<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 25 2006, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>2pt FG's also counts layups. T-Mac is the far better shooter. He doesn't have the driving ability of Bron, so he doesn't get wide open 3's Bron gets. T-Mac consistently has to take horrificly difficult fadeaway 3's (makes them, too). I am not saying anything about next season, as T-Mac has Yao on his team, who demands the ball to get his points, most of which on post up moves. Bron has to deal with Z, where Z gets his points off of amazing bron passes. But I will say this: When T-Mac was in a situation like the one Bron is in with the Cavs, he was the best scorer in the league. Right now Kobe is the best scorer in the league, and because AI and Bron get more PPG due to them being on fairly average teams with no player to defer to doesn't mean they are better scorers than Mac.</div>I did three point field goals if you didnt notice and T-mac was only 2% better over his career which in my eyes isnt "far better". And you say that Lebron is a better driver so he gets better open looks, right? Well dont you think having a player like Yao in the post will clear up open threes for Tracy as well? Thats right, it does.And when Tracy was in the situation like Bron was, his team had the worst record in the NBA. So that isnt a very good comparison for your side. Tracy had Yao, and that was it. He can still get his points. Kobe still got his points when he had the most dominant player in the league on his side....Honestly, using the excuse that Yao Ming is the reason Tracy doesnt get as much points is an awful arguement. Having Yao helps Tracy get better looks.
Once again, that is decieving as Bron gets open looks at 3's. T-Mac is often shooting 3's over double teams.No, it really doesn't. T-Mac still gets doubled. Yao is efficient, and usually isn't double teamed in post. That is why usually when T-Mac gets into paint he just dumps it off in paint (watch 2005 playoffs, Yao dropped almost every drop off to him, which is one of the reasons we lost the series). Yao is not a lurker, and doesn't score much outside of 5-10ft. His only way of scoring is posting up. Unlike an all star shooter or big man that can stretch D, Yao doesn't take much pressure off of T-Mac.Don't compare that last season to Bron's situations. In Bron's first year he had Ricky part of the year, Z and Boozer. No playoffs. Next year he still had Z and Gooden. No playoffs. Next year he had Hughes half the year, Z, Gooden, Marshall, Snow, etc... T-Mac's best season (32PPG, 6RPG, 5APG, 46% shooting, scoring title) he had Mike Miller, but he was traded for Gooden halfway through the year. That is why the Magic didn't finish off the Pistons in 1st round (pushed them to 7 games, though, despite T-Mac having no one outside Gooden, with possible exception being Darrel Arsmotrong, who only averaged 9PPG that season).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 25 2006, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, that is decieving as Bron gets open looks at 3's. T-Mac is often shooting 3's over double teams.No, it really doesn't. T-Mac still gets doubled. Yao is efficient, and usually isn't double teamed in post. That is why usually when T-Mac gets into paint he just dumps it off in paint (watch 2005 playoffs, Yao dropped almost every drop off to him, which is one of the reasons we lost the series). Yao is not a lurker, and doesn't score much outside of 5-10ft. His only way of scoring is posting up. Unlike an all star shooter or big man that can stretch D, Yao doesn't take much pressure off of T-Mac.Don't compare that last season to Bron's situations. In Bron's first year he had Ricky part of the year, Z and Boozer. No playoffs. Next year he still had Z and Gooden. No playoffs. Next year he had Hughes half the year, Z, Gooden, Marshall, Snow, etc... T-Mac's best season (32PPG, 6RPG, 5APG, 46% shooting, scoring title) he had Mike Miller, but he was traded for Gooden halfway through the year. That is why the Magic didn't finish off the Pistons in 1st round (pushed them to 7 games, though, despite T-Mac having no one outside Gooden, with possible exception being Darrel Arsmotrong, who only averaged 9PPG that season).</div>So what you are telling me is that Tracy gets doubled more than Lebron AND Yao doesnt get double teamed? I have no earthly idea how you would come up with this. That is god awful. Considering Yao posts up inside 10 feet, that would take more pressure off of T-Mac from the outside considering the backside man would be sagging down to help on Yao(which they do), or even Tracys man would be helping if they were on the same side. This season, if they are both healthy, you will know EXACTLEY what i am talking about. Lebron was also a rookie and you cant carry your team when you are a rookie. Go look at what Tracy did in his rookie season. He was coming off of the bench. Lebron is still alot younger and when he is Tracys age, he will be twice as good as a scorer as Tracy instead of just being a little bit better of a scorer.
I watch every televised Rockets game, and read tons of articles about the team. Inside 15ft, they are equally doubled, but on the perimeter, T-Mac gets doubled while Bron doesn't. Yao gets doubled when he gets the ball, but the pressure still isn't taken away from T-Mac. That is why most of the Rockets team is shooters, to counter that defensive mindset.Bron was the star player from the start, and had to carry the team, T-Mac was forced to play behind Vince his first few seasons. To me, his rookie season was his first year with the Magic, where he won most improved and was named to all-NBA first team (27PPG, 8RPG, 5 APG, 46% shooting).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 25 2006, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I watch every televised Rockets game, and read tons of articles about the team. Inside 15ft, they are equally doubled, but on the perimeter, T-Mac gets doubled while Bron doesn't. Yao gets doubled when he gets the ball, but the pressure still isn't taken away from T-Mac. That is why most of the Rockets team is shooters, to counter that defensive mindset.Bron was the star player from the start, and had to carry the team, T-Mac was forced to play behind Vince his first few seasons. To me, his rookie season was his first year with the Magic, where he won most improved and was named to all-NBA first team (27PPG, 8RPG, 5 APG, 46% shooting).</div>That is not true at all. Neither player gets doubled more than the other past 15 feet. Because it never really happens at all. You rarley will ever see 2 guys on one at the 3 point line unless people are rotating and they get mixed up, or because of confusion. It justs doesnt happen. I believe everything that you are saying about double teaming is wrong and u are just making this up to make your point. Why would Tracy get doubled and Bron not? It just doesnt make sense at all.And how can you say that T-Mac's first REAL year was in Orlando? If he was as good as Lebron his rookie season, he WOULD have started in Toronto at a different position. He just wasnt as skilled coming out of Mt. Zion Academy as Lebron was coming out of high school. So, your "excuse" that you used cant be used. Its not a fair comparison then.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ballerman2112 @ Jul 25 2006, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That is not true at all. Neither player gets doubled more than the other past 15 feet. Because it never really happens at all. You rarley will ever see 2 guys on one at the 3 point line unless people are rotating and they get mixed up, or because of confusion. It justs doesnt happen. I believe everything that you are saying about double teaming is wrong and u are just making this up to make your point. Why would Tracy get doubled and Bron not? It just doesnt make sense at all.And how can you say that T-Mac's first REAL year was in Orlando? If he was as good as Lebron his rookie season, he WOULD have started in Toronto at a different position. He just wasnt as skilled coming out of Mt. Zion Academy as Lebron was coming out of high school. So, your "excuse" that you used cant be used. Its not a fair comparison then.</div>For the same reason Bron gets covered tighter than Wade outside of 15-18ft....outside shooting! T-Mac doesn't get doubled 30ft out, but T-Mac's scoring relies on shooting from 18ft and beyond, while Bron's game is cenered around his driving ability. And when you get a good help defensive team with good interior defender, driving players become far less effective. See: LeBron against Pistons in 2nd round of playoffs. T-Mac is a great driving player, and a fantastic shooter, which is why he is the more versatile and dangerous scorer (when healthy). Bron is a GOOD shooter, but nothing special, and nowhere near T-Mac's level.No, he wasn't as skilled in HS as Bron was, thus Bron got more hype, which made him #1 pick, which put him in starting lineup right away. T-Mac had to play behind VC his whole Toronto career, and it isn't a wonder why he went from 15PPG to 27PPG after his jump to Orlando. It's not fair to compare them as rookies as LeBron was deemed the man before he ever stepped foot in the NBA, while T-Mac was drafted so low as it was before people knew how good HS players going to the NBA could be.I'm done with this arguement, as neither of us can really be right, it is a matter of what kind fo scorer you think is the "better" one. I personally prefer the more versatile scorer that can light you up for more point, even though the FG % might be lower.
The only thing I am going to argue with you about anymore is the fact that about T-Mac starting his career behind Vince and Lebron starting right away. All the things that you are saying are IRRELEVANT! If you are good enough to start for an NBA team your rookie season, then you will start. It has nothing to do with "hype" or him already been given the spot before he started. Lebron got that so called "hype" because he earned it because he was and is a better player. It has nothing to do with hype. Tracy would have gotten more hype if he was as skilled as Lebron coming out of high school. Straight up.Yes, I think Lebron is a better scorer because he can get to the basket better and his jumpshot is still good and you just think Tracy is a better shooter so you give him the edge. Whatever you look for works...so that part of the arguement ends there.
Tracy didn't fully develop until he was in the NBA, but he was damn skilled. So you think honestly think Tyson Chandler and Kwame Brown were good enough to start right out of HS? Where did that get them...aveerage-ness. It's almost impossible to tell how good a player will be when you draft him out of HS. Bron was the one exception, although no one really expected him to be so good so soon. Evidently Raptors didn't think T-Mac wouldn't amount to much or they wouldn't have gotten VC the next year. No, he wasn't as good as Bron out of HS, but it's unfair as he was benched his first year, then played behind VC for 2-3 years. He didn't get a chance to get the kind of stats Bron had a chance to get in his rookie season until he went to Orlando.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 25 2006, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It means that scoring was down that year (along with last year). With new rules in place, it is getting easier and easier to score. And Bron isn't anywhere near T-Mac when it comes to shooting. Not even close. T-Mac might not be quite as efficient (same with Kobe, who is also a better scorer), but he can scor ein many more ways. The efficiency is down because most of Bron's shots come off driving. And that is fine, except when he plays a team like the Pistons that shut his driving down. He averaged like 26PPG on 44% shooting against them. That is where T-Mac's versatility becomes a factor. He is the FAR better shooter (his % is down because most of his shots are jumpshots rather than driving to basket, along with sometimes taking the occasional 30ft fadeaway), and he is also a good driver. I am not arguing Bron being the better player, just scorer. And APG have nothing to do with you being more selfish, that is more of a sign of being a better playmaker.</div>are you kidding? The rules haven't changed at all since TMac won those scoring titles. And to say that someone plays bad against Detroit is irrelevant. No one playss too well against them. McGrady isn't a FAR better anything. He has better range, but it's not FAR.
Wade didn't play bad against them. Why? Because he was able to stretch out D with his 15-18ft jump shot (not to mention his driving ability is flat out unstoppable). I was using Detroit's defense to show that when Bron's driving is slowed down, he has a very tough time scoring. T-Mac doesn't have this problem, as most of his points come off jump shots anyway. And when he is getting agressively played, he can drive it very well.And he is a much better shooter from around the floor, period. Bron is the much better driver, but T-Mac is better shooter.
if you use LeBron's driving against him, you have to use TMac's dependance on jumpshooting against him. His scoring will be inconcsistent, as his jumper isn't always falling. And 26 ppg isn't "bad". That's two ppg less than Tracy when he won the scoring title shich you are praising him over. And he's doing this against arguably the best D in the league. He was slowed down, but everyone is slowed down by detroit. You can't say that Dwyane played as well as he normally does. And Detroit also had Shaq to worry about, as well as a few other scoring threats.And i can't believe you just said that WADE stretched Detroit's defense. He has a decent midrange, but that won't stretch the defense. LeBron has a better midrange/outside shot than him anyways.
Umm, Wade played BETTER than he normally does. He was 70% from the floor. And they didn't double Shaq. Most of the defense was focused on wade, not Shaq, just like it was against LA back in 2004.And yes, T-Mac sometimes does shoot too much. But he is the much better shooter, and while his driving isn't as good, he can take it the the hole better than LeBron can shoot a contested 18ft+ jumpshot. I prefer the scorer who, while streakier, is more versatile and dangerous and can get hotter at any single moment (13 in 30, 62 point game, 30pts in a half, etc..). Bron is a fantastic scorer, and can totally rip aparat a defense that isn't good with the help and doesn't have an inside presence (Washington), but because his shot still isn't as good as it needs to be, a good help defense that can rough him up in the paint can really slow him down.
Wade just went off. He couldn't do that consistently vs. anyone, especially not detroit.Why in the hell would you want a streakier scorer? you're just being a homer. If it were LeBroin that had the better outside shot, you'd say that you'd rather have the steadier scorer. And you're acting like LeBron cna't shoot from the outside,whcih he can. He can go off too. He's had his share of 50 point games. And i'd much rather have my franchise player be consistent and reliable. think about it, REALLY think about it, do you want your star player, which your team depends on, to just not show up at all some nights? I wouldn't want that at all. Especially since LeBron is getting the job done every night, and he's getting better numbers than McGrady. He might score 30, then 34, while TMac will score 35, then 23. He's being more consistent AT A HIGHER LEVEL in the first place. And TMac has also had alot longer of a time frame to get a 62 point game, etc.
He did it last year in playoffs, and di it this year when he scored thae last 17pts and got GW shot.I also pick Kobe over Bron when it comes to scoring. I just prefer that type of scorer. Yes, they are less efficient, but both are more dangerous and more versatile. LeBron has a decent jumper, but Kobe and T-Mac are deadly. Because they don't have the large frame Bron has, they can't drive as well, so they get much more attention on perimeter than Bron does. That is where the streakiness comes from. But both of them always come up with great games when it comes to scoring (when healthy). Both are around 45% shooters when healthy. That is more than enough for me to call them better scorers.
stop bringing up other players. you're just distracting from the main point. You make the point that TMac can occasionally blow up, well, SO CAN LEBRON! He's had a few 50 point games, a few killer triple-doubles. you're not proving anything.
Stop fu*king bringing up triple doubles! I am NOT arguing LeBron is a better overall player!!! But in terms of scoring, T-Mac is my pick. More versatile, more dangerous, and is great at both shooting and driving. LeBron is great at driving, but only a good shooter at best. And you're just bi*ching about wade because you know what he does against the Pistons perfectly showcases my arguement. He can drive AND hit the midrange jumpshot at will. Most of his shots in that series was JUMPSHOTS! In the Pistons series, LeBron was forced to shoot tough jumpers....what happenned? He was 27% from 3, 44% from field, his APG and PPG dropped, and because he tried to force driving to the basket he had 4.5 TO's per game. That shows a flaw in LeBron's near perfect offensive arsenal. Fix the jumpshot and he is easily the best scorer in the league. Until then, Kobe, Wade and T-Mac are better pure scorers.
How am i bitching about Wade?and i brought up triple-doubles to prve that he can blow up some times. You keep saying more dangerous, but that is not as important as consistency. LeBron is just as dangerous. He's had his share of 50 point games. LeBron is dangerous AND consistent. You're just being a homer.
You're saying don't bring up other players, but it goes perfectly with my arguement.Triple doubles don't show anything about scoring. Kidd gets triple doubles more than anyone else in the leageu and he's not a great scorer by any means. Bron is dangerous as a scorer, but not like T-Mac. Like Kobe, T-Mac can blow up from 3 like no other, and he just becomes unstoppable. In his 62 point game, he went 0-7 in the last quarter. That means he had around 60 in 3 quarters. That is the kind of blowing up I mean. Same with the 13 in 30 seconds. He is more versatile, and because of that, more dangerous. His versatility makes him unstoppable against almost any defense, while LeBron struggles heavily against teams that force him to take jumpers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 26 2006, 05:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're saying don't bring up other players, but it goes perfectly with my arguement.Triple doubles don't show anything about scoring. Kidd gets triple doubles more than anyone else in the leageu and he's not a great scorer by any means. Bron is dangerous as a scorer, but not like T-Mac. Like Kobe, T-Mac can blow up from 3 like no other, and he just becomes unstoppable. In his 62 point game, he went 0-7 in the last quarter. That means he had around 60 in 3 quarters. That is the kind of blowing up I mean. Same with the 13 in 30 seconds. He is more versatile, and because of that, more dangerous. His versatility makes him unstoppable against almost any defense, while LeBron struggles heavily against teams that force him to take jumpers.</div>Are you retarded? I SAID that i was bringing the triple-doubles up to prove that he can blow up. I never said anything about it being about scoring. LeBron scored 26 ppg, and you call that sturrgling heavily? Oh please. LeBron has a much more consistent attack, and that's more important than occasionally blowing up.You talk about TMac's 62 point game, LeBron had a 56 point game. That's only 6 points lower, and he can consistently score over 30 points. So TMac is not more dangerous. He can shoot from the outside, but like i've said a million times, and you probably won't ever listen to, lebron gets the job done every night at a HIGHER LEVEL.
