<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">What about all of the shaq-fan-first-laker-fan-second guys?</div>Do they still make those Well, anyways, they're just as bad too, but my point is, you guys are trying to think positive of a future without shaq right, but it seems part of that process involves discrediting Shaq and bad mouthing him and the Heat, and making it seem like he was always the villain. And not just in this post, in about every time you guys make a post (about anything), you some how manage to find a way to sneak in something bad to say about him.
Bottomline is no matter what you guys say,no matter what spin you put on it Shaquille O'Neal is the PRIMARY & BIGGEST reason for the 3 championships. Kobe is a great player but for you guys to try and play Shaq off as an also-ran is utterly ridiculous. The last couple of seasons Shaq was in LA it was clearly Kobe's team,but before that there was no question whose team it was. How Shaq went the Lakers went. Shaq was the focal point of the team and for them to win Shaq had to play well...those 3 championships wouldn't have happened without Shaq nor would it have happened with any other center. I know you guys are pissed because the way Shaq left but it doesn't give you an excuse to downplay him like you are. With Shaq..3 Championships Without Shaq...Nil
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">The same Kobe that would give it all, and not give Shaq the ball when necessary. Kobe simply tried to do it all and he often forgot about the 7 foot beast down low. Hell, if I was Shaq and I knew that Kobe was going to try an do it all without sharing the ball sometimes and letting the egos clash, I'd keep eating my Krispy Kreme Doughnuts too. Sounds familiar, I saw him play for the Magic every single day and now he's doing the same thing Shaq is doing in Miami.</div> With that said, my point is proven. If he didn't have the respect to address this to the organization instead of taking it to the media, he's no good. If his idea of solving problems was to eat up the Lakers' salary cap for two more years, and sit and get fat, just to be separated from Kobe...he's just about as worthless as Robert Traylor. That's all I have to say on this matter.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">With that said, my point is proven. If he didn't have the respect to address this to the organization instead of taking it to the media, he's no good. If his idea of solving problems was to eat up the Lakers' salary cap for two more years, and sit and get fat, just to be separated from Kobe...he's just about as worthless as Robert Traylor. That's all I have to say on this matter.</div> He didn't work as hard as he COULD have these past couple of seasons but he still worked. Theres no doubting that. Comparing him to Robert Traylor is a joke, they are VERY different. Your point hasn't been proven because Shaq is still dominant, whether he's playing at 80% or 100%. He still gets the job done and I think you're forgetting that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post"> With Shaq..3 Championships Without Shaq...Nil</div> Okay Dre...just one last thing. Without Kobe, would Shaq have had any rings? No. That's all. I had respect for Shaq because of that...never liked him anyways, but I respected him...until recently, where I lost all respect for the man. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">The last couple of seasons Shaq was in LA it was clearly Kobe's team, but before that there was no question whose team it was.</div> Even if I said that Kobe was a factor in those championships, you wouldn't agree. But...the past is history, and Kobe was the man for the past two years, so why is this even a debate as to who to get rid of? Shaq still believed that he was the man, and that's why he had the balls to go out and say that Kobe was selfish and everything. Michael Jordan missed over 9,000 shots in his career, but nobody went at his throat because there was no other player (other than Pippen) that he played with that could. Kobe's time began during the third championship, where there should've been a different Finals MVP...and he knew this, and that's why he walked out on the ceremony. Shaq has lost a few steps, no doubt...so there's no reason for him to go mouthing off about his role on the team, and Kobe's role on the team. This is where I lost respect for him...not where I started to dislike him because I've never liked him in the first place. Ice, you can dislike a player, but still have respect for him...and that's how I WAS with Shaq, until his recent actions. As for heatfan83...I don't wish anything bad on the Heat, because I like Wade, Jones and Dorell...but with Shaq, I don't want him to win anything...and that means that the Heat will fail, also, if that is the case.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay Dre...just one last thing. Without Kobe, would Shaq have had any rings? No. That's all.</div>I don't think that was his point though (to discredit Kobe), it was to give credit to Shaq.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay Dre...just one last thing. Without Kobe, would Shaq have had any rings? No. That's all.</div> I think he would. Look at Kobe's stats the first two championship season. It gives to reason that Shaq could have won a title with someone other than Kobe at the 2 guard. Kobe had yet to come into his own those two seasons and wasn't yet the player he would become. Plug another good shooting guard into that slot and its safe to say it would have netted the same result. Why you ask? Because Shaq took so much pressure off everyone else anyone could have success in the back court. Despite what you say much of Kobe's sucess can be attributed to having Shaq drawing double and triple teams. You can't deny that no matter how hard you try.
Ok what i dont understand is why everybody is dissing on BOTH Shaq and Kobe. This argument is pointless because they both had a part in winning all 3 championships they won. Kobe makes many clutch shots and contributes to his team alot and same goes for Shaq. They both did it together. Not just Shaq and not just Kobe. I see that ppl think Shaq is better than Kobe and Shaq shouldnt have been traded because that was his team and Shaq this Shaq that. Shaq is gonna retire after this year because hes gonna injure his big toe. Keeping Kobe on the Lakers was the best thing the Lakers could have done. They already made the mistake of trading off a future HOF by the name of Gary Payton for some sorry losers from the Celtics so why make another mistake of not resigning Kobe and keeping the fat or well should i say skinny Shaq. If they would have kept Shaq and got rid of Kobe....The Lakers would be history. Shaq getting skinny isnt a good thing for the Miami Heat either. If Shaq happened to stay on the Lakers without Kobe...he would have had to lead that team and he aint as fat as he used to be so that wont be an easy task but for Kobe it would be IMO because he would be just like Iverson and get close to leading his team to the playoffs or the Finals but it probably wouldnt happen the first year. If Malone happens to come back to the Lakers also...that will be something great. He might be old but he still intends on playing. The Lakers would honestly do better with Lamar Odom, Kobe Bryant, Caron Butler, Kareem Rush, and possibly Karl Malone than they would do with just Shaq and Kobe. Shaq is too old to carry on a team...weve all seen that his point average goes down every year for cryin out loud. WHAT DOES THAT TELL U? That hes gonna be even worse next year. I honestly believe that Dwyane Wade will almost score more than Shaq and thats pretty damn sad. Shaq will be around 23 ppg due to how skinny he got...Wade will average about 20 ppg this year...and we can forget about another aging player by the name of Eddie Jones...he'll put in about 19 ppg tho. This is just my opinion on everything thats been said today in this thread....Shaq is gettin old and Kobe is gettin stronger....in the end....Kobe will turn out to be the better player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheAnswerIsAi3:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok what i dont understand is why everybody is dissing on BOTH Shaq and Kobe.</div> nowhere,in any post did I ever disrespect Kobe Bryant.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">nowhere,in any post did I ever disrespect Kobe Bryant.</div> I didnt say <font color="Red">Dre</font> in general....just a couple ppl like Ice and all them lol
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">I think he would. Look at Kobe's stats the first two championship season. It gives to reason that Shaq could have won a title with someone other than Kobe at the 2 guard. Kobe had yet to come into his own those two seasons and wasn't yet the player he would become. Plug another good shooting guard into that slot and its safe to say it would have netted the same result. Why you ask? Because Shaq took so much pressure off everyone else anyone could have success in the back court. Despite what you say much of Kobe's sucess can be attributed to having Shaq drawing double and triple teams. You can't deny that no matter how hard you try.</div> I think what I'm trying to hint at is that it's assuming...you don't really know how Shaq would've done, because there are advantages to having Kobe on your team as well. Kobe had 3 years before they won the championship, if you remember right. In fact, Shaq/Kobe (the duo together) were with each other for three years...then Phil Jackson came along, and the year that they won their <u>first title</u>, Kobe shot 47% from the field, put in 23 PPG, 6 RPG, and 5 APG. If that's not good, I don't know what is...so Kobe was important to the team. Put in another SG? The next year, Kobe shot 46% from the field and put in 28.5 PPG, 6 RPG and 5 APG. That's the second championship year. After that, Kobe shot 47%, put in 26 PPG, 5.5 RPG and 5 APG. The third championship. Kobe had a HUGE role in the championships...without Kobe, Shaq couldn't have done it. Without Shaq, Kobe couldn't have done it. We'll see what happens this time around.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheAnswerIsAi3:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt say <font color="Red">Dre</font> in general....just a couple ppl like Ice and all them lol </div> And NO WHERE did I say anything negative about Kobe's talents on-court.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">And NO WHERE did I say anything negative about Kobe's talents on-court.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">The same Kobe that would give it all, and not give Shaq the ball when necessary. Kobe simply tried to do it all and he often forgot about the 7 foot beast down low. Hell, if I was Shaq and I knew that Kobe was going to try an do it all without sharing the ball sometimes and letting the egos clash, I'd keep eating my Krispy Kreme Doughnuts too. </div> That sure looks like ur sayin somethin bout Kobe....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheAnswerIsAi3:</div><div class="quote_post">That sure looks like ur sayin somethin bout Kobe.... </div> Haha.. Not dishing the ball off enough really doesn't have much to do with his other abilities. Also toss out the part where I praised him for being so clutch people hate him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Haha.. Not dishing the ball off enough really doesn't have much to do with his other abilities. Also toss out the part where I praised him for being so clutch people hate him.</div> An on-court ability is dishing passes, and doing it frequently when needed. You said that Shaq didn't get the ball enough...therefore, you're saying that he would've been able to score more...therefore, Kobe made bad decisions NOT passing him the ball. That, to most people, is considered an on-court "flaw" and that's fine...except every player has flaws, especially Shaq...free throws, stamina, jumpers, dribbling, athleticism, weight control (until he hits Miami sun)...those are all of Shaq's flaws. Not to mention looking someone straight into their eyes jk
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">That, to most people, is considered an on-court "flaw" and that's fine...except every player has flaws, especially Shaq...free throws, stamina, jumpers, dribbling, athleticism, weight control (until he hits Miami sun)...those are all of Shaq's flaws.</div> Yet he still has a league MVP, last years All Star mvp and 3 finals MVP while Kobe has only one all star mvp award. You cant discredit Shaqs abilities despite all those supposed flaws you listed he is still the most dominate force in the league and weather you say Kobe is good or bad you can not just completely discredit Shaqs abilities because he proved he can lead a team to the finals and thjat was what in less than 5 seasons in the league and he was facing what the most dominate player of his time at that position. Shaq right now is the most dominate player to walk on a basketball court and losing him means nothing positive to discredit his skills and say you where never a shaq fan is just total bull and a slap in the face to the big man.
Kobe was not that big of a factor in the first championship's FINALS....he only averaged 15.3 if I remember correctly...the 2nd championship, he had around 20 something but by the 3rd championship he was on the same level as Shaq, if he had not surpassed him already.... In the first two championships, if you had....say a then-not-so-injury-prone Vince Carter, it was very likely that the Lakers would have still won. You guys are forgetting that in '00 and '01, Vince was more lethal then Kobe on the offensive end and would have been very benificery to the the Lakers. In '00 and '01, NO ONE could stop Shaq, he was just unstoppable in the '00 and '01 playoffs, so if you had put someone like vince Carter or even Ray Allen, the Lakers would have still won, it was inevitable. But those situations are hypothetical 'what ifs' and can't be proven so its useless trying to discredit Kobe's or Shaq's performances in those playoffs. The fact remains, since neither Ray nor Vince was on the Lakers squads during those runs, that Shaq wouldn't have won those 3 rings without Kobe and Kobe wouldn't have 3 championships without Shaq. They won 3 straight, and thats amazing in itself. Shaq owned the first two playoffs run but by the 3rd one, Kobe had come into his own dominant force and the Lakers were downright unstoppable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">An on-court ability is dishing passes, and doing it frequently when needed. You said that Shaq didn't get the ball enough...therefore, you're saying that he would've been able to score more...therefore, Kobe made bad decisions NOT passing him the ball.</div> Not exactly, I don't know how your interpreting my posts. The reasons Kobe and Shaq were having conflicts were because of him not dishing the ball when NECESSARY. And I've said it before, but I'll say it again - their egos clashed and Kobe just let his ego get in the way. (Thats his downfall, and thats what I've been saying) Him not passing it is irrelevant to his actual skills and it actually interfers more with his ego than anything else.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yet he still has a league MVP, last years All Star mvp and 3 finals MVP while Kobe has only one all star mvp award. You cant discredit Shaqs abilities despite all those supposed flaws you listed he is still the most dominate force in the league and weather you say Kobe is good or bad you can not just completely discredit Shaqs abilities because he proved he can lead a team to the finals and thjat was what in less than 5 seasons in the league and he was facing what the most dominate player of his time at that position. Shaq right now is the most dominate player to walk on a basketball court and losing him means nothing positive to discredit his skills and say you where never a shaq fan is just total bull and a slap in the face to the big man. </div> That is true, yes, but I think the point that realbneal has been trying to make this whole time is that Laker fans should look forward to a Shaq-less season. no more whining about not touching the ball, no more waiting for the big fella to drag himself up the floor, no more Kobe-Shaq feuds within the own team. No more drama. No one is discrediting Shaq, Shaq deserves almost all the praises for the 3 championships. But it's time to move on. Forget Shaq, he's on the downpath of his career while Kobe is moving up and can only improve while Shaq is slowly but surely declining. That is the main point of this thread. The Lakers still can do well, there's no way can say "losing him means nothing positive" for Laker fans. That's bull. That's like Pistons fans saying "losing Stackhouse for Rip was nothing positive"....There were plenty of people upset about that trade probably, but two years later, the Pistons are world champions...Everyone has this feeling the Lakers will fail without Shaq, but you don't know that? Who would have thought that Rip would be a pivotal part of the Pistons championship run? All I'm saying is that you don't know what's going to happen with this Laker team. They might lost out in the playoffs for a couple of years but In my opinion, they will be at the top again in the near future.
Final words about Shaq... He's got an ego too, the same size as Kobe. Kobe couldn't win without Shaq, and Shaq couldn't win without Kobe...but then, we were talking about a younger Kobe who wasn't doing much offensively until the 3rd championship. Shaq has had his chance to do this himself and failed. Yes, he was young (see above, also) but he was one of the best centers in the game and he was putting up HUGE numbers. There's a difference. Kevin Garnett came out of high school and wasn't considered one of the best until recently. Not passing to Shaq when necessary is saying that Kobe's awareness is poor on the offensive end. That's called a flaw. How many MVP's and Finals MVP's would Shaq win this time around, if the Lakers were to win three more consecutive championships? Maybe one or two, but not all three. Shaq > Kobe from 1996 - 2000 (two championships in that span). I would hope so. From that point, Kobe exceeded Shaq and started to take over the team, hitting clutch shots and being the 4th quarter savior for when Shaq was sitting the bench with 5 fouls. There's the facts. Nothing more to say on the subject...let's get back to the Lakers without Shaq.
