Thybulle is one of the best defensive guards in past 15 years

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by mook, Aug 19, 2023.

  1. mook

    mook The 2018-19 season was the best I've seen

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    Well, he got a significant mention anyway in this podcast ranking the best defensive guards in past 15 years. He seemed to fall just outside top 5:
    https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/...sodes/220-the-best-defenders-of-the-183194188

    They highlighted his unique style of defense (guarding from beside and often behind the ball handler, using length and anticipation to bother shots, basically a force of chaos for both teams lol).

    Transcript of just Matisse talk:

    The third guy in this category for me, Cody is
    Matisse, thyball.
    He's just his own category.
    Well, he's just like, does he play enough minutes?
    Is he too specialized? Is he? Matisse
    is also,
    hard in a sense to rank
    because I think if you were to look
    at his regular season.
    and impact only
    and how destructive he is. And you say,
    we're gonna put him in the right situation. And I think
    Philadelphia was fairly close
    with Joel Embiid behind him.
    And you say, you're a coach and you're more comfortable
    and you say, okay, do your thing, baby.
    Like just get behind everyone,
    run around, be chaotic, be nuts.
    I think his regular season impact would
    stack up pretty well with
    any of these guys. I mean, if you look at
    the metrics we've been talking about in 2021,
    Matisse was first among guards in
    estimated plus minus in the entire NBA.
    He was second overall among all players.
    In 2022, he was second among guards and
    third overall among all players. And
    if I'm remembering off the top of my head,
    the guard that was ahead of him was either super low
    minutes or someone who we wouldn't consider a
    guard, we'd consider him a wing. So basically
    the exact same thing, like first among guards,
    top three among all defenders in the league. Where
    I get more concerned and where I think his career
    has been interesting so far and it'll be interesting,
    like really fascinating to see what happens in Portland. I
    get concerned about a playoff
    setting where you need
    to implement certain things,
    you wanna disrupt what the other team is doing,
    but Matisse is still in that one mold of
    like, oh, I'm gonna let guys
    go by me and then just get crazy. And it's like, I
    don't know if that's gonna generate quite
    the same impact. And so when I stack
    up like, who do I want on a team if
    part of that
    like question is lingering in my head, I
    just, especially with like three or four of these
    guys, I'm just not sure
    what to do with him.
    Yeah, he's on my list. He
    is not number one though. I'll tell you that he is not
    number one on my list. And you know, the wrecking ball
    thing, we've tread this ground so many times,
    but you know, if you look at any player who's
    six, six or shorter ever of
    all time that have played at least a thousand minutes in a.
    He's the only one ever to
    average over two blocks and two steals per 75 possessions
    Basketball index has a statistic
    called passing lane defense Which is basically like
    bad pass steals and deflections
    and they add it together It only goes back to 2017
    but thiebel has the top two
    in those numbers I didn't write this one
    down, but I know that the NBA shot
    charts as a dr. Appm for for
    opposing turnovers
    You know per 100 possessions when a player's
    on the court the last three years I both
    number one there so he causes the most turnovers
    on the court. He's just
    Certifiably, maybe the most
    disruptive perimeter player ever But
    like you said I had to dock him a little bit because
    you just like stick him in front of somebody He
    can get blown by a few times, right? He's
    kind of just like I think in the video you said this It's
    almost like he prefers playing from
    behind on guys. He likes poking it away, but also
    it is also really effective He just
    recovers. He's blocking a shot here He
    just like tell there's a couple plays been rough
    slowed it down to like half speed and it looks like
    I'm watching the matrix Cuz he's moving. Yeah at
    regular speed and everyone else is just like moving.
    I don't know man Just
    an
    unbelievable player you can convince me that
    I'm a little high on him
    But I also just can't ignore some of these other things
    well well here's the issue though It's less
    about him getting blown by and I think there
    are many great defenders Who
    can be weak in an area like that and make
    up for it everywhere else? Scotty
    Pippen is one that comes to mind where some of the quicker
    players he had to defend Could get
    by him a little more than you wanted or a little
    more than everyone else But then everything
    that happens after that in the possession
    you're actually like oh
    these aren't the same breakdowns as Just
    someone being totally flat-footed and space-shotted
    and you know the deal. It's more like Pippen
    still slides with them He might peel switch He
    might actually come in from behind and guard the other
    you know the big man steps up and Pippen's
    there So
    it's not that Matisse has
    weak feet in certain situations or that
    he's having these breakdowns to me
    me the thing with him
    is that he's almost deliberately getting,
    like that's his instinct. His instinct is to almost
    get out of position and create chaos because
    he's so skilled in that area. But that's an
    individual thing,
    right? Then the rest of the team has to make
    up for it. And I, I believe, um, some
    of the coaches
    have been frustrated with that, who have had
    to coach him before. And maybe that's why you
    see situations, Cody, where like he's out of the
    rotation entirely, despite
    these obviously incredible defensive
    skills, despite these numbers. And
    that's where it comes back to playoff stuff for me, where
    I'm just like, man, is
    it easy to harness the
    things that Cody loves about Matisse, that
    I agree are very real this like matrix
    like ability to be disruptive. Some of the
    shot blocking the hands. Um,
    he's very active chasing you off screens.
    Like he's, he's a good defender.
    He's a really good defender. But the question
    is if we're talking about the
    best of the best defenders in
    this category, is that
    something that
    makes it easier to have an effective
    playoff defense than some of the other guys? That's
    where I get a little bit
    stuck. I think that's, that's my concern.
    Okay.
    And I, I hear all those concerns. I do.
    I hear all of them, but I also just really
    highly value all of the other things.
    And maybe, maybe the reframing of it
    is like you hear Greg Popovich talking
    about young Manu Ginobili. And after a while I was like, I
    just had to learn that I had to let him like go out there and do
    his dance titles kind of the same way on defense.
    He's not the same level of brilliance, but it's like the same
    category of just like, let's just harness
    this and let's see where it takes us. I'm glad you
    brought that up because I had that same thought,
    but to me it's asymmetrical
    because on offense, you control the ball
    on defense. You need to work as a unit. And
    I think the thing that people are concerned with, with
    Matisse is that he's making it harder for the
    other four defenders,
    not, not easier for them. So it still
    may work for him,
    right? But in the long run
    they're concerned about the other.
    four defenders on the court.
     
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  2. mook

    mook The 2018-19 season was the best I've seen

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    Matisse is a little like Billups' old teammate Ben Wallace, an unorthodox, no-offense elite defender that you kind of have to build multiple aspects of your team around for both offensive and defensive reasons. I don't know that our personnel come close to being an ideal fit--hell, it's quite likely that Dame, Ant, Scoot, Sharpe and Nurk are the top 5 in minutes played until we trade Dame (and probably Ant). Matisse is our only good defender, and his style is just so unorthodox. It feels like if we get the steal, we'll get points in transition. Every other scenario we're getting scored on.

    It's going to be race to see if we can score 135 points every night. Which, come to think of it, isn't a bad way to tank. It's a lot easier to trade guys when they are having huge scoring nights....
     
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  3. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    I think we got a steal with Thybulle. I want him on the starting roster defending the best scorer on the other team's starting lineup
     
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  4. inconceivable

    inconceivable Well-Known Member

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    Tisse and Ant will be first all defense team this year
     
  5. julius

    julius Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    worst haiku ever.
     
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  6. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Not if the team tanks again like is most likely going to be the case. 14.5% chance here we come!
     
  7. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    Mattise and Shaedon give us two SGs who are just over 6'5" in bare feet. That gives us the size we want at SG, but the question remains .......will one of them have to play SF? Lengthwise that would not be a problem, but weight wise would be my concern. (I think they are both around 201) We need Nas to stay healthy and improve defensively. His 220 frame would help off the bench.

    If we did trade with Miami, Jaime Jaquez would give us some more size at SF at 225.
     
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  8. Kano John

    Kano John Start 'em young!

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    I was about half way through the OP when I thought man - Mook is all over the place with this post and I'm trying to figure out what he's trying to say. I then went back to the beginning and saw the Transcript of just Matisse talk: !
     
  9. Whyachi

    Whyachi Well-Known Member

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    Billups zone defense is a bust. All opponents need to do is move the ball away from Thybulle, and the Blazers best defender can't do much to help.

    I recently read that Thybulle excelled in a 2-3 zone at the University of Washington. But the NBA won't allow a true 2-3 zone, the paint must be cleared after 3 seconds. Add in the best passers and shooters in the world, the open 3 pointers "Chauncey's Zone" gives up has come back to bite Portland on a number of occasions.
     

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