The Miami Experiment

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by espn_hall_of_famer, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    I've been saying all along that this Miami Experiment with Bosh, Wade and LeBron simply doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this before and it doesn't work as good as it should on paper due to the lack of chemistry these guys usually have.

    For one of the first times since the LBJ/Bosh move to Miami, we have a good example of why Miami won't win the title, and that is the fact that Brazil with Alex Garcia, Marcus Souza, Marcelo Huertas, and two NBA role players in Barbosa and Splitter managed to lead the majority of the game yesterday and take them to the final possession (against five all-stars like Rose, Durant, Billups, Odom, etc). It's called chemistry folks.

    How many times have we seen this Miami experiment before with similar US teams?

    2002 - US Team - beat three times by Argentina, Spain and Yugoslavia with all of 2 max NBA starters on their rosters beat the loaded US team with Pierce, Reggie Miller, Baron Davis, Shawn Marion, Jermaine O'Neal, etc.

    2004 - US Olympic team - Beat by Puerto Rico, Lithuania and Argentina, having starters like TIm Duncan, Dwane Wade, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson and Amare.

    2006 - US Team - knocked out by Greece with no stars of note that I can remember, but that team had Kobe, Melo, Wade, and LeBron.

    So we have a number of examples where fielding a roster of all-star caliber players don't beat out the chemistry of a team that plays team basketball. Not saying the US team will lose half their games or that Miami won't make the playoffs. But don't start giving the US team the gold and don't start thinking Miami is a favorite to get to the finals when all they've got are three star players on the same roster, no history and chemistry to actually translate three great players into wins on the W/L record.
     
  2. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Conspiracy Theorist

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    When have we "seen this before"? You're talking about teams put together to play together for a one time tournament......

    This isn't merely a roster of all-star caliber players....its having 2 of the top 3 players in the game with a top 5 PF together......its hardly comparable.
     
  3. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Conspiracy Theorist

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    If anything, I would compare this more to the Shaq-Kobe L*kers. Two of the top players in the game with a bunch of role players.
     
  4. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    Sorry, I suppose the threesome of Tim Duncan, Dwane Wade and LeBron James that coudn't play team basketball together isn't comparible to "2 of the top 3 players in the game with a top 5 PF together"? I'll have to go see how I can get closer than that.
     
  5. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Conspiracy Theorist

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    For a one time tournament.
    In international competition where the rules are different from the NBA.
    In a foreign country.
    Where they had a summer to practice together.
    Where the entire team was composed of all-stars and superstars.
    Against teams who have played with each other for years.

    and so forth and so on.
     
  6. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Bad comparison. LBJ, Wade, and Bosh will have a full training camp, preseason, and regular season to build chemistry. How long has Rose, Billups, Durant, etc played together? A few months? You can't compare the Olympics to an NBA regular season. It's apples to oranges. Yao sucks in Olympic basketball, but he's one of the best players in the league when he's healthy. FIBA is completely different from the NBA.
     
  7. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Conspiracy Theorist

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    No, you're mistaken, its the same thing!

    :NOTMARIS:
     
  8. Stevenson

    Stevenson Old School

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    Wilt, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor failed.

    Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton tanked

    Over-stuffed, jam-packed 2000 era Blazers choked

    Just sayin....
     
  9. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Conspiracy Theorist

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    sure, NBA championships are never guaranteed. We already all knew that though.
     
  10. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    I won't say that the premise that 82 games will get you some chemistry that we just don't see in the short time span that these guys have in these FIBA games or the Olympics.

    But it's the premise by some of these sheep those simply don't understand chemistry that spout off that Miami is somehow a 65+ win team out of the blue by adding two good players.

    And I think the biggest difference between Kobe and Shaq is simply Shaq. Shaq was more relevant to the game in his prime than anyone playing today. He single-handedly gave Wade a ring (how many rings does Wade have without riding Shaq coattails?). And Kobe has really struggled to get rings without the help of Shaq, it simply shows the difference a dominant center makes to the game (just like how many rings other teams won without Kareem or Parrish on their teams in the 80s).

    I think the Jordan/Pippen comparison would be better since Boston's version of this had Rondo at the PG and had KG/Piece instead of LBJ/Wade (not quite up to that caliber), and LA had Shaq as I mentioned. So Boston with two great wing players and a bunch of role players might be a better fit, but then LBJ/Wade aren't quite up to MJ's level. And most important, even with the Chicago experiement of having two of the best players in the league along with role players, it still took them four years of playing together until that group had the chemistry.

    So really the best example of a loaded roster with a couple top-10 players without a dominant center or PG winning a championship came after four years of chemistry.
     
  11. Blazer_Mullet_Man

    Blazer_Mullet_Man Member

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    What in the world, self-professed math expert? More silly conclusions based on nothing but odd variables.

    How long does Team USA practice?
    How long is an NBA preseason and season?
    How much time will the three have playing before entering the playoffs?

    Miami had 47 wins and made the playoffs and just added two of the best players at their position - in the entire league. Ya, right. Doesn't hold water.

    I'll give you an example of just a few teams who had three key players who could score and run plays through, who sorta did ok:

    2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers

    2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers

    2007-08 Boston Celtics

    2006-07 San Antonio Spurs

    2005-06 Miami Heat

    2004-05 San Antonio Spurs

    2003-04 Detroit Pistons

    2002-03 San Antonio Spurs

    2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers

    2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers

    1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers

    1998-99 San Antonio Spurs

    1997-98 Chicago Bulls

    1996-97 Chicago Bulls

    1995-96 Chicago Bulls

    1994-95 Houston Rockets

    1993-94 Houston Rockets

    1992-93 Chicago Bulls

    1991-92 Chicago Bulls

    1990-91 Chicago Bulls

    1989-90 Detroit Pistons

    1988-89 Detroit Pistons

    1987-88 Los Angeles Lakers

    1986-87 Los Angeles Lakers

    1985-86 Boston Celtics

    1984-85 Los Angeles Lakers

    1983-84 Boston Celtics

    1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers

    1981-82 Los Angeles Lakers

    1980-81 Boston Celtics

    1979-80 Los Angeles Lakers
     
  12. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    Be impossible not to see a post of yours now after your repeated absurd posts and not think, "Need another banana?"
     
  13. EL PRESIDENTE

    EL PRESIDENTE Conspiracy Theorist

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    Yeah, its not instant. But the thing is the talent on the team is unreal because the guys are at their prime and they have really good role players and vets. Guys like Juwan Howard, Big Z, Eddie House, James Jones, Mike Miller, etc...they don't need the glory...just do the little things.
     
  14. Blazer_Mullet_Man

    Blazer_Mullet_Man Member

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    BTW: you do realize the team also has some legit support players, right?

    Ilgauskus: 11/6/4
    Haslem: 10/8

    House, Chalmers....

    I tell you this, math man. You subscribe to some odd numbers....

    For someone who works with numbers for a living and stares at the certificates on his office walls, you sure talk in circles. I've seen very few opinions from people who think a title is assured or they go 65 wins. All you state is that you disagree with an opinion that is rarely stated. Weird. Very weird. Too weird.

    I am one who thinks they are going to be very, very good. 55-60 regular season wins, good and they turn it on in the playoffs and have a very good chance of winning it all. You have no evidence whatsoever that they won't and can't play with chemistry. Besides, you should know "chemistry" is subjective and all it takes to win is outscoring your opponent. They most certainly have the players to accomplish that on any given night.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  15. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    In all fairness now, it was getting a little slow, so I thought I'd throw a topic out. Doesn't mean I ran a quantitative analysis that yielded result to present. In fact, it doesn't even mean I believe the premise. It just means I posted it to see the different reactions to chemistry as from others' views based on their past observations. I think the training camp, pre-season and 82-game regular season is a good take.
     
  16. Blazer_Mullet_Man

    Blazer_Mullet_Man Member

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    "I've been saying all along that this Miami Experiment with Bosh, Wade and LeBron simply doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this before and it doesn't work..."
     
  17. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    "I've been saying to this group of guys riding in my card all along the drive that this Miami Experiment boat I bought with Bosh, Wade and LeBron painted on the side just doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this type of engine before and it doesn't work..."

    How's that, it's all in interpretation.
     
  18. mook

    mook The 2018-19 season was the best I've seen

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    I think the Shaq/Kobe Lakers is a pretty good comparison. LeBron/Wade and Shaq/Kobe, with Bosh in the Glen Rice role.

    Another one is the second three-peat Bulls. Jordan, Scottie and Rodman. Jordan was a little better than LeBron, Scottie was a little worse than Wade, and Rodman wasn't as good as Bosh.

    On paper, it seems like LeBron plays the facilitator role that Pippen played, Wade plays the primary offensive weapon, and Bosh...well, there's probably the big problem with that comparison. Rodman's game was perfectly suited for doing everything but scoring. Bosh's isn't.

    At some point I think they'll have to parlay one of these guys into better-suited role players. But I think they can make it work for a year.
     
  19. Blazer_Mullet_Man

    Blazer_Mullet_Man Member

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    Coo-coo for coco puffs....
     
  20. espn_hall_of_famer

    espn_hall_of_famer Active Member

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    I suppose the real question when we take teams like the Kobe/Shaq Lakers or the Bulls (or any of Mullet Man's 50 examples) is how many of those teams won a title in the very first year that the star players in question played together? Any of them? The recent Boston team did and that was really the only decent example I could remember, and some say that was a fluke of the East that year and not so much their sheer star power.

    As mentioned, MJ and Pippen didn't win one until they had four years of chemistry. Shaq and Kobe didn't win one for like 3-4 years after they began playing together. I'm just not sure we have a lot of examples of loading all-star starters on a team and having them come out of the chute winning a title. Am I missing one there?
     

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