<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Cash-Money:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe aint finished watch him have more than 20 in 3 years.</div> Kobe Bryant is my current favorite player, but I would not put him in the same class as Jordan ever. Even if he beats Jordan's 50 point performance or scores more career points, you can never draw the comparison to Jordan. I'd rather see Kobe Bryant create his own identity and set himself apart from any player in the history of the game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Cash-Money:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe aint finished watch him have more than 20 in 3 years.</div> I hope you're joking.
Jesus Christ. Stop it with the Jordan comparisons already, to ANY player, not just Kobe. There will never be another Jordan. As Steve Harley once said, there will never be any more Muhammad Ali's and there will be no Jordan's. Instead of trying to compare Kobe/Pierce/Lebron to a player they aren't and will never be, let's just appreciate them for what they do every game and how great they all truly are. Seriously, this Jordan thing needs to stop, it just sounds stupid now and it's pointless because for every stat you bring up that's greater then Jordan's, 50 000 of his loyal fans will bashing and start giving off completely irrelavent stats in return (not accusing anyone in this thread). To be concise: Yes, Jordan is one of the best players the league's ever seen but NO, there will never another Jordan, or another Magic, or another Dennis Rodman for that matter. Each player is different, each player takes his own path and all paths are different. Jordan is irreplaceable, let's leave it at that and all go to sleep, there's nothing to compare.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Cash-Money:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe aint finished watch him have more than 20 in 3 years.</div> This is exactly why Kobe has haters. Guys who make their team-mates better are known when they actually improve their team and = that into wins. Stats never tell the whole story even when It comes to players shooting % going up. Kobe still needs to prove he can make the rest of his team better. Odom seems to be taken alot less shots in L.A than Miami so his shooting % should be up, Butler is actually heathly this year which is the reason his % is higher. Mihm has actually got starter minutes, all bigger factors.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">This is exactly why Kobe has haters. Guys who make their team-mates better are known when they actually improve their team and = that into wins. Stats never tell the whole story even when It comes to players shooting % going up. Kobe still needs to prove he can make the rest of his team better. Odom seems to be taken alot less shots in L.A than Miami so his shooting % should be up, Butler is actually heathly this year which is the reason his % is higher. Mihm has actually got starter minutes, all bigger factors.</div> Give credit where credit is due. Kobe is making it easier for all of the Laker starters with his ability to create. Odom is taking less shots so his % should be up? What does one have to do with the other? Mihm is taking more shots, so should his % being going down? Caron Butler was healthy in his 1st year, and only shot 41%. If you want to use Wins as a stat. Just look at the Lakers record over the span when Kobe became a starter. He made Shaq a better a player and vice versa.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Give credit where credit is due. Kobe is making it easier for all of the Laker starters with his ability to create. Odom is taking less shots so his % should be up? What does one have to do with the other? Mihm is taking more shots, so should his % being going down? Caron Butler was healthy in his 1st year, and only shot 41%. If you want to use Wins as a stat. Just look at the Lakers record over the span when Kobe became a starter. He made Shaq a better a player and vice versa.</div> The less shots players take the more likely their % will be up from when they took more shots the year before purely because Odom was the leading scorer for the Heat and had to do more offensively than he does in L.A. Mihm is totally different to Odom, his minutes were limited and was not a feature of their offense in Cleveland. In Boston he had more chances and shot around 50% not much different from his current averages. I wouldn't say Mihm has improved from last year, he has just got more minutes. He averaged 6 and 5 in 17 minutes for the Celtics and now he is getting 11 and 6 in over 26 minutes. Honestly I don't see the improvement part, he has always been just soild/average. As for Kobe making Shaq a better player, thats highly debatable. Shaq has been a 20+ 11+ player his whole career. Although when teams key on Kobe I guess Shaq's game was better off at times. Kobe's passing abilty has never been questioned, was just a matter If he would pass. Shame for Laker fans he failed to do what he is doing now in the finals.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> He's gunna have to grow up to be hall of fame worthy</div>While i agree kobe does need to grow up, and i personally hate him. He is still a great player none the less. The fact that a few great players/coaches cant stand him wont get in his way of becoming an eventual hall of famer
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">The less shots players take the more likely their % will be up from when they took more shots the year before purely because Odom was the leading scorer for the Heat and had to do more offensively than he does in L.A. Mihm is totally different to Odom, his minutes were limited and was not a feature of their offense in Cleveland. In Boston he had more chances and shot around 50% not much different from his current averages. I wouldn't say Mihm has improved from last year, he has just got more minutes. He averaged 6 and 5 in 17 minutes for the Celtics and now he is getting 11 and 6 in over 26 minutes. Honestly I don't see the improvement part, he has always been just soild/average. As for Kobe making Shaq a better player, thats highly debatable. Shaq has been a 20+ 11+ player his whole career. Although when teams key on Kobe I guess Shaq's game was better off at times. Kobe's passing abilty has never been questioned, was just a matter If he would pass. Shame for Laker fans he failed to do what he is doing now in the finals.</div> Exactly, Odom has gone from being the primary scorer to a role player. Taking LESS bad shots has improved his field goal percentage, and the person responsible for that is Kobe. In comparison, Kobe's field goal percentage has taken a dive since Shaq left. Shaq was the primary scorer and Kobe benefitted from being able to take higher percentage shots when Shaq was still a Laker. Kobe making Shaq a better player is not debateable it's a fact. The Lakers won 3 titles with the duo of Shaq and Kobe and dominated the league for the most part. Why shame on Laker fans? How about shame on Shaq for not getting into shape and playing with the fire he is this season? And shame on Kobe for being a brat in the playoffs last season and not accepting the fact him and Shaq together was better than him by himself.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly, Odom has gone from being the primary scorer to a role player. Taking LESS bad shots has improved his field goal percentage, and the person responsible for that is Kobe. </div> It has more to do with Odom having the ball far less than anything else. Kobe needs the ball in his hands at all time which is part of L.A's problem and his terrible turnover rate. Kobe needs another scorer along side him, Odom was that guy. The last thing you need is to have LO as a role player <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe making Shaq a better player is not debateable it's a fact. The Lakers won 3 titles with the duo of Shaq and Kobe and dominated the league for the most part. </div> There's a difference between having a scorer by his side than that player making the go to guy better, Shaq would likely of won titles no matter what scorers he had by his side. He was and is that good. Obviously Kobe was a big part of what the Lakers did but they could of still easily won titles with guys like Mcgrady, Pierce, Allen e.t.c and no one would say they would of made Shaq better. They just helped him, there's a difference. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why shame on Laker fans? How about shame on Shaq for not getting into shape and playing with the fire he is this season? And shame on Kobe for being a brat in the playoffs last season and not accepting the fact him and Shaq together was better than him by himself.</div> Even with Shaq's weight problems he was still a dominant force and had his way in the finals. When you shoot the ball at 60% you should expect the ball more often and you don't settle for jumpshots when you are being guarded by a good defender. who has such long arms which make It impossible for you to shoot well consistantly.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">That's a good variable to argue with, but I think the overall competition level was higher when Jordan played. For starters, you did not have as many teams so talent was less spread out around the league. The quality shooting guards might be better now, but only on the offensive side of the ball. another one would be the rule changes the NBA has gone through (excluding this season). Until this season, defenses got away with a lot more, which is why we saw so many teams struggling to get 100 points.</div> the notion of the diluted league is false, i'll tell u why european players didn't play in the eighties or for the better part of the 90's. the contemporary nba is much more of an inclusive league. plus, the nba has only expanded by one team since he left, and for the most part young guards take less time to develop (lebron james, melo, wade), so the notion of younger player eroding the skill set is false as well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">It has more to do with Odom having the ball far less than anything else. Kobe needs the ball in his hands at all time which is part of L.A's problem and his terrible turnover rate. Kobe needs another scorer along side him, Odom was that guy. The last thing you need is to have LO as a role player There's a difference between having a scorer by his side than that player making the go to guy better, Shaq would likely of won titles no matter what scorers he had by his side. He was and is that good. Obviously Kobe was a big part of what the Lakers did but they could of still easily won titles with guys like Mcgrady, Pierce, Allen e.t.c and no one would say they would of made Shaq better. They just helped him, there's a difference. Even with Shaq's weight problems he was still a dominant force and had his way in the finals. When you shoot the ball at 60% you should expect the ball more often and you don't settle for jumpshots when you are being guarded by a good defender. who has such long arms which make It impossible for you to shoot well consistantly.</div> They just helped him what? There was nothing easy about winning those titles with the players you mentioned above. Kobe was much more than just a scorer for the Lakers. He's a great defender and floor leader for the team. He also made a countless amount of clutch shots. I'm not sure a combination of McGrady and Shaq would work, McGrady doesn't bring the same skill set Kobe offers. But regardless of the stance you take, it's just he IF game. The fact still remains Kobe made Shaq a better player and the proof is the three rings, three rings Shaq didn't have prior to playing with Kobe. As for LO, he is a role player. His role is to be the secondary scorer and rebounder on the team. I will agree the Lakers need to utilize him more for his play making ability and get him more field goal attempts. I think it's just a matter of time for the to adjust, but eventually Kobe and LO should be a fierce duo for the Lakers.
Just a couple of things... Nobody will be as great as Jordan. Simple as that. But, there will be guys that are close. AllNet, Shaq being a 20, 11 player his entire career? Try 27 and 12. Right now, he's at 20 and 11. And, the argument about Kobe making his teammates better shouldn't be up for debate. He does. Those that say he doesn't, what do you expect, a championship? Funny...not one player, not even the great MJ, did it alone. When Jordan failed his first 6 years in the league, is it fair to say that he didn't make his teammates better? The stats show it, and the winning record shows it...that Kobe makes his teammates better. No reason to debate it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There was nothing easy about winning those titles with the players you mentioned above. Kobe was much more than just a scorer for the Lakers. He's a great defender and floor leader for the team. He also made a countless amount of clutch shots. I'm not sure a combination of McGrady and Shaq would work, McGrady doesn't bring the same skill set Kobe offers. </div> No championships are won easily and yes Kobe played a huge role in all 3 championship seasons but playing with a guy like Shaq where teams will double him and leave you, would help any player. Guys like Allen and Pierce would be just as good overall and in the clutch. Kobe has that never give up attuide and I'm sure in the right situation the other top shooting guards in this league would of had the same. We will never know If these would of been different and is pointless to continue talking about that but he is debatable If Kobe really made Shaq that much better, It's not a given. You can point out the rings but before that time Shaq was inexperienced and never had a coach like Phil Jackson before hand, that was more of a reason than anything else. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AllNet, Shaq being a 20, 11 player his entire career? Try 27 and 12. Right now, he's at 20 and 11.</div> I said 20+ and 11+ meaning over + for each, I was more than aware Shaq put up far bigger numbers than 20 and 11 which I why I stated so.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">the notion of the diluted league is false, i'll tell u why european players didn't play in the eighties or for the better part of the 90's. the contemporary nba is much more of an inclusive league. plus, the nba has only expanded by one team since he left, and for the most part young guards take less time to develop (lebron james, melo, wade), so the notion of younger player eroding the skill set is false as well.</div> The influx of European players doesn't effect the overall talent level of the NBA. Regardless of where the talent is coming from there is less of it. Just take a look around the NBA rosters, and try to imagine some of these players even making a team in the 80's or early 90's. Prior to the Jordan era, an NBA team needed 3 stars to win a championship and a deep bench. Now teams are winning with two Jordan & Pippen ... Kobe & Shaq ... Duncan & Robinson. The quality of big men has depleted over the last few decades and that's an important reason the league's talent is diluted. There's only been one team since he left, but during his prime there were less teams in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">The influx of European players doesn't effect the overall talent level of the NBA. Regardless of where the talent is coming from there is less of it. Just take a look around the NBA rosters, and try to imagine some of these players even making a team in the 80's or early 90's. Prior to the Jordan era, an NBA team needed 3 stars to win a championship and a deep bench. Now teams are winning with two Jordan & Pippen ... Kobe & Shaq ... Duncan & Robinson. The quality of big men has depleted over the last few decades and that's an important reason the league's talent is diluted. There's only been one team since he left, but during his prime there were less teams in the league.</div> shaq or kareem? shaq duncan or david robinson? duncan ewing or brad miller? ewing kevin mcale or kg? kg 3-1 for the contemporary nba and i thought we were taking about guards? and yeah ginobli, dirk, gasol, peja, nash, parker and yao could have played in the 80's.
OMG Can you stop comparing Kobe to Jordan and let Kobe be the first Kobe? instead of becoming second jordan?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Give credit where credit is due. Kobe is making it easier for all of the Laker starters with his ability to create. Odom is taking less shots so his % should be up? What does one have to do with the other? Mihm is taking more shots, so should his % being going down? Caron Butler was healthy in his 1st year, and only shot 41%. If you want to use Wins as a stat. Just look at the Lakers record over the span when Kobe became a starter. He made Shaq a better a player and vice versa.</div> Just one thing about this, Caron Butler was the second/first option on that team as a rookie he was second but EJ got injured and he was the go-to-guy, so I don't think it's a good comparison Anyways, taking defensive pressure off other players will help them though, Odom does need to be utilized more though, I mean it would be better to see him shoot 45% and be more involved offensively than 50% and take 9-10 shots a game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">shaq or kareem? shaq duncan or david robinson? duncan ewing or brad miller? ewing kevin mcale or kg? kg 3-1 for the contemporary nba and i thought we were taking about guards? and yeah ginobli, dirk, gasol, peja, nash, parker and yao could have played in the 80's.</div> Wait, wait. Shaq or Kareem? Shaq Duncan or Hakeem? Hakeem Miller or Ewing? Ewing Garnett or McHale? Garnett But...I'd have Hakeem Olajuwon before any of those guys. And WadeDynasty, I don't think anyone is comparing Kobe to Jordan...because I for one don't believe he'll match or outplay MJ...but in my opinion, he's the closest thing to MJ (just not close enough).
Yea I was also looking at it and think where is Hakeem? Also what about Mourning and Mutombo, who would they be compared to?
