Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 30 2007, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What team has more trade bait than NJ? As I explained before, VC/Williams/draft pick is a great option for both teams, and NJ will provide a better team than teams like the Bulls, Magic, Bobcats, etc... This is irrelevent. Without Kobe, the Nets are a 50+ win team when healthy and should have beat Cleveland this year. Kobe wouldn't have absolutely sucked and choked like VC did, which lost the series. Next year with Krstic back, and the addition of Kobe, this team will be back in the Finals and have a good shot to win it all.</div>Why do the Lakers want VC when they already have Kobe(whose much better)?Marcus Williams(a pg who averaged 2ppg in the playoffs) and a pick in the middle of the draft when they could get alot more for Kobe then that?The Lakers would be a worse team after that deal if anything. They would get a young pg but how many years does VC have left? That trade would set them back further then shaq deal did.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... you guys cant say who will and will not get Kobe. Not trading for Kidd or Garnett to help him out was what made him mad in the first place. he wants to play with another superstar, so I think if you do get kobe, this is what you'll have to doSign and Trade-Vince Carter,Jason Collins1st round pick, cash or Marcus Williamsfor KobeSmush Parkerfuture second round player.that sounds far-fetched, but its possible
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with this, but I think that the Lakers are too proud of a franchise to be one of the 3-4 worst teams in the league...which is what they will be if they go the Bulls route. With VC they get a proven 25/6/5 guy who sells out arenas and will keep them competitive.</div>I don't see the VC deal making them that much more competitive than the Bulls deal. VC is also not one to have played a full season. So banking on him with his age, a contract like that would be death for the Lakers franchise. And if they are too proud, they should not do that deal.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ May 31 2007, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why do the Lakers want VC when they already have Kobe(whose much better)?Marcus Williams(a pg who averaged 2ppg in the playoffs) and a pick in the middle of the draft when they could get alot more for Kobe then that?The Lakers would be a worse team after that deal if anything. They would get a young pg but how many years does VC have left? That trade would set them back further then shaq deal did.</div>No matter who they trade Kobe for you will not get equal value. This trade would keep them competitive, give them a nice PG in Williams and a draft pick. The Chicago deal gives them more youth, but they would be crap in the near future and IMO neither Hinrich or Gordon have superstar potential. Also remember Kobe can pick and choose what trade he wants to get done as long as the Lakers are on board...the Nets situation would give them a better shot at a ring IMO.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't see the VC deal making them that much more competitive than the Bulls deal. VC is also not one to have played a full season. So banking on him with his age, a contract like that would be death for the Lakers franchise. And if they are too proud, they should not do that deal.</div>The only reason the Lakers have stayed competitive the past 2 years is Kobe's scoring. Neither Hinrich and Gordon are consistent scorers. VC isn't as consistent as Kobe, but he will give you the 25-27PPG, grab 6-7RPG, and dish out a few assists as well. And while Marcus Williams is no Kirk Hinrich, he still has a lot of upside and had some GREAT games for the Nets.VC has been the most reliable player on this Nets roster since joining us. Since leaving Toronto he has missed a total of maybe 6-10 games.If Kobe truly wants out, they will need to trade him. The rebuilding process will need to start as soon as possible, and you don't want an unhappy star who has little respect for manangement on your team.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 31 2007, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No matter who they trade Kobe for you will not get equal value. This trade would keep them competitive, give them a nice PG in Williams and a draft pick. The Chicago deal gives them more youth, but they would be crap in the near future and IMO neither Hinrich or Gordon have superstar potential. Also remember Kobe can pick and choose what trade he wants to get done as long as the Lakers are on board...the Nets situation would give them a better shot at a ring IMO.The only reason the Lakers have stayed competitive the past 2 years is Kobe's scoring. Neither Hinrich and Gordon are consistent scorers. VC isn't as consistent as Kobe, but he will give you the 25-27PPG, grab 6-7RPG, and dish out a few assists as well. And while Marcus Williams is no Kirk Hinrich, he still has a lot of upside and had some GREAT games for the Nets.VC has been the most reliable player on this Nets roster since joining us. Since leaving Toronto he has missed a total of maybe 6-10 games.If Kobe truly wants out, they will need to trade him. The rebuilding process will need to start as soon as possible, and you don't want an unhappy star who has little respect for manangement on your team.</div>Gordon isnt a consistent scorer? Maybe in his rookie season but Gordon this year proved he could score night in and night out scoring over 20 per game. I also dont see Hinrich or Gordon as ''Superstars'' but both have the ability to become allstars. Your saying you'd rather have a SG whose done nothing but score points his entire career whose entering his mid-30s soon and a pg who averaged 2 ppg during the playoffs then the main two players who took out the defending nba champion heat? When the Bulls start winning championships soon remember how good a pair VC/Williams is.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ May 31 2007, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Gordon isn't a consistent scorer? Maybe in his rookie season but Gordon this year proved he could score night in and night out scoring over 20 per game. I also dont see Hinrich or Gordon as ''Superstars'' but both have the ability to become allstars. Your saying you'd rather have a SG whose done nothing but score points his entire career whose entering his mid-30s soon and a pg who averaged 2 ppg during the playoffs then the main two players who took out the defending nba champion heat? When the Bulls start winning championships soon remember how good a pair VC/Williams is.</div><span style="font-family:Courier New">Carter does a lot more then score. He can rebound very well and is also a very underrated passer. Again you say Gordon wasn't a very consistent scorer in his rookie season, but Williams is a rookie. He had a very hard post season, yeah. But he is going to continue to become a very good PG in this league. You can't judge how he is going to be in the future by his first postseason.</span>
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... Honestly Nitro, the only reason this trade even sounds competent on your viewpoint is your a Nets fan. The trade is not good for the Lakers. VC led Lakers team in the West is not going to have a large margin of victories against a Hinrich/Gordon/Odom team in the West. The only difference is the flexibility Lakers have with the Bulls trade opposed to the Nets one. It's far better and smarter for a proud Lakers franchise to pass and never do the Nets one.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ May 31 2007, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Gordon isnt a consistent scorer? Maybe in his rookie season but Gordon this year proved he could score night in and night out scoring over 20 per game. I also dont see Hinrich or Gordon as ''Superstars'' but both have the ability to become allstars. Your saying you'd rather have a SG whose done nothing but score points his entire career whose entering his mid-30s soon and a pg who averaged 2 ppg during the playoffs then the main two players who took out the defending nba champion heat? When the Bulls start winning championships soon remember how good a pair VC/Williams is.</div>Yes, he scores 20PPG but it is a very inconsistent 20PPG. He is not the kind of guy who you can depend on to get those 20 points one game, then the very next get around 20. He is the kind of guy who will go for 30, then the next night 12.Carter does WAY more than score. He grabs 6-7RPG, gets you around 5APG, can play the point when PG is sitting down, etc...If the BUlls start winning championships, Hinrich and Gordon will be role players...the 3rd and 4th best players on their teams.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Honestly Nitro, the only reason this trade even sounds competent on your viewpoint is your a Nets fan. The trade is not good for the Lakers. VC led Lakers team in the West is not going to have a large margin of victories against a Hinrich/Gordon/Odom team in the West. The only difference is the flexibility Lakers have with the Bulls trade opposed to the Nets one. It's far better and smarter for a proud Lakers franchise to pass and never do the Nets one.</div>I agree the Bulls trade is smarter and better for the future, but at the same time the Nets trade gives Kobe a much better (IMO) chance to win, Lakers wouldn't be in the shitter which they would with the Bulls trade, and they would still be able to advertise the team and sell out arenas with VC.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 1 2007, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, he scores 20PPG but it is a very inconsistent 20PPG. He is not the kind of guy who you can depend on to get those 20 points one game, then the very next get around 20. He is the kind of guy who will go for 30, then the next night 12.Carter does WAY more than score. He grabs 6-7RPG, gets you around 5APG, can play the point when PG is sitting down, etc...If the BUlls start winning championships, Hinrich and Gordon will be role players...the 3rd and 4th best players on their teams.I agree the Bulls trade is smarter and better for the future, but at the same time the Nets trade gives Kobe a much better (IMO) chance to win, Lakers wouldn't be in the shitter which they would with the Bulls trade, and they would still be able to advertise the team and sell out arenas with VC.</div>Ben Gordon cant give a consistent 20 ppg? doesn't the whole stat that says 20 ppg mean he can score points every night since thats exactly what he did. Lets look at January(one of the biggest months for the bulls) Date OPP Result MIN FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3PT% FTM FTA FT% OFF DEF TOT ASST STL BLK TO PF PTSJan 2 Pho L 96-97 37 13 25 .520 2 5 .400 13 14 .929 0 3 3 4 1 1 3 5 41Jan 5 @NJ L 86-91 34 7 17 .412 1 6 .167 0 0 .000 0 0 0 3 0 0 6 5 15Jan 6 Det W 106-89 32 8 18 .444 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 4 3 0 4 3 23Jan 8 Hou L 77-84 35 8 16 .500 2 4 .500 6 7 .857 1 3 4 5 1 0 1 1 24Jan 10 @Was L 103-113 35 7 16 .438 5 6 .833 6 6 1.000 0 5 5 3 0 0 3 3 25Jan 11 NJ L 83-86 37 8 13 .615 5 6 .833 2 2 1.000 1 2 3 0 1 1 1 3 23Jan 13 Mem W 111-66 27 8 10 .800 4 6 .667 4 4 1.000 0 2 2 6 0 0 2 1 24Jan 15 SA W 99-87 40 9 18 .500 1 5 .200 1 2 .500 1 1 2 3 0 0 4 3 20Jan 17 @Mil W 99-90 37 8 17 .471 2 6 .333 2 4 .500 0 1 1 6 2 0 3 3 20Jan 20 Uta L 85-95 40 7 20 .350 0 4 .000 9 11 .818 1 3 4 6 1 1 4 4 23Jan 22 @Ind L 91-98 37 11 18 .611 3 5 .600 6 7 .857 2 2 4 2 1 0 4 5 31Jan 23 Atl W 94-86 31 5 13 .385 0 2 .000 2 2 1.000 0 1 1 5 0 0 5 3 12Jan 25 Dal W 96-85 44 12 23 .522 0 1 .000 6 6 1.000 0 6 6 5 2 0 3 1 30Jan 27 Mia W 100-97 38 11 17 .647 2 3 .667 10 13 .769 1 5 6 7 1 0 1 2 34Jan 31 @LAC L 98-110 33 5 15 .333 0 1 .000 7 8 .875 0 4 4 4 0 1 5 3 17Not to mention Vince Carter only scores 2 more ppg and hes 30. I'd much rather have a young kid who wins sixth man of the year his rookie season, then in his 3rd season takes apart the defending champs. The nets beat who again in the playoffs? Oh yeah the raptors... and before that they've lost how many times in the first round? Ben Gordon has more potential and hes been a winner. Not a not so clutch aging sg. If the Lakers got Hinrich/Gordon they would still be a playoff team. Lakers fans want to see them win games, not sell out arenas(by winning you sell out arenas anyway.) BTW if Vince Carter sells so much tickets why are the nets relocating? :no3:
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I agree the Bulls trade is smarter and better for the future, but at the same time the Nets trade gives Kobe a much better (IMO) chance to win, Lakers wouldn't be in the shitter which they would with the Bulls trade, and they would still be able to advertise the team and sell out arenas with VC.</div>A chance to win what? A playoff berth? I really doubt it, they would be worse than the current Lakers with VC instead of Kobe. And Lakers were 7th in a tough Western conference that should mightily improve this season. Can't see them winning anything but some lottery balls and being stuck with a overpaid star.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 1 2007, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ben Gordon cant give a consistent 20 ppg? doesn't the whole stat that says 20 ppg mean he can score points every night since thats exactly what he did. Lets look at January(one of the biggest months for the bulls)</div>Biggest month for the Bulls? They went 7 - 8 when he constantly scores 20 a game so that isn't showing much.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>BTW if Vince Carter sells so much tickets why are the nets relocating? :no3:</div>They play in a area where barely anyone lives and is a pain to reach while the arena has low quality everything so we are moving to Brooklyn for a better facility and also so more people will be able to watch.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Jun 1 2007, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Biggest month for the Bulls? They went 7 - 8 when he constantly scores 20 a game so that isn't showing much.They play in a area where barely anyone lives and is a pain to reach while the arena has low quality everything so we are moving to Brooklyn for a better facility and also so more people will be able to watch.</div>I meant Junary is usually always the month our team slumps, so seeing as how he scored 20 or more a night very consistently it speaks well for him. Ben Gordon isnt the bulls savior but his scoring helps us alot, espically in the clutch. The Nets may play in an area of little interest but that just means even with Vince Carter and Jkidd they still dont sell tickets which is exactly my point.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 1 2007, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I meant Junary is usually always the month our team slumps, so seeing as how he scored 20 or more a night very consistently it speaks well for him. Ben Gordon isnt the bulls savior but his scoring helps us alot, espically in the clutch. The Nets may play in an area of little interest but that just means even with Vince Carter and Jkidd they still dont sell tickets which is exactly my point.</div><span style="font-family:Courier New">If you put the Bulls where the Nets play, they wouldn't sell out either. Its all about location. You can say all you want about how bad the fans are and everything, but until you go there and experience everything that you have to go through to get there, you can't really talk. </span>
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... [quote name='PrimeTime' post='369990' date='Jun 1 2007, 10:17 AM']Ben Gordon cant give a consistent 20 ppg? doesn't the whole stat that says 20 ppg mean he can score points every night since thats exactly what he did. Lets look at January(one of the biggest[/quote]20PPG is an average, but doesn't tell the whole story. For instance last year (05/06) LeBron scored 5 more PPG than Wade, but Wade was much more consistent from game to game and team to team with his scoring. You used Gordon's hottest month, but he also had months were one game he'd score 30, and the next go 4-11. With other good scorers on the team, and the fact that Gordon starts just over half the games, he doesn't have huge pressure on him like superstar scorers do. If he went to LA he'd have WAY more pressure from the defense on him, and his scoring would take a big hit. You beat the Heat largely due to Wade, their best player, was at about 70% and they hadn't played with their full roster the whole season. Not to mention Gordon wasn't even the best player in the series...Deng was (26PPG on 58% shooting). They lost once in the first round, 2 years back to a great Miami team who was rolling. Not to mention RJ was hurt. If you were taking a shot at the Nets franchise, look at what we have done the past 5 years or so compared to the Bulls. Hell, even this year we got as far as you guys did (and that was with our only scoring big man out).VC has been to the semi's I believe 3x in his career, and in playoffs multiple times. Do not tell me he hasn't been successful and isn't a winner. Gordon has been out of the first round ONCE. VC actually scores about 10PPG more on 12% better shooting in the clutch. VC is a clutch player. I don't think you watch enough Lakers games to actually see what Kobe does for that team. With the reoccuring injuries the team has, they have needed Kobe to drop 40PPG in a month and it is still barely enough to keep them winning. Defenses will be far tighter on Gordon and Hinrich than they were in Chicago.VC sells out arenas, easier to market, will sell more jersies, etc... If they go the Bulls route they will lose TV deals, jersies sales will be far lower, arenas won't be selling out, etc... That decision was made before VC joined the Nets. Since he has arrived he has has the hottest selling jersey for the franchise, more people have come to games, and he is extremely popular. Well, if Lamar can stay healthy, and the additions of VC (who, while not Kobe, still gives you a lot and can carry a team) and Marcus Williams (nice upgrade from Smush) they can contend for a playoff spot. Mightily improve? Doubt it. Spurs and Clips are getting older, Memphis/T-Wolves/etc will likely stay in the crapper, and I personally don't see Portland or Seattle getting marginally better in the first year with Durant/Oden. Only teams I can see being better are the Warriors and the Nuggets.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Well, if Lamar can stay healthy, and the additions of VC (who, while not Kobe, still gives you a lot and can carry a team) and Marcus Williams (nice upgrade from Smush) they can contend for a playoff spot.</div>I just don't see it but that's your opinion.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 1 2007, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>20PPG is an average, but doesn't tell the whole story. For instance last year (05/06) LeBron scored 5 more PPG than Wade, but Wade was much more consistent from game to game and team to team with his scoring. You used Gordon's hottest month, but he also had months were one game he'd score 30, and the next go 4-11. With other good scorers on the team, and the fact that Gordon starts just over half the games, he doesn't have huge pressure on him like superstar scorers do. If he went to LA he'd have WAY more pressure from the defense on him, and his scoring would take a big hit.You beat the Heat largely due to Wade, their best player, was at about 70% and they hadn't played with their full roster the whole season. Not to mention Gordon wasn't even the best player in the series...Deng was (26PPG on 58% shooting).They lost once in the first round, 2 years back to a great Miami team who was rolling. Not to mention RJ was hurt. If you were taking a shot at the Nets franchise, look at what we have done the past 5 years or so compared to the Bulls. Hell, even this year we got as far as you guys did (and that was with our only scoring big man out).VC has been to the semi's I believe 3x in his career, and in playoffs multiple times. Do not tell me he hasn't been successful and isn't a winner. Gordon has been out of the first round ONCE. VC actually scores about 10PPG more on 12% better shooting in the clutch. VC is a clutch player.I don't think you watch enough Lakers games to actually see what Kobe does for that team. With the reoccuring injuries the team has, they have needed Kobe to drop 40PPG in a month and it is still barely enough to keep them winning. Defenses will be far tighter on Gordon and Hinrich than they were in Chicago.VC sells out arenas, easier to market, will sell more jersies, etc... If they go the Bulls route they will lose TV deals, jersies sales will be far lower, arenas won't be selling out, etc... That decision was made before VC joined the Nets. Since he has arrived he has has the hottest selling jersey for the franchise, more people have come to games, and he is extremely popular.Well, if Lamar can stay healthy, and the additions of VC (who, while not Kobe, still gives you a lot and can carry a team) and Marcus Williams (nice upgrade from Smush) they can contend for a playoff spot. Mightily improve? Doubt it. Spurs and Clips are getting older, Memphis/T-Wolves/etc will likely stay in the crapper, and I personally don't see Portland or Seattle getting marginally better in the first year with Durant/Oden. Only teams I can see being better are the Warriors and the Nuggets.</div>Deng was a big part of the bulls success over the heat but without Gordons clutch shots and big games during the playoffs we wouldnt have beat them. As far as a Nets/bulls comparison you played a very easy schedule. We competed with much higher level teams. If we would have gotten the second seed(which we basically had) We would have swept the nets and probably made it to the finals if the cavs would have beaten miami and detroit. Instead we played the two toughest teams in out conference back to back and beat the heat then we nearly beat the Pistons if it werent for the game where we lost an 18 point lead to end up losing the game at home. Spurs and clippers have both proven they can play and the hornets will also be back you forgot to mention. Right now their could be a lot of big moves involving the west as soon as the playoffs end so its presumptious to say who will be better or not though.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... [quote name='PrimeTime' post='370875' date='Jun 1 2007, 11:26 PM']Deng was a big part of the bulls success over the heat but without Gordons clutch shots and big games during the playoffs we wouldnt have beat them.[/quote]I am not saying Gordon wasn't a big part of their success, but you make it seem like he was D-Wade in the Finals or LeBron in game 5 vs the Pistons and he single handedly beat the opponent...it was a team effort led by Deng. Give me a break. You played one extra game or so against the Central division teams, but other than that the schedules were roughly the same. You seem to forget the Nets lost their only low post scorer (16.4PPG before injury) in Nenad Krstic, RJ was hurt about 2 months of the season and never was himself until the last month of the season, and role players like Boone and House were hurt for long stretches. Nets are a 50+ win team when healthy. Hmm, now what team beat you on the last game of the year to push you to a 4/5 seed? Nets have had success against the Bulls this whole season...Bulls were a better team, and likely would have won the series, but it would have went 6-7 games with a possible Nets win. Heat were far from the toughest team in the conference. They hadn't played together all year, their best player was at 70%, and at the end of the year they were playing horrible ball (back to back losses to Bobcats, loss to Celtics, loss to Magic, all in last 2 weeks of season). You act like the Pistons series was all that close...it really wasn't. Pistons kicked the crap out of you guys the first 2 games, and were up 3-0 before having a little hiccup. Nets had leads in the 4th in game 1 & 2, and a sizable lead in game 4. Nets should have at least brought the Cavs to 7 games, and again, this is without their only post player. The fact of the matter is they got as deep as the Bulls in the playoffs. Spurs role players are all at or near retirement, and while I still expect them to be top 3-4 in West next year, they aren't getting any better. Clips are falling like flies, with Livingston likely out for most of season and Cassell and Mobley getting older and older. Hornets will be better, but they are not enoguh to call the West mightily improved next year. Maybe slightly improved, but not as great of a jump as Rok made it out to be.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... I refuse to believe that the Lakers would trade Kobe for Vince Carter and a dud or two...If they're trading Kobe, they need some serious talent....like 2 or 3 players who have the potential to be studs...We're talking about the best player in the league here...They're not gonna trade him for a declining shot jacker/half assed star player who has no heart.
Re: This is the Nets' chance to return to the Finals.... What teams are honestly gonna trade young talent that have potential to be studs that would actually have a shot winning a title? I don't think either Hinrich or Gordon will be superstars in this league, and without those 2 the team loses a lot of what makes them so good right now. I don't think Kobe would win a title with that team, at least not without Hinrich there as well or another very good PG. After the Bulls, very few teams have the young talent and potential to win a title, both of which needed for Kobe to be traded. With the Nets trade they would still be a playoffs team/contender, and room to build around those guys to make a pretty good team. They would also continue to sell jersies and get those TV deals with VC on the team.I wouldn't call Marcus Williams and a 1st round draft pick being duds...VC just had arguably the best season of his career...how is he declining?
