Unless you care about, y'know, actually winning and stuff. I can see why you wouldn't want to watch that stupid drafting thing that TNT did with Shaq and Barkley, picking their teams for what used to be the Rookie/Sophomore game, but it was pretty damn revealing that he was picked TWELFTH. Barkley jumped all over Kyrie Irving with his first pick (showing that Barkley is shrewder than he lets on), and Rubio and Lin (and even Norris Cole, I think) went before Wall.
Ricky ain't sniffing no jock! Ricky may be crazy but he ain't stupid. And George hasn't been playing so great lately.
Despite his god awful statistics, hes absolutely a contributor right now and it would be hard for me to imagine him not having a pretty lengthy NBA career. Rasta posted the Warriors +/- numbers, which he is far and away the leader in. Plus/minus ought to be taken with a grain of salt, but the guy leads the team every single game in +/- and hes also got the highest +/- of any player not on the Heat, Bulls, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Thunder, Mavs, Spurs, Grizz, Magic. Not bad for a guy playing on a shitty team, and there's certainly a trend there. His offensive game isn't as bad as his numbers suggest, actually. Hes really not a good athlete so he struggles finishing right under the rim but hes been scoring in post up situations where matchups are in his favor and the last month or so hes been hitting a 17 foot J with regularity. Defensive rebounding is god awful, though I've read the team actually rebounds better when hes in. The misconception about him is that people think hes like a mini-DeAndre Jordan in that hes a high flyer who just blocks shots. Hes really not all that athletic but records insane block numbers based on tremendous length and timing. Although hes a great shotblocking/altering presence, his rotations and positional defense are even more impactful. Hes always in the right place, positioned correctly, and this is even as hes gotta cover for his own man in addition to Curry/Monta/David Lee/NAte Robinson as they are fugging awful defensive players. Hes likely a career reserve, which sounds disappointing for a 6th overall pick, but hes the kind of first big man off the bench that a championship team would have. Hes basically the second coming of Theo Ratliff, probably about 10 lbs heavier though. Unfortunately hes forced to play C again this season when hes really a PF because Kwame got injured. I can't say GS fans are overjoyed with that pick, but hes one of the most impactful players on the W's roster. You can't look at PER with him because hes such an incredible defensive player and his offensive numbers are awful. GS is in need of core pieces whereas Udoh is a luxury or a finishing touch on a contending team. As I said, I think coaches like Doc Rivers, Popovic, Carlisle, Thibs, etc. would love to give him 20 mpg as their backup 4/5. Hes not flashy in the least but hes a winning player. Unfortunately in our situation a guy like Monroe, who is a beast numbers-wise but hollow as far as producing wins, would have been the better pick.
+/- is such a ridiculous stat. Such a stretch to bring it up, especially for a player who only averages 20 minutes a night on a team without a dearth of big men. +/- is a stat that says more about a rotation than anything. Batum has the 8th best +/- on the Blazers. That stat has no credence whatsoever and I've always felt that way.
I appreciate your input, but fans of teams love overvalueing young prospects. Myself included. Solid contributors should get more minute than 20 a night on a losing team that lacks big men. It could be that Mark Jackson is just a lousy coach and Udoh is a lot better than he's being allowed. But, a big man who is barely shooting 40% despite a majority of shots coming in the paint isn't a solid contributor in my book.
I am so fucking sick and tired of people saying this like it is a little nugget of wisdom. Yes, +/- has its limits. If you're platooning in with someone great, then your +/- will be inflated. If you're a really shitty bench-playing three point shooter, then your +/- might get inflated because you're subbed in on offense at the end of quarters and off again on defense (so, conversely, good defensive players can get hurt by this). I get that. (And incidentally, I have hereby offered way more analysis than every single moron who spouts "+/- is a meaningless stat!") BUT: it's the ONLY stat that has any possibility of capturing defensive contributions or, in general, contributions to making the team run smoother (like setting bone-crunching picks, or boxing out the other team's best rebounder without actually getting the rebound yourself, but allowing a teammate to pad his rebound stats). And if you're BY FAR AND AWAY THE BEST ON YOUR TEAM, and you're NOT a good offensive player, then that says something, don't you think? Or can you explain that away? (Incidentally, I knew he was a contributor because I've actually watched Warriors games and heard the announcers comment on how important he's become to the team.)
+/- is doesnt have credence with me. Curse all you want, it just doesn't carry weight with me, basketball is way too much of a team oriented game. If he was such a difference maker he'd be earning more burn than 20 minutes a game. Udoh is a help side shot blocker, thats about it. Also, save the implication that I don't watch Warriors games. I've seen them several times this year.
I don't think there's any way Anthony Davis doesn't go #1. He could snap his leg like Kenyon Martin and still go #1. That said, while I agree that you're not getting LBJ/Melo/Wade/etc in the top of the draft, the fact that at 20 you might have the choice b/w Austin Rivers, Terrence Ross and Tony Wroten is pretty damn good. I really would like Tony Wroten. I've liked his game since he was an illegally-playing sophomore in HS.
I think his post D is great as well. He has a solid base to keep guys from getting deep on him, good length. Your right though, he doesn't give anything outside of that.
plus-minus is a perfectly good tool to use, in combination with everything else, to get a picture of player value. As Rasta says, there's no other stat that even plausibly accounts for beneficial things like defense (judging defense by blocks and steals is akin to judging offense by number of dunks...it's only the most visually spectacular version), spacing, passes that help lead to baskets even if not the pass directly before the score, passes that lead to shooting fouls drawn, etc. It also sets as a useful baseline the player's actual surrounding talent...whether you're on a good team or a bad team, you can either make the situation better or not. It accounts for context, removing lazy arguments like "They would be awesome even if they didn't have him" or "They'd suck with or without him." It shows how much better they are (or aren't) with him or how much more they'd suck (or wouldn't) without him.
If Udoh was such a difference maker he would be averaging more than 20 minutes a night. +/- doesnt hold water with me. Too much of a team game, I've said from day 1. I'd like to know who rotates in with him when they go on these runs? Nate Robinson, Brandon Rush?
