To let them play, or not to let them play...

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Mediocre Man, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Mediocre Man

    Mediocre Man Mr. SportsTwo

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    31,971
    Likes Received:
    7,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is the question.

    Last nights game with Chicago and Boston ended in a controversial call. Marcus Smart hit Jimmy Butler on the elbow with less than a second to play. There are two lines of thinking. Should it have been called, or not, and why.

    I am firmly in the "if it's a foul on the first shot of the game, it's a foul on the last shot of the game."

    I hate the "let the players decide" mantra.
     
  2. selloutking

    selloutking BALL DON'T LIE!

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2015
    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Redmond, OR
    if its a foul its a foul
    the fact that the refs can change how they are calling a game depending on how much time there is, is ridiculous.
    maybe one day we will have some form of super computer robot thing making calls with a 99.999999998% correct call rate, and look back at these times and think, wow this is how we officiated games!?
     
    Dougnsalem, Nate, blue9 and 1 other person like this.
  3. Rhal

    Rhal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2009
    Messages:
    11,942
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    UPS
    Location:
    Portland
    If it was a low bump or something that didn't really effect the shot, sure let it go but Smart clearly effects Butlers last second shot, thats a foul at anypoint in the game so hell yea its a foul at the end of the game.
     
    PtldPlatypus likes this.
  4. julius

    julius Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    24,657
    Likes Received:
    4,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    singer songwriter
    Location:
    Washington
    A foul is a foul, no matter the time or the player.
     
  5. Reep

    Reep Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,788
    Likes Received:
    1,434
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    Agreed that a foul should be a foul, but also that refs should see if any foul actually impacted the play.
     
  6. Fonzthecpt1

    Fonzthecpt1 I'm Listening

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    13,880
    Likes Received:
    8,797
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why not allow the refs the ability to review in late game situations. That way if they call it and there was not enough contact to warrant a foul they could overturn.

    Regardless I agree, doesn't matter when it occurs if you are going to call it in the first minute you have to call it in the last.
     
    RipCityDSCPL and HailBlazers like this.
  7. BBert

    BBert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    18,789
    Likes Received:
    8,307
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Selfless Public Servant
    Location:
    South Blazerlandia
    The "let the players decide" bullshit is bullshit. If it's a foul, and the ref doesn't call it because the game is on the line, then THE REF DECIDED THE OUTCOME, not the players.

    Call the fucking foul you spineless pieces of shit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  8. Mediocre Man

    Mediocre Man Mr. SportsTwo

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    31,971
    Likes Received:
    7,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Exactly
     
  9. HailBlazers

    HailBlazers Ride the REmerge

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2008
    Messages:
    10,805
    Likes Received:
    3,307
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    PDX
    They need an additional ref at a monitor on the floor.
     
  10. Trackjack

    Trackjack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2015
    Messages:
    2,261
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yea if he foul him call it doesn't matter what part of the game there in. But NBA official get away with it because there no accountability on them in this league. This last 2 minute shit they do when they review the referee calls is pretty much bull shit because it doesn't change the outcome when everyone leave. It surely haven't help the refs get better neither if they are use it as tool to make refs better.
     
    Dougnsalem likes this.
  11. rasheedfan2005

    rasheedfan2005 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2013
    Messages:
    7,531
    Likes Received:
    3,860
    Trophy Points:
    113
    thats why esports are better than actual sports now. everything is programmed and computers are provided by the league. literally no way to cheat.
     
    Dougnsalem likes this.
  12. Nate

    Nate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    1,295
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Celtics are dumb as fuck. They were talking hella shit about the refs after the game. He clearly hit butler on the elbow. Idiots.
     
  13. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    12,713
    Likes Received:
    3,401
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I agree with what you are all saying. Call it the same the whole game.

    The only thing I would add is that there are many fouls throughout a game that could be called but aren't because then the games would last 3 hours. So IMO if the foul at the end of the game affects the outcome... you have to call it. But if it is away from the ball and is not a factor in the play.......then "you let the players decide the game".

    Same with Football. Don't call offensive holding after the RB is already through the hole and is 15 years down the field. Sure it is still holding but again technically you could call holding on almost every play if they wanted to.
     
    BBert likes this.
  14. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey "Bug Man flies in for the verbal DUNK IN YO FACE!"

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Messages:
    8,389
    Likes Received:
    5,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Logistical Engineer
    Location:
    Portland
    Its a foul. All The Way elbow is the worst part to be touched and try to maintain a good shot.
    Im with ya MM
     
  15. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Fan Fest MVP!!!

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    14,380
    Likes Received:
    11,919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Executive Summary: It was the correct call, and people are still bitching about it.

    Reading through the comments in this thread it appears that many posters have not watched the video of the play in question or even understand why there is a controversy. All the comments about how a foul is a foul and the refs should call the game the same way in the last minute as the first minute, are not applicable in this situation. Because, that's exactly what they did.

    The reason there is a controversy is because, in this case, the refs did not swallow their whistle and refrain from calling a foul with the game on the line. They actually called a foul a foul, even with the game on the line and less than 1 second on the clock. Rather than bitching about the refs, you should be singing their praises.

    All the "controversy" is coming out of Boston. They are bitching that while, technically it was a foul, it should not have been called in that situation. Because the call went against them, they are pissed that the ref did NOT swallow his whistle and let the foul go uncalled. Fans hate "situational officiating", but only when it works against their team (or in this case, didn't work FOR their team).

    I have watched this call from several angles, in slow motion, and while there was clearly contact between Smart's hand (fingers, actually) and Butler's elbow while he was shooting the ball, it was NOT a glaringly obvious foul. It would have been an easy out for the ref to swallow his whistle, but he actually made the correct call and people are bitching about it.

    As far as accountability, you better believe it's there. Ever since the Donaghy controversy, NBA officials have been the most highly scrutinized in the world. How many of you have read the Pedowitz Report? Right, that's what I thought. Well, I'll save you some time so you don't have to read all 133 pages. To learn more about how the refs are graded, start reading at the bottom of page 48 through the section on Referee Self-Assessment that ends on page 52. And, keep in mind, those were the grading and assessment procedures that were in place BEFORE the Donaghy scandal.

    Every call and non-call of EVERY game is recorded, graded as correct and incorrect and linked to video footage of the play by court-side observers. Every play is then reviewed after the games and the 10-20 most critical/pertinent calls/non-calls are sent to the refs, along with the linked video footage after every game. After they return to their hotels the refs have to review these plays, grade their own performance and submit a game report to the league office. In addition to these individual game reports, about 8 times a month, each ref has to do a "deep dive" where they go back and self-assess every call and non-call for an entire game.

    All these reports, both the ones entered by the court-side observers and the referee game reports and deep dive self-assessment reports, are reviewed by the league office. All this data is fed into a system that grades referee performance. And, this is where the accountability comes in. If you are rated near the bottom of the pack, you lose your job. Unlike NBA players, referees do not have guaranteed contracts. Keeping your job from one season to the next is directly related to the quality of your work. That is the ultimate form of accountability - consistently make the right calls or lose your job.

    And again, this report came out in 2008 and detailed the referee assessment procedures in place before the Donaghy scandal. Even stricter procedures are in place now, and advances in technology makes it possible to further scrutinize the "correctness" of every call and non-call of every NBA game.

    The system also rewards the best officials with playoff assignments and the ultimate responsibility of working the NBA finals. Just to be eligible to work the playoffs, you need to have 7 years experience as an NBA official. To work the finals, you need 14 years of experience - and you need to be the best of the best, in terms of your game performance . Think about that. It's harder to become an NBA official than an NBA player (about 65 referee jobs compared to about 450 player positions), and harder still to make the finals as an official than as a player - you need 14 years of NBA experience to even be considered for a finals assignment.

    Are the NBA refs perfect? Hell no, they are human and have to make split-second decisions in real time of an incredibly fast paced contest between the most amazing athletes on the planet. It would be impossible to call a perfect game, but when we as fans, have the benefit of slow motion replay from multiple camera angles, it's actually amazing what a high percentage of calls the officials get right. And, even when they do make the correct call (like the call against Smart), they still get beat up about it. They can make 100 correct calls in a row, and if they botch the 101st call, they care crooked bums that are out to get your favorite player/team.

    There's a lot more that goes into being an NBA referee than just calling the games. There are official meetings between the crew before the game, the post game self-assessments, the regular deep dive self-assessments, they are tested weekly on their knowledge of the rules, etc. Their travel schedule is nothing like the players. They have no home games. Every game is a road game. Even when they work the playoffs, they never call two games in a row in the same city. The NBA publishes the game schedule a couple months before the season starts. There is no such schedule published for referee assignments. The officiating crew for each game is not announced until the day of the game. The individual refs don't even know their next assignment until they receive their plane tickets and hotel reservations, less than 24 hours in advance. They do get days off between games, but rarely have enough time to return home and visit their families during the course of the season. It's not a lifestyle many would chose and a profession few are good at.

    BNM
     
    BBert and Orion Bailey like this.
  16. honkicracker

    honkicracker Writing Team

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,354
    Likes Received:
    2,579
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The thing that makes me laugh is Smart after the game said. "I guess I got punished for playing good defense".
    To me that's saying, "I didn't foul him".
    Except you did foul him, it was easily seen in real time. It's even more apparent when you look at it in slow motion.
    Ref made the correct call.
     
  17. Boob-No-More

    Boob-No-More Fan Fest MVP!!!

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    14,380
    Likes Received:
    11,919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Right. Playing good defense isn't against the rules. Hitting a shooter on the elbow is. Does anyone in BOS not understand this distinction?

    BNM
     
    Orion Bailey and honkicracker like this.
  18. BBert

    BBert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    18,789
    Likes Received:
    8,307
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Selfless Public Servant
    Location:
    South Blazerlandia
    I did not see the play in question nor do I need to. I was answering the philosophical question posed by Mediocre Man, not responding to the play in question.

    I think it's great the refs called it, if it was in fact a foul. It seems to me that the controversy that is ensuing is at least partly the result of past practice, and the often repeated refrain that the refs should swallow their whistle and let players foul the fuck out of each other at the end of close games, because "the players should decide the outcome" not the refs. As I stated, I do not agree with this. I will concede that the refs should be extra cautious and be damn sure it really was a foul before they call one in that situation. No one wants the game decided by a bad call. And by the same token, I don't want the game decided by a bad "no-call" either. I can forgive the stuff that could go either way, or was difficult to determine in the heat of the moment. I do expect the refs to be human.

    :cheers:
     
    Strenuus likes this.
  19. Strenuus

    Strenuus Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    30,615
    Likes Received:
    10,109
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is no controversy.

    If it's a foul, it's a foul. Why are people thinking it's a controversy when it's done right?

    Thought so.
     
  20. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey "Bug Man flies in for the verbal DUNK IN YO FACE!"

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Messages:
    8,389
    Likes Received:
    5,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Logistical Engineer
    Location:
    Portland
    This whole thing is a joke and can somewhat undermine any type of fan led movement towards better officiating.

    You think the refs union are going to give a shit about what the fans think when we are planting a position of such double standards?
    Their only thought will be that we are impossible to please and they will go into more closed door rooms and do their own thing without thought or care of public perception. And they would be right in doing so.

    An apple is an apple, not an orange. Contact is contact. Period. Boston just took a knock on the respect meter with me for bitching so much and making this a big deal just because they are on the wrong end.
    Would they be bitching if the roles were reversed?
    That's all anyone need ask....
     

Share This Page