http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ng-exit-interview/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs This is likely more negativity coming from the front office. Bulls management didn’t need a reason to slander Thibodeau in this way. In fact, during Thursday’s presser, John Paxson said more than once that if the Bulls were playing for a championship right now, then they wouldn’t be having this conversation. That’s all that needed to be said — expectations were high, and Thibodeau didn’t meet them from a pure performance standpoint. But instead, the organization feels the need to justify its decision by belittling Thibodeau on his way out the door, when he has exhibited nothing but class publicly throughout this process.
I agree with all of this. The funny thing though is that the leak that pissed me off the most came from camp Thibodeau: it was that bit about how he never recovered from the loss of Asik and Korver. Asik I buy. Him and Thibs were Sympatico. Korver? If Thibs was so heartbroken about the loss of Korver maybe he should have played him consistently when he had him on his roster.
Korver played plenty, and finished games. The Bulls traded an all star for a TPE they wouldn't use because keeping him or using it meant luxury tax.
Korver finished games when the Bulls were behind. He only earned situational minutes. Keith Bogan was apparently too good to sit. That's right, remember Keith Bogans? That's Thibs too.
He finished games, period. Bogans played less than Korver. Korver is a great example of management torpedoing the team to save money. And yet Thibs still won. Good management enables its managers to excel. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-bu...vbXVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg-- Why Bulls management could never accept Tom Thibodeau's success By Adrian Wojnarowski For all the issues that inspired Chicago Bulls management to carry out such a ferocious campaign to discredit Tom Thibodeau – minutes restrictions and personnel disagreements and an inability to simply interact – perhaps the most powerful had been jealousy. Over and over, those listening to John Paxson and Gar Forman would tell you that Bulls management could never make peace with the praise heaped upon Thibodeau for 60-victory seasons and deep playoff runs. For them, it was too much about the best defense in the NBA, too much about his development of journeymen into rotation contributors, good players into All-Stars, great players into an MVP. To them, Thibodeau represented a Chicago folk hero who needed to be leveled. Tell them that he was a great coach, and league officials say you'd often hear back from Bulls management that simply, "He's good." If Thibodeau had only the political savvy to publicly praise his bosses, maybe everyone could've been spared the years of needless acrimony and drama. As Thibodeau joined the Bulls five years ago, a coaching friend told him: "Remember to kiss some babies," a suggestion that he needed to learn to be more of a politician. Thibodeau always believed that it was enough to be a committed coach, enough to win, but the Bulls' climate commanded survival instincts unfamiliar to him. Finally, team president Michael Reinsdorf and Forman brought Thibodeau into a meeting on Thursday morning and fired him. Finally, the Bulls have the clear path to hire Iowa State coach Fred Hoiberg. Forman has been obsessive in his desire to hire Hoiberg, and it will be only a matter of days until the Bulls' make-believe search ends and this back-door process is over. This time, no one will doubt management hired its man. This time, the coach won't be an object for attack and humiliation. When Paxson didn't like the way Vinny Del Negro managed Joakim Noah's minutes, he charged into the coach's office and laid hands on him. This time, management had to be far more calculating in crushing the coach's credibility and contributions, both inside and outside the facility. It appeared to be part of a public campaign to dehumanize Thibodeau, picking apart his tactical acumen and portraying him as an uncaring ogre. Players had a sympathetic ear with management and medical staff. MORE TRUTH AT THE LINK
Thoughts: 1). Like Transplant, I thought the stories of the Bulls "smear" campaign was always a bit of a runaway story. They never overtly said anything, and most of the local media articles I read that were supposed to be artillery for the onslaught always struck me as overblown. It was usually just idle speculation on the part of the writers, but nothing that was unusual for a beat story. That's what they do. I never thought the Bulls were deliberately trying to undermine Thibs through the media. I think it's true that the two parties really didn't see eye-to-eye, but this was an echo chamber that took on a life of its own. 2). Like everyone else here, I really wish the Bulls would've chosen their words more carefully with that press conference. As bad as the blood seems to be between them, in five years there will still be stories about this press conference percolating throughout the NBA echo chamber and it'll probably stick with the front office for as long as they're around. Guys, you really fucked that up. Stay classy. 3). There seem to be very conflicting stories about how the players felt about Thibs. There are some public announcements about how they hoped everything would work out, but also these rumors that a lot of them wanted him gone. Does anyone have a good, conclusive story or angle on this?
Regular season wins don't matter, only beating Lebron James in the playoffs. If you can't do that with a less talented roster than the other side, you are fired. (actually, you can probably do this and keep your job as long as you make it to the 1st round of the playoffs and falaciate paxson) Best of luck to Freddy Del Hoiberg with that.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/05...his-first-pitch-before-a-cubs-white-sox-game/ A relentless drive to win. Ultimately, that's what champions are made of, along with talent. See MJ. He would try to win a team plane poker game as hard as a NBA Title. Thibs has the drive and the coaching chops to be a champion, if given the talent. He never had the roster that could best Lebron James. Even this year, with an absent at times Gasol, a Rose that isn't a star level player anymore and an ineffective Noah, the Thibs team managed to come within a whisper of beating Lebron. Some thought that the Cavs were weak, but I think them sweeping the #1 seed, super-smart, low MPG, dynamic offense Hawks shows otherwise. Let's hope Freddy Del Hoiberg has that drive and more importantly can instill that drive in his players. Thibs almost always got the most out of the talent he was given. We also hope that Del Hoiberg has the NBA coaching chops and locker room management skills at least close to that of the man the Bulls fired in order to bring Freddy in. If you believe the rumors coming from local media (always questionable) some players were tiring of Thibs. After 5 years of very hard work, that can be expected. Let's hope they are not tired of the hard work it takes to be a champion but just need a new voice, and the rookie NBA coach who could not even get out of the first round of the NCAA tournament this year is the one to give it. Lord knows, GarPax are likely not going to be the ones to instill the culture of a champion. They can't even hold a press conference without looking like fools and have no track record without Thibs, other than mediocrity. GarPax will get several years of continued paychecks though (well, Paxson for sure, if there is trouble, Gar will be the sacrifice).
At some point, if you are a super-talented employee, which Thibs is, you have to respect the people you work for. If you are working for people that are fools, but they have a "hands-off" approach, that's something you can live with. If you are working for people that are fools, but they meddle in your day-to-day, well, then there is conflict. Talented, in-demand people want to work for talented organizations for people they respect. Thibs will coach Team USA and pick the NBA situation that suits him best soon enough. He had one of the most successful 5 year coaching runs in history. He just was never given a roster good enough to defeat Lebron James. He almost did it this season, and very well could have if Pau Gasol didn't break down at an inopportune time. (but that's what you get when your key off season acquisition is a 34 year old with injury history) And that's without a real superstar level player. GarPax will hire puppet coaches for the foreseeable future. Rookies that need a job to start their career and will toe the line. As Bulls fans, let's hope GarPax know what they are doing, if the goal is to win a championship. I fear that the goal is to manage expectations, make the first round of the playoffs and preserve a stream of paychecks. A sad sequence of events for Bulls fans. Hopefully GarPax and Freddy Del Hoiberg can install a championship level culture here after blowing one up. They just demonized and smeared the guy that made the Bulls one of the elite teams in the NBA, despite not having MVP level talent save for one season.
I wonder if 15 years from now Thibs will be viewed like Art Howe: A good maybe great coach who was not able to make the changes needed for success outside of his era. It's all good and fine to pretend like there's a hard division between coaching and the front office, but unless your coach is actively relying on game analytics and medical analytics he is failing in today's NBA. The coach can no longer be a Gene Hackman type, willing his team to play his way and only his way. Now you need your coach to be a bridge builder. Here's a fact we have to come to grips with: despite everybody and their mother coming out of the woodwork to proclaim Thibodeau the greatest coach in the history of time, the Bulls just fired him because they were unable to work out a trade. Would Brad Stevens have had more interest in him? Quite possibly.
I wonder if 15 years from now, people will look back at all the spin going on by management and realize what idiots they think the fans are. Case in point, one argument used against Thibs was some "meaningless" game where he played guys big minutes. Turns out if we lost one more game, we play the Cavs in the 1st round. No games are "meaningless" until you cannot get a better seed or lose your current one. It still remains a fact that no coach out of the past several has been able to work with these guys for very long and the smears at the end are like a rerun that we've no seen that movie a few times. The one constant in all the failure is the owner, then his choices to maximize the profits. And of course, profit over basketball decisions. The work out a trade thing is hilarious. More spin that if you think about it, they're playing you for an idiot. Why would anyone trade for him when they could sign him for nothing when the Bulls were clearly going to fire him anyway? He is going to coach where he wants to, not where the Bulls might trade him. Painting Thibs as a guy who's unwilling to change or accept "modern" moneyball decision inputs. And how appropriate, moneyball was all about not spending money! Have a read from this 2013 article: http://www.csnchicago.com/bulls-talk/old-school-thibs-shares-views-new-school-nba-trend Advanced statistics have come into vogue with both basketball media and casual fans as of late, and the numbers, which track detailed stats that can’t be found in old-school box scores — such as win shares, which calculate how much players contribute to team success — can be overwhelming to those unfamiliar with the concept, but they are given increasingly more credence and don’t appear to be going anywhere. Thibodeau acknowledged the value in the basketball analytics that have come to the forefront in recent years, except he doesn’t consider it a new trend. “It’s been around for a long time. Pat Riley was big on it 20 years ago and no one was doing it,” the coach recently explained. “A lot of guys, like [late NBA head coach] Bill Musselman, who I worked for, he was big on stats for both game prep and evaluating players. There are certain things that I’ve watched over the years, and my experience of 23 years in the league, and I know what numbers hold up, and what numbers mean things. A lot of that I got from Bill.” He also divulged that the Bulls’ front office is utilizing advanced statistics more these days, but while he’ll consult the organization’s new expert in the field, like scouting reports, Thibodeau, who routinely cites plus-minus statistics (a measure of how the team performs when individual players are on the floor), not one of the newer statistics, will also do his own research. “We have a guy that we’ve hired that’s terrific, Steve Weinman. We’re using him for the draft, that sort of stuff. I’ve been big on it for a long time. I like to use Elias [the long-time stats bureau]. There’s a number of things that I look at that have been a big part of preparation for a long time for me,” he said, first noting that he didn’t “want to get into specifics,” so as not to key opponents in on his tactics. “I get a stat pack both on our opponent and on us for every game, and there is a lot of information. I think the important thing is to determine what you feel is important to either make you think about things or confirm things that you’ve already thought about.” ... Thibodeau concurred with that view, using the example of Tony Allen, the defensive stopper and Chicago native who he coached in Boston, winning a title with the Celtics. Allen, never known for his scoring ability, might not be a favorite of the analytics faction — ironically, he was re-signed by the Grizzlies, who have a front office known as advanced-stats proponents, in the offseason — but to a coach like Thibodeau, his intangibles benefit Memphis much more than numbers would ever be able to indicate. “He has a skill that he does as well as anybody in the league, so he can impact the game with his defense and he’s a streaky shooter, but he’s a great cutter and if you turn your head on him, beside of him, he’s going to make you pay, and he can also make plays,” Thibodeau. “I think sometimes that gets overlooked. He’s a fierce competitor and he knows how to win, so I think he’s had great impact on their team.” ... When asked to cite an example of how to correctly utilize advanced statistics, the coach went into the way-back machine, as well as his New England roots, discussing current University of Louisville coach Rick Pitino — not his reigning national champs or his title team at Kentucky, which Mohammed played for, or even his NBA stints with the Knicks and Celtics, but his first head-coaching job at Providence — and his use of the then-recently-introduced three-pointer on the college level. “The utilization of the three, both how you get to it and how you prevent it…I saw first-hand when Rick Pitino went to Providence College,” he explained, without a hint of irony., not even mentioning the fact that seventh-year Bulls All-Star center Joakim Noah, as well as rookie Erik Murphy, played for Pitino’s star player, Billy Donovan, on that 1986 Friars team. “He was shooting a lot more threes than anyone else in college. He was way ahead of everyone, and I think that was based on his experience in the NBA. From a math standpoint, you can tell how you can offset a talent disadvantage.” The coach expressed no resentment toward the new breed of NBA executives who emphasize numbers and don’t have as much traditional basketball experience — such as general managers Daryl Morey and Sam Presti of Houston and Oklahoma City, respectively — but cautioned that statistics can be taken out of proportion if not used correctly. ... Quotes from famous historical names aside, it’s clear that while Thibodeau has embraced the ever-growing development of advanced stats in basketball, like everything else, he’s going to do it his way.
That's just a bogus accusation. Spin. Obviously if you don't play the guys at all, they'll have near zero chance of getting hurt. But you have to play them to win. The guys off the bench outright sucked for most of the season.
This accusation has been documented many, many times by both local and national reporters. We've even heard details with supporting evidence, like the regular conflicts over minutes limitations. What is your point? Are you denying that there were clashes over what the front office believed was the overuse of certain players?
The evidence is: One guy played over 36 minutes. All the guys who were rested basically got hurt. As far as clashes, the front office was dead set on firing Thibs so they could hire Gar's buddy. The process of undermining the coaches is well documented and JVG nailed it.
Look, I think these are safe discriptors of the situation. 1) Thibs did not belive the analysis from the front office that he was overusing players. 2) Thibs espoused a hostility to all player minutes limitations, often citing to the championship Bulls' heavy minutes loads as a possible model to immitate. 3) Thibs refused to implement in good faith the conclusions from the front office analysis about player minutes. What am I missing here?
The data shows he limited the players minutes. That's what's missing. The narrative and the facts don't match Even the previous season: Don't forget Lu was gone after 23 games and Butler missed the start of the season with an injury (had nothing to do with playing too many minutes, LOL) Again, 1 player played over 36 minutes. Rose, recovering from surgery played 31. Noah turned in one of the healthiest seasons in his career, and best. DPOY, All NBA 1st team. Noah was 15th in the league in minutes played, and not in the top 20 in minutes/game.
