<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey...Kobe is an SG, and so was MJ. Odom is an SF, and so was Scottie. Who was their center? Not Shaq...they didn't need a center. Horace Grant contributed well on defense and passed the ball well, also...wait...sounds like something Vlade will do this year</div>Point missed, try reading it again: MJ never won it alone and neither will Kobe. MJ had his Scottie Pippen and supporting cast. It was a team effort. You seem to think that Kobe will win it alone as if one player alone is capable of defeating a team of 5. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">You're right. There isn't a thing wrong with defending Shaq,but you come to a point where it all seems like nothing but rhetoric from a severely biased fan. No one ever said Shaq wasn't an all-time great but the fact remains Shaq isn't worthy of the best player tag anymore. He is a casualty of his own hype and buying into this image created by the media. My point was you can't spin Shaq into something he isn't anymore. Shaq does what he wants regardless if it harms the team,that is very apparent. He is very selfish and all about himself. That, in and of itself,puts him a few rungs below KG.</div>Yeah shaq was a bad guy. A big part of the Laker dynasty yet he hurts the team. 4 Finals appearances in the last 5 years. What a bastard. I mean KG doesn't make it to the Finals or probably won't be part of a dynasty but he's a good guy ya know. He tries. That right there makes him the greatest player today.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah shaq was a bad guy. A big part of the Laker dynasty yet he hurts the team. What a bastard. I mean KG doesn't make it to the Finals but he's a good guy ya know. He tries.</div> So you defend Shaq's behavior? You refute anything I pointed out about him? You are saying the way he has acted and things he has done the last two years have been good for the Lakers? And exactly how many championships did they win during those two years? Shaq was the major reason for the Lakers three titles,however the last two-three seasons he has outlived his usefulness in LA because of the fact he put his supposed 'needs' above and beyond that of the team. There is no way you can counter any of that. He may end up being reborn in Miami,but the fact remains his last couple years in LA he was nothing but a distraction and disruption.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">So you defend Shaq's behavior? You refute anything I pointed out about him? You are saying the way he has acted and things he has done the last two years have been good for the Lakers? And exactly how many championships did they win during those two years? Shaq was the major reason for the Lakers three titles,however the last two-three seasons he has outlived his usefulness in LA because of the fact he put his supposed 'needs' above and beyond that of the team. There is no way you can counter any of that. He may end up being reborn in Miami,but the fact remains his last couple years in LA he was nothing but a distraction and disruption.</div>Dude the guy wins. Some teams in this league have never won a title. Don't you think the clippers would put up with his s--- just so they can finally bring a title to their franchise? cmon man... Also I'm not a biased fan I just have respect for any of the games greatest players. I believe that Shaq doesn't put in effort and still dominates the game and puts up the numbers. The only time he needs to try is when it counts, the Playoffs. And when your advisary Tim Duncan expresses that he's happy that your outta his conference, that says a lot right there. You won't here that about Garnett. The crown of the Western Conference officially belongs to Tim Duncan and was handed down from Shaq after he left. Not to KG. About his attitude in a L.A: maybe L.A. was winning too much but when your a dynasty and make Finals appearances, IMO, that's better than having to lose like a lot of franchises in the NBA.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq is 58% from the field (#1 in the NBA, 63% against the Pistons in the Finals). KG is 49% in FG. KG took about 700 more attempts this season from the FG than Shaq and Shaq came only 3ppg behind him. KG also led in FG attempts with (#1)1,611, Shaq had 948(didn't have enough to rank in the top 50). I have a post here that explains better. In other words, because Shaq was 58% and KG was 49%, Shaq was able to keep up with KGs PPG because he was more accurate rather than having to take more shots. The only reason Shaq's PPG dropped were because he was sharing the ball more with the team. His 58% FG% (again, #1 in the NBA) shows that he is the player with the best chance of scoring. You and I may have an opinion but the numbers don't lie.</div> FG% and shot attempts don't determine how good of a player you are... If you really believe that, do you also believe Corey Maggette is the best G/SF in the league? His FGA's are a little under Shaq, and is a half a point away on a per game note. If this was a way to judge a player and he could match a guy who shoots 5feet from the basket on a FGA/Point, Corey Maggette would be the greatest player of all time.. But like everyones been saying, that ISN'T what it takes to be the "best player in the league." BTW: Corey might match Shaq on the FGA per points note, but his FG% is only 45%.... That's how bad Shaq shot FT's last year. So do you still think this is a way to determine who the best player is...? cause if you do you're basically saying Maggette > garnett, Kobe, T-Mac, Jermaine, etc..
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phreeze:</div><div class="quote_post">FG% and shot attempts don't determine how good of a player you are... If you really believe that, do you also believe Corey Maggette is the best G/SF in the league? His FGA's are a little under Shaq, and is a half a point away on a per game note. If this was a way to judge a player and he could match a guy who shoots 5feet from the basket on a FGA/Point, Corey Maggette would be the greatest player of all time.. But like everyones been saying, that ISN'T what it takes to be the "best player in the league." BTW: Corey might match Shaq on the FGA per points note, but his FG% is only 45%.... That's how bad Shaq shot FT's last year. So do you still think this is a way to determine who the best player is...? cause if you do you're basically saying Maggette > garnett, Kobe, T-Mac, Jermaine, etc..</div>A player that averages 58%-FG 21ppg and can keep that up for a season says: this player didn't need many possesions to achieve 21ppg. They make the most outta every possesion. Most sports analyst and NBA Historians agree that the best way to win is to score points. Shaq is the best player in the NBA capable of making the most of every possesion from the field In Shaq's case it proves that he is the hardest player to stop from scoring because he racks up a lot of ppg and has been averaging 56% in his career(58% last season). As far as the maggette comparison, the numbers just say that he's made better use of his attempts than Kobe has, not that he has a better shot. FG% says a lot about a player, like a batting average says about a hitter: the higher the % the better they are capable of making the most outta every attempt. Is Ichiro a greater hitter than bonds? no, but his batting average says that he makes the most outta every attempt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phreeze:</div><div class="quote_post">FG% and shot attempts don't determine how good of a player you are... If you really believe that, do you also believe Corey Maggette is the best G/SF in the league? His FGA's are a little under Shaq, and is a half a point away on a per game note. If this was a way to judge a player and he could match a guy who shoots 5feet from the basket on a FGA/Point, Corey Maggette would be the greatest player of all time.. But like everyones been saying, that ISN'T what it takes to be the "best player in the league." BTW: Corey might match Shaq on the FGA per points note, but his FG% is only 45%.... That's how bad Shaq shot FT's last year. So do you still think this is a way to determine who the best player is...? cause if you do you're basically saying Maggette > garnett, Kobe, T-Mac, Jermaine, etc..</div>A player that averages 58%-FG 21ppg and can keep that up for a season tells me this much: this player didn't need many possesions to achieve 21ppg. They make the most outta every possesion. Most sports analyst and NBA Historians agree that the best way to win is to score points. Shaq is the best player in the NBA capable of making the most of every possesion from the field. I dunno what you mean by FGA being important. I just said that Shaq's FG% was so good that he didn't take many FG attempts last season but was still able to post up numbers comparable to the top leading scorers. Ironically, the top leading scoreres also lead in Field Goal Attempts . I also said that Shaq is so good that if he would've had KG's or T-Mac's attempts he would've won a scoring title (because he is better from the field). You get caught up in the glimpse of the nice PPG but you don't realize with a 41%-FG you need a lot of attempts to hit 28ppg like T-Mac did and thus T-Mac is also #2 in FGAs with 1,611. That's why Shaq is gonna have an explosive season because he's gonna be getting more attempts and since he's 58%-FG he's on point to average alot, ex: with 1,611 like T-Mac he will have around 45ppg. In Shaq's case it proves that he is the hardest player to stop from scoring because he racks up a lot of ppg and has been averaging 56% in his career(58% last season). It also tells us that Shaq's offense never really been challenged to his abilities because 58% is an unsually high FG% for a player. As far as the maggette comparison, the numbers just say that he makes better decisions on whether he's in a position to score or not; he's not more talented than Kobe but he knows his limits FG% (or any %) says a lot about a player, like a batting average says about a hitter: the higher the % the better they are capable of making the most outta every attempt (in this case, at bat). Is Ichiro a greater hitter than bonds? no, but his batting average says that he makes the most outta every attempt. But a % holds no significance if it's not proven, ex: you go 2 at bats and you get 1 basehit you avg .500 There are other % that determine other areas of a player's game (as far as stats go, not other things like clutch emotion etc) and you are misunderstood when you think that I mean FG% determines a great overall player. My Final comment, Why I think Shaq is still the Greatest playing: Because scoring is the best way (and the only official way) to win, you'd think Shaq at 58%-FG (#1 in the NBA) is the best person capable of scoring. He's taken a lot of attempts in his career that proves his FG% is not a fluke. This also means he's the hardest player to stop from scoring and deserves to be credited as the greatest player still playing because scoring points wins games. Tim Duncan, arguably the most dominant player in the West now, says he couldn't be happier that Shaq is outta the West, and believe me, that guy is speaking for the entire Western Conference. Dre thinks that other things besides scoring defines a great player but by the rules putting the ball in the rim is the official way to win and no one does it quite like Shaq. This was also in response to realdeal's Shaq < Odom Grant Butler Divac which I still think is crazy...that's like saying MJ or Wilt or Russell < Odom Grant Butler Divac... yeah...so how bout Divac
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but I feel that they aren't as strong as they were last year..</div> Well it was suppose to be mandatory that they won last year so as far as now I do agree that they aren't as strong as last year. This team will need more then a year to get all the chemistry to have a championship team. I hope I'm wrong and they pull out a miracle. Kobe would definately be the greatest player in the league if they managed to pull that off. But realistically it may 2 to 3 years to be champs again if Kobe can do everything in his power to make him and his teammates better.
They will need to play like a team. Kobe must lead. It will happen. I think Kobe will mature as a player this season. He will become what he was meant to be. THE MAN in the NBA
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post"> Most sports analyst and NBA Historians agree that the best way to win is to score points. Shaq is the best player in the NBA capable of making the most of every possesion from the field.</div> Okay, so now we must assume that teams like the Dallas Mavericks, who score 120 PPG, will win every year. No. It takes much more than scoring...ask the Pistons. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">That's why Shaq is gonna have an explosive season because he's gonna be getting more attempts and since he's 58%-FG he's on point to average alot, ex: with 1,611 like T-Mac he will have around 45ppg.</div> Is this because he's the only option in Miami, with Jones and Wade around? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">In Shaq's case it proves that he is the hardest player to stop from scoring because he racks up a lot of ppg and has been averaging 56% in his career(58% last season). It also tells us that Shaq's offense never really been challenged to his abilities because 58% is an unsually high FG% for a player.</div> Okay, Peja is obviously better than Kobe (assuming I go by your rules) being that he shot 48% from the field and came out scoring just a little higher per game. So, if I'm the Lakers, I'd definitely trade Kobe for Peja (if the salary cap was off), right? No. Shaq may be hard to stop, but in the Pistons series, Sheed/Ben/Tayshaun all were intercepting in the passing lanes, so if Kobe would've kept passing to Shaq (which now I believe is the resolution of all things), Kobe's turnovers would've been in double-digits...and he would've been blamed once again. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">As far as the maggette comparison, the numbers just say that he makes better decisions on whether he's in a position to score or not; he's not more talented than Kobe but he knows his limits FG% (or any %) says a lot about a player, like a batting average says about a hitter: the higher the % the better they are capable of making the most outta every attempt (in this case, at bat).</div> Yeah, Maggette doesn't even come close to being better than Kobe because there are elements to the game other than how well you shoot from the field...like defense, passing, awareness, quickness, clutch, etc...things that all championship teams must have, and the Clippers haven't cut it for a while now. You would think, though, that they do...since Brand shoots at 50%. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">There are other % that determine other areas of a player's game (as far as stats go, not other things like clutch emotion etc) and you are misunderstood when you think that I mean FG% determines a great overall player.</div> Yeah...that's why Shaq shouldn't be compared to other better players. His stats are impressive as a scorer and rebounder...because he's 7'1" and 500 lbs. His physical abilities (watching the guy shows this) prove that he has no other skills than using his body to manhandle his way to where he needs to be for a bucket or a rebound...and this is playing against 25 other centers that can't give him a fair challenge, because there is no Wilt, Bill Russell, Bill Walton, Kareem, Mikan...guys that would've tore Shaq apart like Robinson and especially Hakeem did in previous years. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">My Final comment, Why I think Shaq is still the Greatest playing: Because scoring is the best way (and the only official way) to win, you'd think Shaq at 58%-FG (#1 in the NBA) is the best person capable of scoring. He's taken a lot of attempts in his career that proves his FG% is not a fluke. This also means he's the hardest player to stop from scoring and deserves to be credited as the greatest player still playing because scoring points wins games. Tim Duncan, arguably the most dominant player in the West now, says he couldn't be happier that Shaq is outta the West, and believe me, that guy is speaking for the entire Western Conference. Dre thinks that other things besides scoring defines a great player but by the rules putting the ball in the rim is the official way to win and no one does it quite like Shaq.</div> Shaq was never really the greatest playing. Jordan left in 1998...and by the time the Lakers won their first title in 2000, Duncan was better than Shaq...and then Jordan was already back for a couple of years...and when he left, Shaq was heading downhill. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">This was also in response to realdeal's Shaq < Odom Grant Butler Divac which I still think is crazy...that's like saying MJ or Wilt or Russell < Odom Grant Butler Divac...</div> WHOA...you did not just compare Shaq to MJ and/or Wilt. Discussion over.
I wonder if this injury to Divac will affect him all season long. He's pretty old...I just hope it doesn't.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Originally posted by heatfan83 A player that averages 58%-FG 21ppg and can keep that up for a season tells me this much: this player didn't need many possesions to achieve 21ppg. They make the most outta every possesion.</div> u have to consider outside factors during every possesion. 1. was he open or heavilly guarded when he had the ball? 2. was he exhausted when he tried to make the shot? 3. was there enough time on the clock? the FG% doesnt tell the whole story.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">I wonder if this injury to Divac will affect him all season long. He's pretty old...I just hope it doesn't.</div> well when you get older and you get an injury, not only does it take you longer to heal but it also leaves the area in a more weakened state than it previously was,meaning it is more susceptible to further injury/damage. Hopefully it doesn't become a recurring thing with Vlade but in recent years he has become more prone to injuries.
Shaq does not go out on the court and give 110% every night, when your being paid 26 million dollars a year to play basketball thats is what you should do everynight you go out on that court. That is what kg does, thats what kb does, and shaq does not do it! The point is if your going to sit here and say shaq has the best percentage, of course he does he shoots 2 foot shots and dunks the ball, I hope to god he doesnt miss that or else he would be 7 foot 1 idiot. Miami < Lakers. Lakers have heart and something to prove unlike last season they have something to work for this year just like they did when shaq/kobe started winning in 2000.
I would pick KG/Duncan in a heartbeat over Shaq. If this was Shaq of 2000 we were talking about then yes, he'd be the best. But the year is 2004. Shaq's last "great" year was 2002. He got lazy and unmotivated and it showed in his nagging, lagging, dragging and stupid complaining. He has a new motivation now but on a night-in night-out basis, I would definetly take Duncan/KG instead of Shaq. They are almost as dominant as him and they can also help out thier teams in EVERY ASPECT unlike Shaq. I know you're a heat fan (heatfan83) and have this picture perfect Shaq in your mind but mark my words: When the Heat lose a couple of games in a row at some point in the season, Shaq's true colors will show. You cannot hide the real you, no matter where you go. "I promise a championship" Allright, MDE, let's see how far you can get with Detriot and Indiana as road blocks.
I agree, the only reason lakers didn't have a great season was that shaq wasn't trying and he was gettin fat. The cali lifestyle was more serious than his game at that time so it was a good time to trade him. Yeah it is stupid of shaq to make excuses since he was gettin paid 26m. He blamed the laker organization that they made him take heavy weights: which is why he got big and chubby. I think he needed a stricter coach..But goin to miami (a new environment)has done wonders for him..he lost the weight and seems to be goin back to his best
I'm going to be hoping now until November that Divac gets back to being 100%, so he can be playing for us instead of sitting on our bench. The Lakers are looking at a few centers still, and invited one to the camp already...so hopefully this isn't a sign of something bad (Divac's injury being more serious than we have been told).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, everyone also needs to remember that the fans don't choose who's on the Lakers, either. I'm sure the Laker organization didn't like the way they had to part with Divac, even though they picked up Kobe Bryant...so having him back in LA is a good thing. I never really liked him in Sac-town, and I never really watched him play while he was in LA...but hopefully his passing can help us out alot...yeah, his flopping also.</div> Now that Fisher is out of town, Lakers need the new flopper in Divac !!!
What's up with all the knocks on Divac? Perhaps most of you don't realize that Divac had a good accounting of himself as a LAker years ago. He was a vital cog as a <u>rookie </u> filling in the giant shoes of the Franchise Kareem in the 1990 (or is it 1991?) Finals team that lost to the first Bulls title team. Granted, Magic, Worthy, and the rest of Showtime were still around, but with a hole in the middle, do you think that team would have gotten as far as it did? Perhaps the only knock on Divac now would be his age, which increases freak injuries (like now) and reduces his minutes. Otherwise, while not as great as Shaq, I would think he had always been a solid big man and team player, and any team would benefit from having him.
This is an interesting discussion here so I'll put in my own two cents. Kevin Garnett overall is a better player. He can shoot better, he's quicker and is probably a better rebounder then Shaq. But Shaq is still the most dominating force in the NBA. And noone can stop him in the post. When you guys call him a lazy bastard who doesnt even try its simply ludicrous. Even if Shaq was as lazy as you say he is and doesnt do this and that when you get right down to it Shaq is still nearly unstoppable. He dunks on triple teams!!! Had Kobe kept on feeding Shaq the ball in the Finals then the Lakers would each have had one more ring. Thats just what I think. Garnett is more versatile but in the end if anyone had to pick someone to take them to the championship...in their heart of hearts...I dont know anyone who wouldnt pick Shaq Diesel.
