<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 11 2007, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>every single eligble player who has won an MVP is on the HOF.Duncan has two MVP'sneed I say more?</div>JoJo white won the MVP back in 1975, and hes not a HOF. However you are right, most MVP's do make it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 11 2007, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just because someone changes how a position is played, does not mean that they are the best at it. It just means they are the one to start doing things a certain way. Furthermore, Barkley did alot of those same things that you are saying Malone did to change the position, so that even farther takes away from your point considering someone before Malone was doing all of that same stuff. Tim Duncan is a better player and in my opinion the best power forward of all time over Karl Malone. Minus being a better scorer by a small margin, there is really nothing that Karl Malone does better than Tim Duncan. Duncan has anchored one of the best defenses in NBA history. He is a much better defense player than Malone. He is a better rebounder, he is definately much more fundamental, he is just as good of a passer as Karl Malone he has done more in his career than what Karl Malone has done. Minus being a slightly better scorer, and I'm sure if Duncan had a point guard that fed him some easy points off of running the pick and roll alot like Stockton did, that Duncan's scoring would look even better than it does.</div>let's not get carried away here.Malone was a very good defender. One of the better PF defenders around. He's not as good as Duncan, but let's not pretend it's a wide margin. Malone did his D with is body and quick hands. He didn't block many shots he took it away before the shot.Malone is also a great rebounder. I'd say they're a tie in that category. His career mark is 10.1 lower than Duncan's but factor in his below 10 average (still over 9 though) AFTER he was 34 years old and it affects his average. Duncan is 31 so his rebounding hasn't dipped.Malone career FG and FG %'s are much better too.They made the finals twice, but lost to Jordan and the Bulls. Nobody ever beat the bulls in the finals. I doubt Tim Duncan would have either, Jordan was that great.Duncan doesn't score as much because he had better scorers around him and is very unselfish. Malone played with some teams that were not very talented and had to shoulder more of the scoring burden. I wouldn't begrude Tim's lower scoring average that much.Duncan and Malone are very close in many categories. The titles give Duncan some reasonable arguement for being the best, but wining titles is about the team around you too.I think Malone is still the best PF of all time given the longevity of his career and the consistancy he was able to play at for so long. If Duncan can sustain his level of play another 5-6 years, then I would give it up to him, but not now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jun 11 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>JoJo white won the MVP back in 1975, and hes not a HOF. However you are right, most MVP's do make it.</div>ummm no he didn'thttp://www.databasebasketball.com/awards/mvp.htmhttp://www.insidehoops.com/nba-mvp-history.shtml
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 11 2007, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ummm no he didn'thttp://www.databasebasketball.com/awards/mvp.htmhttp://www.insidehoops.com/nba-mvp-history.shtml</div> I thought you meant Finals MVP, which he did, .
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 11 2007, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>let's not get carried away here.Malone was a very good defender. One of the better PF defenders around. He's not as good as Duncan, but let's not pretend it's a wide margin. Malone did his D with is body and quick hands. He didn't block many shots he took it away before the shot. Malone is also a great rebounder. I'd say they're a tie in that category. His career mark is 10.1 lower than Duncan's but factor in his below 10 average (still over 9 though) AFTER he was 34 years old and it affects his average. Duncan is 31 so his rebounding hasn't dipped.Malone career FG and FG %'s are much better too.They made the finals twice, but lost to Jordan and the Bulls. Nobody ever beat the bulls in the finals. I doubt Tim Duncan would have either, Jordan was that great.Duncan doesn't score as much because he had better scorers around him and is very unselfish. Malone played with some teams that were not very talented and had to shoulder more of the scoring burden. I wouldn't begrude Tim's lower scoring average that much.Duncan and Malone are very close in many categories. The titles give Duncan some reasonable arguement for being the best, but wining titles is about the team around you too.I think Malone is still the best PF of all time given the longevity of his career and the consistancy he was able to play at for so long. If Duncan can sustain his level of play another 5-6 years, then I would give it up to him, but not now.</div>Exactly, a lot of people are quick to say that Malone was an average defender when they know they haven't seen him play besides that year with LAL.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 11 2007, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>let's not get carried away here.Malone was a very good defender. One of the better PF defenders around. He's not as good as Duncan, but let's not pretend it's a wide margin. Malone did his D with is body and quick hands. He didn't block many shots he took it away before the shot.Malone is also a great rebounder. I'd say they're a tie in that category. His career mark is 10.1 lower than Duncan's but factor in his below 10 average (still over 9 though) AFTER he was 34 years old and it affects his average. Duncan is 31 so his rebounding hasn't dipped.Malone career FG and FG %'s are much better too.They made the finals twice, but lost to Jordan and the Bulls. Nobody ever beat the bulls in the finals. I doubt Tim Duncan would have either, Jordan was that great.Duncan doesn't score as much because he had better scorers around him and is very unselfish. Malone played with some teams that were not very talented and had to shoulder more of the scoring burden. I wouldn't begrude Tim's lower scoring average that much.Duncan and Malone are very close in many categories. The titles give Duncan some reasonable arguement for being the best, but wining titles is about the team around you too.I think Malone is still the best PF of all time given the longevity of his career and the consistancy he was able to play at for so long. If Duncan can sustain his level of play another 5-6 years, then I would give it up to him, but not now.</div>As far as defense goes, Duncan is easily one of the best low post defenders of all time. He can play great man to man and force everyone into hard shots, as well as block shots or alter shots. There is a reason why he has been the anchor of one of the best defenses of all time, and why every year he has been there, the Spurs have been one of the best defensive teams in the league. I would say there is a good margin there in between Duncan and Malone for defense. It's not like Malone poked the ball away every game either, maybe once throughout the game he would get a steal, but it wasn't all the time like you are making it out to be. For rebounding, Malone was a good rebounder, but Duncan is a great rebounder. Only once over his career, did Malone average 12 rebounds per game in a season. Duncan through ten years in the league, is averaging 11.9 rebounds, which is only .1 below what Malone was able to do for an entire season. Duncan was a better and more fundamental rebounder than Malone is. They are definately not a tie in that category. They did make the finals twice, but it wasn't like those were the only years they had to make the finals. They had the same team the year after Jordan left the league and didn't make the finals, because they couldn't get past Portland. There was a two year span where the Bulls didn't make the finals, and they couldn't win then. So it wasn't all the Bulls fault that the Jazz could not win the title, it was their fault also.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noballer07 @ Jun 11 2007, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Exactly, a lot of people are quick to say that Malone was an average defender when they know they haven't seen him play besides that year with LAL.</div>And considering I'm 22, I have seen him play alot more than you think, I saw him in the finals and the years after the finals. He wasn't as good of a defensive player as Duncan, either man to man, or as a shot blocker, and that was when he was able to put his hands into the peoples back on defense and stuff. Duncan can't do that anymore, or it's a foul. He is in a time frame, where you are barely able to touch people, and can't play near as physical as what Malone was allowed to, and is still a better defensive player.
Jesus Christ, I know hes pretty much a lock, but I wanted to know what everyone thought. Theres always the few people who disagree with something.You guys didnt need to go all spaztic monkey on me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amare320 @ Jun 11 2007, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ray Allen is a lock for hallf of fame, he isn't winning.. yet. so of course Duncan is HOF.</div>how is he a lock? Basketball-reference puts his HOF probability at 69.8%. Database basketball gives him a 108 hall of fame monitor with 135 being shoe in hall of famer, so I wouldn't say he's a lock quite yet.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Jun 11 2007, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I was talking to Pacers fan, not you, and I said that Bird was a 3 not a 4. I am the one who said Duncan IS the best PF of all-time, so I have no idea why you quoted me and tried to make an argument. Milgod is the one who disagrees.</div>Sorry about that. I was just trying to make the point (agreeing with you) that Duncan can be argued as the best. Whether you include Bird in the mix doesn't matter, but it sounds like nobody was claiming he would be above TD as a power forward anyway.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 11 2007, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And considering I'm 22, I have seen him play alot more than you think, I saw him in the finals and the years after the finals. He wasn't as good of a defensive player as Duncan, either man to man, or as a shot blocker, and that was when he was able to put his hands into the peoples back on defense and stuff. Duncan can't do that anymore, or it's a foul. He is in a time frame, where you are barely able to touch people, and can't play near as physical as what Malone was allowed to, and is still a better defensive player.</div>I agree. Malone wasn't nearly as fundamentally sound as a defender. His defense (not just late in his career, but throughout) consisted of swiping at the ball, trying to get it before the offensive player was able to elevate. That and leaning on the offensive players, he was one of the strongest guys in the league, so it was tough to get to the basket on him. He didn't have anything like the range that Duncan has, though.As far as being the best power forward of all time, though, I think the real winner here is Hakeem, who played out of position at center for much of his career, but not always. He played the 4 when Sampson was there, and at times later in his career, too. Duncan also plays a lot of center, yet he's allowed to be counted here, so why not the Dream? Olajuwon is also a credible choice for best player at any position. He had no real weaknesses.
Look, this seems to have caused a bit of a debate about Duncan v Malone. At the end of the day they are two of the greatest players of all time. The main reason I pick Malone was because he was great for a lot longer. We'll see if Duncan can keep it up, I think he can play for a while yet, but he doesn't play that many minutes and does pick up a few niggly injuries. Look at how many games Malone missed in his career, its amazing how tough the guy was. The guy was averaging 20 points when he was 39!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrBigShot_23 @ Jun 11 2007, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jesus Christ, I know hes pretty much a lock, but I wanted to know what everyone thought. Theres always the few people who disagree with something.You guys didnt need to go all spaztic monkey on me.</div>I don't think anyone was trying to take personal shots on you, but it is pretty unquestionable that Duncan will be in the HOF. Good luck finding someone who disagrees.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Jun 12 2007, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, Malone was better than Bird?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</div>um, what?
