting up Sweetney. He got absolutely nowhere when he tried to whereas Sweetney didnt have any real issues when he posted him up(it was a pretty funny sight). Sweetney is also a good offensive rebounder. If Sweeetney is allowed to play powerforward his height wont be such a problem.

Marbury for Big Z and someone else is indeed a sound idea...thought it up myself.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Noone has said that the Knicks have anyone better than Bogut. That's number one. Number two you are really starting to overrate Bogut. His man to man defense is mediocre(especially when dealing with athletic players). He will not be a good shot blocker. His quickness or lack thereof will make him a good rebounder but not a monster on the boards. And his post up game wont translate very well in the NBA considering he'll be playing center. He is a great passer though and a great shooter. So it looks like he'll probably become a slightly improved Brad Miller. Then again Miller plays solid defense. So he'll probably be more like Sabonis(great player) but again...Sabonis was an alright defender. So he'll probably be more like Chris Webber after he got injured.</div>

I really don't like to speculate, but almost every incoming rookie is scrutinized. Carmello Anthony was a kid with "no perimeter defense", was "inconsistent" and "didn't involve his teammates". It was said of Dwyane that he would ultimately be destined to be a tweener. His ball handling wasn't good enough to be a point guard, and he was too short and streaky to be a shooting guard. I also don't like the comparisons. Jarvis Hayes was Allan Houston, Mike Dunleavy was Larry Bird, and Dajuan Wagner was Allen Iverson. Anyway, I guess my point is that you can't always pick apart a kid's game like that. If his defense was that big of a liability, Utah wouldn't have been a top fifteen team for the better part of the season. Bogut played well against Tim Duncan and Team USA, averaged insane numbers at Utah and was College Player of the Year, and will be the #1 draft pick. I don't see why you wouldn't expect his potential to roof at a Tim Duncan or a Dirk Nowitzki, especially if Gerald Green roofs at a Tracy McGrady.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hold on there. If he averaged the same numbers as Sweetney this year...and had these huge games...he had to have a whole load of poor ones. That's basic math. How could he have had 30/20 in one but average Sweetney's numbers without having a bunch of low production games? And just because Sweetney doesnt have the hype machine working for him doesnt mean he wont turn into a good player. Big men like Sweetney take awhile to develop and he is improving by leaps and bounds. When he starts playing his natural position at powerforward and get more experience he'll really start to produce.</div>

Zach Randolph's case can't just be summed up through stats. It wasn't just his points and rebounds that fluctuated, it was also his minutes. With Rasheed Wallace and a coach who wasn't exactly partial to Randolph, it was hard for him to get into the system. If I understand correctly, Mike Sweetney's time is pretty consistant, meaning that he gets the same 10-20 minutes every night, whereas Randolph's was more sporadic.

The reason I brought Randolph's preseason expectations into the argument was because everyone knew the talent was already there. It was not that he improved between his rookie, sophomore, and third seasons. It was simply the increased playing time and starting role that caused the increase in his stats. Sweetney, on the other hand, is someone who is getting those opportunities to show what he can do. If he were handed the starting job and fifteen more minutes tomorrow, then he probably wouldn't be putting up the 20.1 ppg and 10.5 rpg that Randolph averaged; not right away like Randolph did at least. He can potentially be a good player, I never denied that. However, it's in the same way that Stromile Swift, Eddie Griffen, DaSagna Diop, Rodney White, and Rafael Araujo could all be great players.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And what argument would that be? Some people thought that the Hawks would be enticed to trade their picks for Marbury so they can bring some excitement back to their clubs. Then we talked about whether or not Sweetney was overweight or not and if that affected his game. After that we debated if Bogut was overrated or not. Noone lost any argument. There were disagreements but noone was letting their bias blind them to the truth. </div>

If you honestly don't think that anyone was letting their bias blind them from the truth, then you need to re-read this thread. And the point you made about the thread changing topics was actually one of the reasons I included that 'attn' in my post. As a moderator, I don't want to see this thread stray very far off topic just because certain people want to debate every other sentence and just keep going in circles about non-topic related material, which is exactly what was happening.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way arent you like a moderator or something? First in the other thread you say it's ok for someone to post before they read which I thought was well...pretty stupid. Then this...arent you supposed to encourage respectful, constructive conversation? Just wondering is all...</div>

Yes, I suppose I am "like a moderator or something". Just so long as I know I'm doing a good job of being a moderator, I won't ask for your opinion either, but since you asked, the reason why I said that it wasn't necessary to read every post in the "Jason Kidd thread" was because that thread was just repetitive rubbish with a few intelligent comments found in between. I don't think it was humanly possible to read all of that, and I don't think everyone should have been required to before they posted. As for "arent you supposed to encourage respectful, constructive conversation", indeed that is what I am supposed to encourage, and that is exactly what I was doing by making my post, encouraging the Knicks fans to keep the conversation constructive, which is not where the thread was heading. Don't act like I'm not picking up on what you are subtlely hinting at by sentences like "Just wondering is all....". How about showing some respect for other posters? Nobody is picking a fight with you, so don't pick a fight with me.

 

<font size="7"><u>Let's Stick To The Topic From Here On Out.</u></font>