<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The problem was that without Shaq, we didn't have another center at all...so when Shaq sat out, the teams ate us alive in the paint just because we had PF's playing center. This made it seem like Shaq was the most incredible athlete any team could have, but it was only because we had no other player that could defend the paint. </div> I agree completely. The Lakers management did a poor job of surrounding Shaq/Kobe with better role players (backups, in this case) that would fill the necessary void when one of them were gone. Say, for all those days Shaq was injured, if Kobe had had a LEGITIMATE center playing in the middle instead of an old, aging power forward (Horace Grant), then there's no reason the Lakers wouldn't have won more. If the Lakers had gotten an above average center like say Mark Blount or Brad Miller (just an example) in the past, a CENTER who could actually play the CENTER role, then there's no telling how much farther they could have gone.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree completely. The Lakers management did a poor job of surrounding Shaq/Kobe with better role players (backups, in this case) that would fill the necessary void when one of them were gone. Say, for all those days Shaq was injured, if Kobe had had a LEGITIMATE center playing in the middle instead of an old, aging power forward (Horace Grant), then there's no reason the Lakers wouldn't have won more. If the Lakers had gotten an above average center like say Mark Blount or Brad Miller (just an example) in the past, a CENTER who could actually play the CENTER role, then there's no telling how much farther they could have gone.</div> YES. I can safely say that we would've won those three championships with Ben Wallace, Yao Ming, Jamaal Magloire, or even Erick Dampier...instead of Shaq, and here's why... Say at the start of the 2002 season, we traded Shaq for Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince (and salary fillers). Here would've been our lineup: C - Ben Wallace/Slava Medvedenko PF - Robert Horry/Mark Madsen/Samaki Walker SF - Tayshaun Prince/Rick Fox/Tracy Murray SG - Kobe Bryant/Devean George/Kareem Rush PG - Derek Fisher/Brian Shaw/Jannero Pargo We could've won the championship...but instead, we didn't even get to the finals that year because Duncan was unstoppable against Shaq. See, Shaq isn't what's important...depth is.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">YES. I can safely say that we would've won those three championships with Ben Wallace, Yao Ming, Jamaal Magloire, or even Erick Dampier...instead of Shaq, and here's why... Say at the start of the 2002 season, we traded Shaq for Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince (and salary fillers). Here would've been our lineup: C - Ben Wallace/Slava Medvedenko PF - Robert Horry/Mark Madsen/Samaki Walker SF - Tayshaun Prince/Rick Fox/Tracy Murray SG - Kobe Bryant/Devean George/Kareem Rush PG - Derek Fisher/Brian Shaw/Jannero Pargo We could've won the championship...but instead, we didn't even get to the finals that year because Duncan was unstoppable against Shaq. See, Shaq isn't what's important...depth is.</div> LMAO!!!!! You guys are unbelievable! So you trade Shaq for two guys that struggle to score and you get farther? That leaves you with Kobe as a scorer and thats it... I cannot believe the lengths you guys are going to downplay Shaq..it's sad.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">LMAO!!!!! You guys are unbelievable! So you trade Shaq for two guys that struggle to score and you get farther? That leaves you with Kobe as a scorer and thats it... I cannot believe the lengths you guys are going to downplay Shaq..it's sad.</div> Wow...okay I didn't wanna have to do this, but here we go. One of the greatest teams ever consisted of Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington...the 1995 Chicago Bulls. Tell me this...who were their scorers? Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. The 2004 Los Angeles Lakers...Kobe Bryant, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Kareem Rush...do I have to go on? Who are their scorers? Kobe Bryant and Lamar Odom. Bill Wennington and Luc Longley aren't even close to being Shaq...and Rodman didn't score but about 2 PPG. Who needs a scorer? Ask the Detroit Pistons...which, oh ya...they didn't have a scoring center this year, but they did beat the team that had the so-called "greatest center ever."
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow...okay I didn't wanna have to do this, but here we go. One of the greatest teams ever consisted of Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington...the 1995 Chicago Bulls. Tell me this...who were their scorers? Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. The 2004 Los Angeles Lakers...Kobe Bryant, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Kareem Rush...do I have to go on? Who are their scorers? Kobe Bryant and Lamar Odom. Bill Wennington and Luc Longley aren't even close to being Shaq...and Rodman didn't score but about 2 PPG. Who needs a scorer? Ask the Detroit Pistons...which, oh ya...they didn't have a scoring center this year, but they did beat the team that had the so-called "greatest center ever."</div> what in the name of God are you talkin' about? Look at what you posted..you weren't talking about the current Lakers.. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">C - Ben Wallace/Slava Medvedenko PF - Robert Horry/Mark Madsen/Samaki Walker SF - Tayshaun Prince/Rick Fox/Tracy Murray SG - Kobe Bryant/Devean George/Kareem Rush PG - Derek Fisher/Brian Shaw/Jannero Pargo</div> that is in no way comparable to the Bulls. This lineup wouldn't get close to a championship. If you say they would do better than they would with Shaq then you are dreamin'. Kobe can score 40+ but who else? No one..this team would struggle to put up points and get buried in the Playoffs.
What my point was is that they don't need Shaq. You were already saying that the Lakers weren't going to go far into the playoffs anyways...but if that's the case, tell me how the Bulls did it with just Jordan and Pippen? Kobe and Odom are the closest duo to MJ and Pip...and then you add on Butler, Grant, Divac, Rush, Walton...this team has the potential to get really far into the playoffs.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">What my point was is that they don't need Shaq. You were already saying that the Lakers weren't going to go far into the playoffs anyways...but if that's the case, tell me how the Bulls did it with just Jordan and Pippen? Kobe and Odom are the closest duo to MJ and Pip...and then you add on Butler, Grant, Divac, Rush, Walton...this team has the potential to get really far into the playoffs.</div> Odom and Kobe aren't the closest to Pippen and Jordan and for you to say that is ridiculous. Has Odom shown himself to be a prepare stopper or be able to drop 40 on someone on any given night? Has Kobe ever displayed the leadership capabilities of Jordan? No he hasn't. Kobe was hugely successful with Shaq because Shaq drew the double/triple teams and took alot of pressure off Kobe to do his thing. We'll see what kind of leader Kobe is this year and we'll see if he can do it. However calling Odom & Kobe the next Jordan & Pippen is ridiculous to say the least. Odom and Kobe have a loooooooong way to go to be compared to those two.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I can safely say that we would've won those three championships with Ben Wallace, Yao Ming, Jamaal Magloire, or even Erick Dampier...instead of Shaq, and here's why... </div> I'm gonna have to disagree with that. It is true that those players would be great but they don't add up to the scoring capability of Shaq. NONE of them. In the 2004 playoffs, it was only Shaq/Kobe doing the scoring. And it was Shaq who freed up spot-up players (who kept bricking), it was Kobe who drove and dished it for the open two's and threes. It was Kobe and Shaq who generated the offense. None of the players you listed above have that kind of arsenal, not even Ming. Ming is defendable one on one. If it wasn't for Shaq, we would have gotten even more blown out in those games in the Finals by the Pistons. What I meant in my other post was that they failed to provide LA with better backups. Say the Lakers had Mark Blount or even Todd Mcallough or even a old Dikembe playing backup center rather then the likes of Omar Cook or an aging power forward like Horace Grant, then the Lakers would have continued winning in all those days Shaq wasn't playing. During the 2002-2003 season, without Shaq, the Lakers sturggled because they had no strong presence in the middle. It is argueable that if they had a legit center, even someone like Vlade or Mutumbo, they could have easily won more games. That is the point I'm trying to make. As for the whole Jordan/Pippen thing, I'm also going to have to disagree. Those two thrived in time when big men weren't needed as much as today. Look at all the champions (3) since the Jordan era ended (or even after his first retirement). They all had a big man involved (Hakeem, Tim, Shaq, Big Ben). Especially in the 00's, you need to have a strong prescence in the middle. I think Vlade is strong enough to lead them somewhat far into the playoffs but they are not yet strong enough in the center position to win a title.
I make a thread to cheer up Laker fans, but people come in and try and kill its purpose...thanks. First off, I never said that Kobe/Odom were the next Jordan/Pippen...I said that they are the closest thing to the great duo, or have the potential to be. Name another SG/SF combo that are better... Also, everyone needs to understand that you don't need a center to win the rings. Duncan and Garnett aren't centers...Rasho and Olowokandi are. I think this is the biggest problems as to why our own fans are doubting our success...because they are brainwashed to think that we need a 26+ PPG scoring center, which is not true. If we get Malone, he can defend Duncan better than anyone else I've seen...and I won't be worried about the Spurs as much. To spawn...I realize what you were saying, so it's all good.
realdealbneal:You did a good job trying to make this a positive thread :thumbsup: The comments i made were just simple questions to Laker fans,and i know that's funny coming from a Kings fan Seriously,there's always someone that will say something that's not cool,and that's the nature of these message board. Laker fans i believe have good reasons to be happy,esp with Kobe getting off the hook :thumbsup: So i believe you acomplished the purpose of this thread.
You can't really compare these lakers to the Bulls' teams of the 90's. Lets at least wait for the opportunity to see them play some games before we do any comparing because right now, we have no idea how good (or bad) this team really is. On paper, this team really doesn't look like they have enough fire power IMO to challenge for a title. Hopefully, I'm wrong .... I'm excited nonetheless... btw, its unfair to compare duos that haven't even played together to Jordan-Pippen, but if u really really had to do it, I think the potiential of Kobe-Butler is a better comparison than Kobe-Odom...
well I wasn't making negative comments about anything,simply wanting to know how someone came to some of these conclusions.
Life should be lived by Thinking Positive and that is what us Laker Fans are doing Thinking Positive.
Bryant/Odom is a pretty good duo. Also, I'd personally say that Nowitski/Finley, Lewis/Allen, Garnett/Cassell, Marion/Johnson, and Stojakovic/Bibby among others are pretty good. They don't all quite fall into that SF/SG mold, but there's always a little room in those categories. You just have to stay positive and hope the rest of the team gels, because basketball is a team game, and while Kobe certainly tips the weights in any individual matchup there is, he can't carry every game alone. (Though he can certainly carry one here and there).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MR_SAC_KING:</div><div class="quote_post">realdealbneal:You did a good job trying to make this a positive thread :thumbsup: The comments i made were just simple questions to Laker fans,and i know that's funny coming from a Kings fan Seriously,there's always someone that will say something that's not cool,and that's the nature of these message board. Laker fans i believe have good reasons to be happy,esp with Kobe getting off the hook :thumbsup: So i believe you acomplished the purpose of this thread. </div> Just had to be a sactown fan comin in to post in a laker thread. haha.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">I make a thread to cheer up Laker fans, but people come in and try and kill its purpose...thanks. First off, I never said that Kobe/Odom were the next Jordan/Pippen...I said that they are the closest thing to the great duo, or have the potential to be. Name another SG/SF combo that are better... Also, everyone needs to understand that you don't need a center to win the rings. Duncan and Garnett aren't centers...Rasho and Olowokandi are. I think this is the biggest problems as to why our own fans are doubting our success...because they are brainwashed to think that we need a 26+ PPG scoring center, which is not true. If we get Malone, he can defend Duncan better than anyone else I've seen...and I won't be worried about the Spurs as much. To spawn...I realize what you were saying, so it's all good.</div> Duncan and Garnett are not centers, but they are both over seven feet tall (although Garnett is listed at 6'11") I think that helps a bit not to mention they both shoot pretty well unlike some people and have mvp awards unlike Odam who has not proven anything to the NBA yet. Truth is man you can try all the positive thinking you want try saying Kobe is the next big thing or that he was up agenst better talent in the finals then Shaq, but after losing the greatest and most dominate player of our time there is no compensation for that. What is to say that Odam will not regress and become what he was when he was a Clipper a player who gets mixed up with the wrong stuff and is lost on the court. Also Malone defend duncan well????? He will be what 41 or 42 if he comes back next seaosn he can not keep up with players like Duncan and Garnett any more like was shown in this years playoffs. Also wont be worried about the Spurs as much?!?!? They got Barry a big upgrade and without fisher and a few lucky shots and also without a good solid body in the paint like Shaq what says the Lakers are better than the Spurs? At this point I consider the Wolves or Spurs the contenders for the crown out west and then also I would put Houston over the Lakers if they get more solid players.
Man, everyone...I better stop posting topics about basketball. I didn't realize that every championship team needs Shaq. So I guess we all know who's going to win the championship next year, and the year after...and after that...and so on. By the way...who's to say that Odom will become a bad player? Well...who's to say that both Shaq and Duncan won't bust their kneecaps in the playoffs, and the Lakers won't make it all the way and win? Fisher hit the game-winner in San Antonio...but the Lakers won the next game...who's to say that they wouldn't have won Game 7? Shaq has had a chance...between 1992 and 1996...to win a ring by himself, but he failed. Iverson has had the chance, McGrady has had the chance... Who's to say that Kobe, when he gets his chance, will lose?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Man, everyone...I better stop posting topics about basketball. I didn't realize that every championship team needs Shaq. </div> That is not really what I am tring to say, but what I am saying is you are over rating the Lakers talent comparing them to the 90 bulls and the players like Duncan and Garnett. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">So I guess we all know who's going to win the championship next year, and the year after...and after that...and so on.</div> All I know is with there current roster and the depth out west it wont be the Lakers without another dominate player. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way...who's to say that Odom will become a bad player? Well...who's to say that both Shaq and Duncan won't bust their kneecaps in the playoffs, and the Lakers won't make it all the way and win? Fisher hit the game-winner in San Antonio...but the Lakers won the next game...who's to say that they wouldn't have won Game 7?</div> Lakers only won the game because Fisher was on there team inthat game. Also who is to say Odam will remain a good player all you have to go by is past experence and in past experences in LA Odam has not done well and in past experences Shaq, nor Duncan have busted there knee caps. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq has had a chance...between 1992 and 1996...to win a ring by himself, but he failed. Iverson has had the chance, McGrady has had the chance... Who's to say that Kobe, when he gets his chance, will lose?</div> Shaq didnt just fail Penny, Grant, and the rest of the magic failed, Iverson did not just fail Mutombo, Mckie, Brown, Snow, and the rest of the Sixers failed, Tmac did not just fail Gooden, Gireck, and the rest of the Magic failed bball is a team game and it takes a team to win not Kobe. With the Talent the Lakers have right now not just kobe I think they will fail.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pure Skillz:</div><div class="quote_post">That is not really what I am tring to say, but what I am saying is you are over rating the Lakers talent comparing them to the 90 bulls and the players like Duncan and Garnett.</div> Never compared them to the Bulls, exactly. I just said that it's possible for the Lakers to win without a big man, because other teams have. Kobe's comparisons to Jordan, and the abilities that Odom can show that resemble a young Pippen...I'm not saying that Kobe/Odom are better, or close...I'm saying that anything is possible, and Shaq is not the only option for any team. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pure Skillz:</div><div class="quote_post">Lakers only won the game because Fisher was on there team inthat game. Also who is to say Odam will remain a good player all you have to go by is past experence and in past experences in LA Odam has not done well and in past experences Shaq, nor Duncan have busted there knee caps.</div> Fisher was on their team in Games 1 and 2 also...why didn't they win those? Maybe because Fisher was inconsistent. Fisher threw up a lucky shot...before that, Duncan threw up a lucky shot (on Shaq, by the way). If you remember right, Kobe is the one who actually gave the Lakers the lead before Duncan's shot. Kobe was the 4th quarter savior...it just so happened that Fisher got away from Ginobili. If Rush, George and Fisher were hitting their shots throughout the game in the first place, there would've been no last-second shot. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Pure Skillz:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq didnt just fail Penny, Grant, and the rest of the magic failed, Iverson did not just fail Mutombo, Mckie, Brown, Snow, and the rest of the Sixers failed, Tmac did not just fail Gooden, Gireck, and the rest of the Magic failed bball is a team game and it takes a team to win not Kobe. With the Talent the Lakers have right now not just kobe I think they will fail.</div> Almost like how everyone thought that the Lakers were going to run through the Pistons, right? Wilt Chamberlain dominated the game without any help. If Shaq was as great as everyone makes him out to be, he should be putting in 50 PPG like Wilt, and winning titles like Bill Russell...but he isn't, not without Kobe anyways. And Shaq did fail...against Hakeem Olajuwon. I don't care how young Shaq was...he was already one of the best in the NBA when he first appeared in the league, so what would that matter? He was schooled by the Dream...and if he would've played better, Penny would've played better. Grant never failed with Jordan...so why did he fail with Shaq? Maybe it's because Shaq has no idea how to make anyone better around him...guys like Kobe have to take IVs and get treated for exhaustion and dehydration, and hit HUGE game-winners, to earn any kind of respect when playing alongside Shaq. Kobe has yet to have a chance by himself...so nobody can say that he will fail. When he doesn't fail, I'll be around.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">And Shaq did fail...against Hakeem Olajuwon. I don't care how young Shaq was...he was already one of the best in the NBA when he first appeared in the league, so what would that matter? He was schooled by the Dream...and if he would've played better, Penny would've played better. Grant never failed with Jordan...so why did he fail with Shaq? Maybe it's because Shaq has no idea how to make anyone better around him...guys like Kobe have to take IVs and get treated for exhaustion and dehydration, and hit HUGE game-winners, to earn any kind of respect when playing alongside Shaq. Kobe has yet to have a chance by himself...so nobody can say that he will fail. When he doesn't fail, I'll be around.</div> good grief. You just baffle me,you try your damndest to discredit Shaq..and thats a shame. Shaq had been in the League three years and it was Penny's second. They failed because they went up against a far more experienced team. And I don't care what kind of slant you put on it,Shaq wasn't good enough to face The Dream at the stage of his career and if you say otherwise you are sadly mistaken. The Dream was the most complete and the best player in the League at the time and Shaq was no competition. That would be like you asking Kobe to effectively guard Michael Jordan in his second/third year in the League. And your comparisons to Wilt are nil. Wilt was the most dominant in the game,he was 5-6 inches taller than most of his couterpart. Thats the reason for Wilt's dominance,he was a big man with all the skills when it was said that couldn't be. No matter what spin you put on it,Shaq is the most dominant player in the game,and those three championships are in LA primarily because of Shaq.
