Zombie The Next Siakam? Don't Sleep On Zach Collins.

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by BonesJones, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. James lamphear

    James lamphear Well-Known Member

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    I disagree there 2 side of the ball number 1 and we are guard oriented offense with pick n roll in that offense. Plus Zach is very good on defense and right now until his offense catches up that his role.
     
  2. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    Zach looks like crap at PF, I'm just going to say it. His problems also exist at center, but his strengths are also amplified at that position.
     
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  3. AmirIcon

    AmirIcon Well-Known Member

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    We need to keep Melo and have him start at PF next season. Collins is inadequate.
     
  4. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    You don't think? Every time I see him get the ball under the basket he seems hesitant.
     
  5. perkinsfor3

    perkinsfor3 Well-Known Member

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    If we were to move on feom Zach Vollins (probably as part of package), I'd love for us to try and create some room to sign UFA Harry Giles.

    I know, I know... We have a history with knees.
     
  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    Dame was going to be the pick, with or without Olshey. Portland had the 6th pick well before Olshey arrived and the scouts had targeted Dame as primary prospect. And ironically, the player Portland scouts had landed on turned out to be the player that gave Olshey cover for a bunch of questionable management in subsequent years

    anyway:

    11 Meyers Leonard 12 Jeremy Lamb 20 Evan Fournier 34 Jae Crowder 35 Draymond Green 39 Khris Middleton

    10 CJ McCollum 12 Steven Adams 15 Giannis Antetokounmpo

    23 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson 32 Montrezl Harrell 40 Josh Richardson
    (Mason Plumlee trade)

    19 Malik Beasley 20 Caris LeVert 27 Pascal Siakam 29 Dejounte Murray 36 Malcolm Brogdon
    (Blazers could have 19 but they traded the pick for Afflalo)

    10 Zach Collins 12 Luke Kennard 13 Donovan Mitchell 14 Bam Adebayo 19 John Collins 21 Terrance Ferguson 22 Jarrett Allen 23 OG Anunoby 26 Caleb Swanigan 27 Kyle Kuzma 29 Derrick White 30 Josh Hart 42 Thomas Bryant 45 Dillon Brooks 51 Monte Morris
    (this one looks bad now, and I think it could look a lot worse a couple of years from now)

    24 Anfernee Simons 25 Moritz Wagner 26 Landry Shamet 34 Devonte' Graham 36 Mitchell Robinson 37 Gary Trent

    obviously, every GM, even the great ones, have significant misses on their resume. But the good ones will also have significant hits. That's lacking from Olshey's resume

    Olshey has missed opportunities to add Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Montrezl Harrell, Josh Richardson, Pascal Siakam, Malcolm Brogdon, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Abedayo, John Collins, and Devonte Graham

    at a certain point, the stack of draft misses result in demerits for the GM when it's not offset with success in equivalent slots in the draft

    where Olshey has done really well in the draft, is in the same fashion he has done well in trades: rooting around in the bargain bins of the 2nd round, just like he roots around in the dumpsters of players teams no longer want and are looking to dump. But the higher the stakes are, the more Olshey misses and the more he fucks up, whether it's trades, free agency, or the draft
     
  7. hoopsjock

    hoopsjock Well-Known Member

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    So now you're blaming him for drafts that we traded the pick away? C'mon man, that's a huge stretch. It's not like he traded away a top 5 pick or something.

    You have enough ammo to prove your case without including the BS.
     
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  8. oldmangrouch

    oldmangrouch persona non grata

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    Why is it BS? If you trade a pick, you are declaring that the player you get in the deal is better than the rookies available in that draft. It is still an issue of talent evaluation.
     
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  9. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    yeah...I am blaming him especially for that 2016 draft. He gave up the 19th pick and Will Barton for Afflalo. That was a trade that bombed on several levels. Nothing good came from that trade. I'll give him a pass for 2015; even give a merit badge because that brought back Plumlee who eventually turned into Nurkic (and the 20th pick that was part of landing Zach...to be determined). But if a trade fails, and the main part of the trade cost is a draft pick, that's still failure in the draft

    mainly though. I was pushing back on the assertion that Olshey is a "great draft evaluator". He's missed way too many opportunities and hasn't had the major successes to offset the misses. And the successes were there to be had. That's mediocre, not great, IMO. He should be in charge of the 2nd round, not the 1st
     
  10. hoopsjock

    hoopsjock Well-Known Member

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    Because we traded pick 23 for Plumlee and a 2nd (Connaughton) and then later traded Plumlee and a 2nd for Nurk and a 1st.

    The Afflalo one the plan was not to make the playoffs that year (1st year after Aldridge) and the pick was lottery protected so it wasn't supposed to convey.
     
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  11. SIeepwalker

    SIeepwalker The lone sane poster

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    So you'd rather have RHJ, Richardson or Harrell over Nurk ? Got it.
     
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  12. CupWizier

    CupWizier Well-Known Member

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    When people start doing redrafts just for our team it's not even realistic as in hindsight most teams will likely draft differently especially from 7 or so back. If we did the Lillard draft all over, we would have never been in position to draft him as he would have likely gone #2.
     
  13. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    did I say that?

    I didn't of course, you did....in fact, I even gave Olshey props for the combo of trades that eventually ended up with Nurkic

    but then, I wasn't trying to re-write history. I was pushing back against the assertion that Olshey was a "great draft evaluator".
     
  14. UKRAINEFAN

    UKRAINEFAN Well-Known Member

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    Think of what a great draft day it could have been if they didn't trade away 15 and 20. Maybe they would have still got Zach at 15, if not they could have had John Collins or Jarret Allen; then Anunoby with 20 and Kuzma or Derrrick White at 26. Now, that would have been a haul!
     
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  15. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I know that a lot of people get irritated when we 'revise' drafts in Portland's favor. In my case, some get irritated because I will usually take the opportunity to piss on Olshey.....that's part of the entertainment for me....sorry guys

    in that 2017 draft in particular, I think the best alternate outcome for Portland would have been Bam Abedayo and Derreck White; probably because I really like both players. That would have still required the 2 for 1 trade of 15 + 20 for 10.

    now, if they had actually wanted to use all 3 picks for players (seems like overkill), then something like John Collins, Og Anunoby, and Derreck White...your scenario would have been OK. But I really like Abedayo. He's a supercharged version of everything Olshey hoped Zach could be (minus 3 point shooting), and is actually a better assist man than Nurkic
     
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  16. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah playing woulda shoulda coulda is always a waste of time. Redrafts would never be the same and every team could look foolish if you want to make it look that way. Total waste of time.
     
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  17. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    c'mon man

    it might be a waste of time for you....but t obviously isn't for me and a lot of others

    it's getting kind of ridiculous here. Last week, some were arguing that we shouldn't look at the off-season until we are in the off-season. Now, you guys are arguing there is no value in looking at the past..."waste of time"

    in other words, don't talk about tomorrow, and don't talk about yesterday, and probably at least 23 hours of today are off-limits too. it's really criminal there are already 78 posts in tonight's game thread when the game isn't for 6 hours. And looking at Tuesday's game thread there are at least 7 pages of posts from after the game...what the fuck is wrong with these people?
     
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  18. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    but those aren't woulda coulda shoulda posts with near infinite scenarios where its being dissected in a format to show NO is bad at the draft.

    you are comparing apples to oranges.
     
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  19. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Talking about running "Redraft" scenarios and saying people are doing a bad job because of things that might have been different if they had drafted someone else?
    Infinite possibilities abound.
     
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  20. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    not at all. Ukraine and I were discussing what could have happened in the 2017 draft. He had an idea, expressed it...and I replied. Why would somebody say that was a waste of time? I didn't feel I was wasting my time and I'm assuming he didn't either. No reason to gauge what we were talking about as a waste

    as far as the larger 'discussion'...I'll say again: I was pushing back on the assertion that Olshey is a "great draft evaluator". In order to gauge if that is true it sure seems like you'd need to look at specific drafts, who was selected, and the opportunities missed because of that selection

    I mean, wut?...somebody says Olshey is great at drafting and somebody else can't look at who he took and who he left on the board?
     
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