The greatest QB debate is one that will never be able to be settled because there's to many factors to it. One may have all #'s but how much value do you put on a leader making his teamates better. I think that's the thing Brett's been so good at with some of the teams he had. To call Marino the greatest when he couldn't even lift his teamates to a championship level brings up questions for me. On the other hand Montana has all the rings but also got to play with a group of pro bowlers evry year. I'll take the sissy way out and say Elway Favre Marino Montana Unitis Starr and throw in Aikman could all make a solid case. Even Otto Graham and all his championships is right there
^^ I agree, I say that everything that can be said and argued about on the argument of Favre's current skill level (which is what this argument boils down to) has been. Favre will be a HOF'er, that's not even a ?, Who the greatest QB ever will probably never be known. And how he will play this season, we'll have to wait and see.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Who the greatest QB ever will probably never be known.</div> I agree. I know I can't choose. For me growing up, it was a toss up between Montana and Marino. Then Elway came along and finally got his ring(s) at the end of his career. If I was forced to choose, I'd probably have to go with Elway, simply because he repeatedly took the Broncos deep into the playoffs and to the Superbowl with a limited supporting cast. He literally carried the Broncos on his back for years. FIVE Superbowl appearances! That's just amazing... Marino has just about every passing record known to man. Anyone who argues that Marino is the best won't get an objection from me. He's got the numbers to back it up... Montana? Eh... I think a lot of QB's could have won those Superbowls with the supporting cast he had. If Marino was on that team, he'd have four rings. Same for Elway. Same for Favre. No doubt that Montana is a great QB, but I just don't know if I could go as far as "greatest of all time."
I'm not arguing for any single QB, but to be fair you need to look at the cast of players that the QB had to work with. Total championships is a good starting point, but there are another twenty+ players on his side per game. A great QB can throw all the great balls in the world, but someone has to catch them. A great QB can make the handoff, but it takes blocking and a talented ball carrier to make the difference. Taking it back even further, a great QB used to have to call his own game too.
One thing a great QB does though is turn ordinary WR's into looking like great ones. I wonder how good guys like Driver or Freeman would of been playing for an average QB. Probably not look like anything special. The greats can take an average team and make it look like they're the most talented
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Taking it back even further, a great QB used to have to call his own game too.</div> And this, my friend, is why I have such respect for Jim Kelly. Yeah, I know he lost four Superbowls, but he took his team to FOUR Superbowls...IN A ROW! People can bash Jim, but I think he's one of the all time greats... Much respect goes out to John Unitas and Terry Bradshaw and Fran Tarkenton as well...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pack Attack)</div><div class='quotemain'>And Marino left before he was washed up? Check out his stat line from 1999... Dan Marino 204 comp 369 att 55.3 completion % 2448 yards 6.63 ypa 12 TDs 17 Ints 67.4 Rating So Favre last year had a better rating, a higher completion percentage, more completions, more yards, more TDs and the same TD/Interception ratio (59%) as a Dan Marino who supposedly wasn't "washed up?" Sure...</div> '99, if memory serves, was JJ's last year. Marino who was trying to place nice w/ JJ's philosophy. Further. He was post that grusome achilles tendon injury. So, he was not the same. Not to make excuses but Marino had seen better days. How many QB's now would kill for those single season stats? I can think of a few Brian Griese, Ray Lucas, Jay Feidler. Well y'all get the idea. I hope?
Ya know looking at some stats and things like that i have to agree Take Elway One of the games greatest... but his stats are only mediocre.. But he was a Team leader and made the plays that Had to be made
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale)</div><div class='quotemain'>Marino would have gotten killed behind last year's Packers O-line. Really? I'm not so sure about that. Marino had the quickest release in the history of the NFL and he wasn't nearly as cement-footed as people seem to think. Marino was a master of negotiating the pocket. He had excellent footwork which meant he was more economical in the number of steps that he needed to take to avoid the rush and those steps were always made mindfully of proper throwing technique. Let's focus, folks. This isn't just about how good Favre and Marino were at the end of their careers. It's about where the teams they were/are playing on are in the pursuit of a championship. Yes, I remember that Marino's last game was a butt whupping by the Jaguars. However, it wasn't just Marino that was playing flat that day and, like BF1 pointed out, it was in the thick of the playoffs. The reason I think Favre should step down is because I don't see the Pack doing that well this year and I don't see what a wasted year of Favre taking snaps is going to do for the Pack. I believe that Favre's continuing to play is going to slow down the process of replacing him.</div> Building on what Dale said; Marino was nimble for a step or 2, had great pocket awareness, & the quickest release possibly ever. As for the OL, Richmond Webb & Keith Sims were anchors on the left side of the line for years. I said elsewhere in another thread that the difference between Dan & Brett is that Dan still had it emotionally & mentally. He had diminshed physically. Favre is/was the oppsite. His indecisivness on whether he was going to return this season & some of the comments he made toward the end of last season made me question his passion & desire not his physical ability. The difference between the two is that Dan was wise enough not to force things. He tried to trust JJ's system which was his downfall IMO. Well, that and Wanny forcing him out to bring that noodle armed, big-eared goof currently backing up Chris Simms.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearsFan1)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CanadianFavreFan)</div><div class='quotemain'>People think Favre is tarnishing his legacy but does anyone remember Marino's last game. Probably not they just remember the good.</div> Yeah, marino was in 2nd rd of playoffs his last game and lost 62-7 to the jacksonville jaguars. I remember. I am sure beef remembers(if he forgets, i remind him) The key is, IN THE PLAYOFFS! Marino played good his last season, good enough to reach playoffs, despite no running game. Marino didnt have a losing season i believe. He was the best, without a doubt.</div> This was the post I meant to comment on initially but got sidetracked. I thought the whippin J'ville laid on Miami was a wildcard game. Further, I think it was the same yr the Jags shocked the Broncos @ Mile High. During the Marino era, I recall one season of 8-8 and one of 7-9. Otherwise, you could pencil them in for 9 or 10 wins every yr. The disaster that was 2004 (4-12 (Ricky's 1st suspension, hurricanes, Wanny) was the rule rather than the exception.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackadder)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale)</div><div class='quotemain'>Marino would have gotten killed behind last year's Packers O-line. Really? I'm not so sure about that. Marino had the quickest release in the history of the NFL and he wasn't nearly as cement-footed as people seem to think. Marino was a master of negotiating the pocket. He had excellent footwork which meant he was more economical in the number of steps that he needed to take to avoid the rush and those steps were always made mindfully of proper throwing technique. Let's focus, folks. This isn't just about how good Favre and Marino were at the end of their careers. It's about where the teams they were/are playing on are in the pursuit of a championship. Yes, I remember that Marino's last game was a butt whupping by the Jaguars. However, it wasn't just Marino that was playing flat that day and, like BF1 pointed out, it was in the thick of the playoffs. The reason I think Favre should step down is because I don't see the Pack doing that well this year and I don't see what a wasted year of Favre taking snaps is going to do for the Pack. I believe that Favre's continuing to play is going to slow down the process of replacing him.</div> Building on what Dale said; Marino was nimble for a step or 2, had great pocket awareness, & the quickest release possibly ever. As for the OL, Richmond Webb & Keith Sims were anchors on the left side of the line for years. I said elsewhere in another thread that the difference between Dan & Brett is that Dan still had it emotionally & mentally. He had diminshed physically. Favre is/was the oppsite. His indecisivness on whether he was going to return this season & some of the comments he made toward the end of last season made me question his passion & desire not his physical ability. The difference between the two is that Dan was wise enough not to force things. He tried to trust JJ's system which was his downfall IMO. Well, that and Wanny forcing him out to bring that noodle armed, big-eared goof currently backing up Chris Simms.</div> I will agree with that. I have to admit that the fire is what help make Brett great. I got a little scared last year when he told Troy Aikman he didn't know if he even wanted to be the guy with the ball in the last 2 minutes. Not exactly what you want to hear from your starter but I also think Brett has gone threw alot of indesicion that he feels different every day. Looks now at least that he's exicted to go but hopefully it holds up for the season
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I said elsewhere in another thread that the difference between Dan & Brett is that Dan still had it emotionally & mentally. He had diminshed physically. Favre is/was the oppsite. His indecisivness on whether he was going to return this season & some of the comments he made toward the end of last season made me question his passion & desire not his physical ability.</div> This could very well be...the INDISPUTABLE truth! That is to say, I agree...
Back to the thread topic. All I know is for the lsat decade I got to watch one of the all time greats and I'm gonna enjoy one last year before we'll never get to watch him again. What's one more year for Aaron to wait. In fact it may do him good and who even knows if he's the answer. I hope he is just as great but I have no problem waiting a year to find out.
Favre has passion, the problem is he is used to winning, and took all the blame when they didn't. They lost so many close games last year, games they would normally win. Favre was used to getting the ball with less then 2 minutes and driving the ball down the field for the game winning TD. Last year he would get the ball when they were trailing and end up throwing the game losing INT. Having a year like the year Favre had after having as many winning seasons like he did would make anybody question themselves. The question is, whether Favres bad season was a result of all the injuries on the team or his diminishing skill. IMO it was mainly a result of injury, and partially a result of Favres mindset (which IMO isn't exactly a bad thing). Favres mindset IMO, is that he might as well give his receivers a chance to win the game. Most of his INT's were passes that the receiver had a chance to make the play but didn't, not neccesarily b/c they didn't try hard enough, but b/c they were outplayed. So should he of held back and only went for passes that he knew his receivers could make? Most likely they still would have lost as many games, but his stats would of been better. IMO he should always try and give his team a chance to win.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pack Attack)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I said elsewhere in another thread that the difference between Dan & Brett is that Dan still had it emotionally & mentally. He had diminshed physically. Favre is/was the oppsite. His indecisivness on whether he was going to return this season & some of the comments he made toward the end of last season made me question his passion & desire not his physical ability.</div> This could very well be...the INDISPUTABLE truth! That is to say, I agree...</div> I'll 2nd that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (porky88)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pack Attack)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I said elsewhere in another thread that the difference between Dan & Brett is that Dan still had it emotionally & mentally. He had diminshed physically. Favre is/was the oppsite. His indecisivness on whether he was going to return this season & some of the comments he made toward the end of last season made me question his passion & desire not his physical ability.</div> This could very well be...the INDISPUTABLE truth! That is to say, I agree...</div> I'll 2nd that.</div> I wont. farve's only skill was making deal or cheating. Maybe he jsut doesnt have connections anymore.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearsFan1)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (porky88)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pack Attack)</div><div class='quotemain'> This could very well be...the INDISPUTABLE truth! That is to say, I agree...</div> I'll 2nd that.</div> I wont. farve's only skill was making deal or cheating. Maybe he jsut doesnt have connections anymore.</div> Allow me to point out the obvious. If Brett wasn't the NFL's equivalent Of Monty Hall/Howie Mandel, BF1 would be SOL.
