If of the subgroup "backups", he is of the select portion that is superior to the rest, then he would meet the definition of "elite".
So then he should at least be in the conversation of 6MOTY award, yet I doubt his name has ever been brought up. Also, one would think such a great player would make significantly more than the Vet Minimum.
Well if that's the case, it's possible to be both, below average and elite (the best of the below average players), both fat and thin (he's among the thinnest of the morbidly obese), both jumbo and shrimp (he's one of the biggest shrimp), etc. Which then begs the question, is there really such a thing as an oxymoron? BNM
Well, I was just joking around, but since you seem to take everything I say dead seriously... I think he has a shot at making the HoF, because he had a very long career and was a key part of multiple championships. But, he only made the all star team twice - and both times he was a full time starter for the Spurs, not a backup (he started all 74 games he played in in 2004-05 and 79 of 80 games he played in in 2010-11). He never averaged 20ppg (came close in 2007-08 when he averaged 19.5 ppg in 31.1 mpg) and was never among the top 20 in scoring. He was never really a top 3 player at his position or a top 20 player in the league, which to me qualifies as an elite player. Certainly one of the best backups of his generation, fun to watch and had a very long, successful career, but I never really considered him one of the "elite" players in the league (and the times he came closest to being elite, he was a starter, not a backup). I guess I just have a higher standard for "elite". Feel free to pick your usual nits with everything I write, but this really is subjective. It all depends on one's definition of what constitutes elite. So, just know before you waste too much time on this, I reserve the right to agree to disagree. BNM
Well he'll also make the HOF simply because it's easier for international players. He's a lock because of his international achievements too. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it.
According to who? Bet if you asked coaches and players they’d disagree. In his prime he was putting up PERs that would’ve ranked him in the top 20, and the reason he was never top 20 in scoring is because he usually played about 30 minutes a night. Context matters.
Ill be nit picky here. You’re welcome. I think Manu was an ‘elite’ player by just about any subjective measure. He’s internationally one of the most accomplished players in the history of basketball. Ginobili’s career is interesting. “Good” manu, could be the best player on the court on a given night and it didnt matter who was out there. “Bad” manu, drove pops crazy. He had the talent to be a starter and get to more all star teams had he been in a different situation.
For whats its worth bnm is right its subjective and if Manu doesnt make his “elite” list then thats fine... I understand his reasoning at least.
I think he'll make it too, but it's more of a lifetime achievement award. Basketball-reference.com has a HoF Probability calculator and lists Manu's probability of making the HoF as 20%. I think that's far too low. They readily admit they are only predicting the probability based on NBA play, not foreign play (but it's the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame). Still, Manu has had a very long, successful NBA career. So, 20% STILL seems far to low based on his NBA accomplishments alone. Even though they factor in all star appearances, championships, etc. the formula is largely a big statistical regression where players are heavily rewarded for appearances on the NBA statistical leaderboards. As I mentioned earlier, Manu has never had a single season where he was top 20 in scoring. Nor has he ever been top 20 in rebounds or assists. In the basic individual statistical categories, he has a solitary appearance (steals per game in 2007-08) on the NBA top 20 leaderboards in 16 NBA seasons. He doesn't have the individual stats of the typical Hall of Famer, but he played his entire career on a winning team and was a key member of 4 NBA championships. So, I personally think he's a lock for the HoF. My original comment about elite backup being an oxymoron was meant in jest, but just to clarify, I think it's possible for a backup to be an elite, or borderline elite, player. Different guys come of off the bench for different reasons. Manu was usually the 3rd best player on those great Spurs teams (4th best after Kawhi broke out), but he preferred to come off the bench, which was fine with Pops. In most seasons, the Spurs had plenty of scoring in the starting unit without him, and bringing him off the bench allowed him to be the No. 1 scoring option with the second unit. He was certainly good enough to start, but it was advantageous to have him coming off the bench in all those seasons when they had another SG who was an adequate starter. If you go back an watch pretty much every important Spurs regular season game and every playoff game, you will notice that even when he wasn't a starter, Manu was always on the floor when the game was on the line. So, not a starter, but a finisher (which is actually more important). As far as elite, I tossed out top 3 at position or top 20 in the league. That roughly translates to top 10% at your position (among starters) or top 5% league side. Some may find that too high a standard, but elite is supposed to mean the best of the best (not just really good). So, that sounds about right to me. BNM
His offensive rebounds and rolls and dunks helped tremendously. His defense, his effort, his picks, his fire, his attitude, his belief in Dame and the team. Olshey is a dumbass and so is the notion that we are better off without Ed.
This seems fair, I just wonder if he had of started and got 35 mpg’s steadily what those numbers wouldve looked like. Would he have been like the third best SG during the years that title belonged to BRoy behind Kobe / Wade? I dont know. Manu is a very unique bench player in that he wasnt talent wise a bench a player, he just was in a situation that allowed him to play that role.
If he'd averaged 35 MPG, would he have been able to play until he was 40? Probably not. It was just a great situation for him, and the Spurs. He always played all out, which is easier when you play 25 MPG than 35 MPG. Having him coming off the bench was a luxury for the Spurs and suited his playing style and strengths. It also helped that they also usually had at least one other decent starting SG on their roster at the same time. Worked out great for them, and him. BNM
Agreed, just Id say most guys of his talent level played more minutes, which yes helped his career be longer, but also held his per game stats. Anyways I dont want to nit pick this to death. Was Manu a elite player any particular year? maybe not. I believe he definitely had an elite career though and a HoF career. Which to bring Broy back into this I feel the opposite about him. Had a couple elite years, but not a HoF or elite career. Interesting discussion though! Manu had one of the more unique careers in basketball, and it goes beyond just how long he played.
If Zach doesn't make a jump, the team will definitely feel the loss of Ed on the floor. But if Zach can play 24-26 minutes a game at a defensive version of Frank Kaminsky type level (slight negative RPM) Zach's going to be worth near what Ed was last year (3.79 wins). Off the floor, who knows what impact that's going to make. Multiple players at media day mentioned how the vibe has changed w/o him, but maybe that forces Dame and CJ to take on more of a vocal leadership role and I think it's reasonable to think that that might have a positive impact on the team. Maybe it doesn't work out that way...again who knows. We'll see how it plays out. All I know is I am excited to see how Zach attacks this opportunity. I think he's ready for it, and as much as I respect Ed's game, his skill set stunts Zach's development on both ends of the floor and that development is more important to this franchise long term than anything Ed would have provided on or off the floor imo.
Roy was an elite player when healthy. The problem was, he was rarely healthy. Better, but much shorter, peak than Manu, but (obviously) Manu had the far better career. BTW, basketball-reference doesn't even list a Hall of Fame Probability score for Brandon Roy. Their minimum requirement is 400 NBA games played. Roy played in only 326 regular season and 15 playoff games. So yeah, no way does anyone who played in less than 400 games deserve to be voted into the HoF based on their NBA career. BNM
The 23 games he missed last year were the most he's ever missed due to injury. Prior to that, he's had a lot of nagging injuries that typically cause him to miss 10 - 15 games a year (on average). But, part of that is he's had Tom Thibodeau as his coach for most of his career. Thibs has a history of playing his starters too much with the expected result of fatigue related injuries. As evidence by the fact that Butler has the highest average MPG of any player in the league over the five previous seasons. He has also led the league, by far, in games of greater than 45 minutes over that same span: He hasn't had nearly the same history of knee injuries/surgerys as Roy. BNM
