Then really, why should ANY stat hold water to you, with it being such a team game? Assists? Meh, team game. Need guys to hit shots. Rebounds? Meh, need guys to miss shots. Need teammates to block out their guys also. Points? Need teammates to distract attention. Need teammates to set picks, etc. I think Minstrel said it best. it is a perfectly good tool to use, in combination with everything else.
Its not black and white like that. There's 5 guys on a court per team. Why should a guy like Cole Aldrich's stats be effected in a positive way just because he checks in with James Harden who gets hot and goes off for 15 straight points. Also, why should Harden's stat be effected because Aldrich let some scrub opponent score on him in consecutive trips. Its just a silly stat. Your right its a tool to use in combination with everything else. Unfortunately for Udoh, he sucks at everything else.
What do you mean "such a difference-maker?" No one's saying he's a franchise player or major impact player. The fact that he is playing 20 minutes per game should tell you that he's not garbage. 20 minutes per game seems like a solid contributor. There's also the possibility that he's not being played as much as he should...certainly people, including you (and me), say that Batum isn't playing enough minutes, so the idea that the amount of minutes a coach plays someone is the ultimate arbiter of their value doesn't seem very reasonable.
The poster who linked up a stat saying he lead the team in +/- like it was significant. The guy has a PER of 10 and barely shoots 40% despite almost all of his point coming from in the paint. He's a better than average defender, but not good enough to get off the bench on a team void of big men. In the discussion of solid contributing lottery picks of 2010 draft (like we were discussing) he's the worst of the lot. He's not 'already' a solid contributor. If a 10 PER and nothing but a couple blocked shots is what you have to show from lottery pick, thats a bust in my book. I don't see much upside with Udoh either.
It is significant, it just doesn't mean he's a star. You seem to be misunderstanding the point of something like this. The point is not that +/- provides a direct mapping of the best players in the league...that the #1 player in +/- is the #1 player in the NBA and the #2 player in +/- is the #2 player in the NBA. PER doesn't give you that kind of mapping either, because it almost completely ignores defense. The point of stats like this is that they can point to hidden value that the traditional numbers don't display. The fact that Udoh has such a good +/- doesn't mean he's the best player on the team, it means that he may well provide a fair amount of value to his team that isn't reflected in the things that are traditionally easier to measure (like points and rebounds). He's the worst of solidly contributing lottery picks, most likely, but he may be a solid contributor, which was the claim being made. That said, +/-, being an indirect measure of value, takes a few years to really stabilize for a player, so it's probably best not to make any conclusive determinations based on it. I don't take the position that he definitely is a useful player...PER is probably a better short-term indicator of value. But I think you're overstating the case to claim +/- is meaningless and no stock whatsoever should be placed in it. It's one of our only statistical glimpses into things that cannot be directly measured and, as such, has a place in discussions.
^ When discussing star players that play a major role on their team, sure +/- has a little bit of merit for the effect they can have on their team. But, when discussing a 20mpg guy that can't really do much aside from block shots it just doesn't hold water. Your hypotheticals are making my head spin. If you don't take the position that Udoh's a useful player than why are you breaking this down point by point? I think your more argueing against my statement that +/- is a bogus stat. Which, you yourself has stated that it is a good stat when taken into account with other stats. Bingo, Udoh outside of his +/- is a horrible player statistically.
Perhaps Mark Jackson doesn't pay attention to +/- and Nate McMillan does? Batum is a difference maker who has the 8th best +/- on the team. Which, largely (up until about 5 games ago atleast) had to do with the units Batum was playing with.
That's exactly what I'm arguing, though in a pretty casual way. I just find advanced stats a pretty interesting part of sports. Udoh, himself, I'm pretty agnostic on. I don't necessarily think he's a terribly valuable player, but his +/- leaves me open to the possibility that he might be. Which means he's a horrible offensive producer. The question, which +/- raises, is whether he derives value from other things that rate and counting stats don't measure. To be honest, I think pure +/- does have flaws, largely the one you mentioned...the specific teammates that the player in question tends to play with. I have seen Adjusted +/- metrics that attempt to control for that, which I find more useful. But I don't think it's a silly stat or concept, even unadjusted.
There are political factors. Biedrins is a complete fugging nightmare, but they keep starting him to retain some semblance of trade value. Plus Udoh is really a PF and since Kwame got injured he plays C most of the time even though hes undersized. Interestingly enough, Udoh got a start due to a Biedrins injury a few games ago and put up 19/8. In 13 games in February hes averaging 24 mpg and his FG% is at a much more respectable 46%. All the while Mark Jackson has been running a few plays a game for Udoh in the post and he ordered him to work on the mid-range J daily. Udoh's been taking and hitting 15 footers in games at a much higher rate the last few weeks. He'll probably never be an impressive pts/rebs/FG% guy but he was making an impact even with dismal offense before. If he maintains consistently adequate offensive production hes undoubtedly a contributor. Not a star but certainly worthy of being in NBA rotations.
It's interesting that a lot of the players from this draft have made a jump in usefulness this year. Such as... Code: 1 Washington Wizards John Wall PG, 6-4, 195 Kentucky He's had an amazing effect on the Wiz so my opinion of him as all-flash, no substance has to be reevaluated. Code: 5 Sacramento Kings DeMarcus Cousins C, 6-11, 290 Kentucky Still a fuckup and inefficient, but the talent cannot be denied. Code: 7 Detroit Pistons Greg Monroe F, 6-11, 240 Georgetown Works well with Drummond. Skilled. Code: 8 Los Angeles Clippers Al-Farouq Aminu F, 6-8, 210 Wake Forest No longer looks like a total bust! Code: 10 Indiana Pacers Paul George F, 6-9, 185 Fresno State I said there wasn't an All-Star in the bunch and he's just proved me wrong! Danny Granger being out pushed him to be more of a scorer. Code: 13 Toronto Raptors Ed Davis F, 6-9, 215 North Carolina Now a starter for an actually good team. Code: 15 Milwaukee Bucks Larry Sanders F, 6-9, 205 Virginia Commonwealth REALLY made a huge leap. Maybe the Bucks' most valuable player. Code: 18 Oklahoma City Thunder Eric Bledsoe G, 6-1, 190 Kentucky Russell Westbrook II? Code: 19 Boston Celtics Avery Bradley G, 6-3, 180 Texas His value was enough to drive Ray Allen away. Code: 27 New Jersey Nets Jordan Crawford (Traded to Atlanta) G, 6-4, 195 Xavier Quite the scorer for the Wiz. Code: 28 Memphis Grizzlies Greivis Vasquez G, 6-6, 210 Maryland The steal of the draft? Has had player of the week in the ENTIRE Western Conference! HERE'S who we should have taken instead of Babbitt or E-Will. Code: 40 Indiana Pacers Lance Stephenson G, 6-5, 225 Cincinnati Didn't look so great yesterday but has become valuable to the Pacers Code: 55 Utah Jazz Jeremy Evans F, 6-9, 190 Western Kentucky He was actually looking better last year, but still, the Jazz can always pick useful players in the second round.
LOL@Fez and Zags. I only find it funny because we now have a 12-page thread talking about Bricky Rubio. But Wall is overrated (he's good, but still overrated IMO), so it could only be a matter of time before this is true. But I'm doubting it at the moment.
Yes, I believe so. I remember when we were rumored to be after Bledsoe last year. Wish we would have been able to nab him. I recall several posters here bagging on the possibility of acquiring him, saying he was garbage.
I wanted Bledsoe; my Clipper buddy was really high on him his rookie year, and I definitely wanted what he could do. He was pretty out of control back then, but like most kids, has settled down nicely.
