Too 5 NBA Players All Time= Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, and Duncan

Just how much better was Tim Duncan than David Robinson?

 

If you measure titles; a lot better... But I was a huge admiral fan. He was the most agile big man I saw in person.

 

Magic
Jordan
LeBron
Russell
Kareem

Easy. Hardest omission for me is the Big O or Duncan.

 

Quadruple double. Very good player.

 

The years should be connected by straight lines. The talent and effort gaps are amusingly-placed.

If you move the red line left so they start together, both lines' ups and downs agree a lot.

In Jabbar's missing 2 years on the left, his college years, he learned great defense. This caused his line to extend far to the right. In other words, great defense is why the NBA wanted Jabbar even when his PER fell. Shaq wasn't a great defender, so when his PER fell he was out.

 

eating

STOMP

 

Wow. Just wow. Wilt and Jabbar/Alcindor were the two best centers to ever play basketball. In a class by themselves. Hakeem and Walton were next tier, and Walton only for a year and half, so he's basically disqualified. Both the Admiral and Duncan (if he'd been listed as a center) also were better than Shaq. And yes, so was Bill Russell. Shaq was a giant who be shear force and NBA favoritism was able to dominate (I agree with Sinobas: It is unprecedented the way Shaq got away with offensive fouls and travelling for most of his career). Shaq was not the basketball player those other guys were.

 

Yes, but at the end of the day, he's still Greg Ostertag, Big White Stiff personified. The fact that you can make a credible case that a guy with career averages of 4.6 ppg and 5.5 rpg was legitimately a top 5 center in the league during the prime of Shaq's career is more convincing than any argument I can muster.

I'm sure if Greg Ostertag ever googles himself, he'll be delighted to know that he'll go down in the annals if internet basketball lore as one of Shaq's toughest match-ups and biggest rivals. Never mind Wilt/Russell, Shaq/Ostertag was a rivalry for the ages.

BNM

 

Dave Cowens = Hall of Fame
Jerry Lucas = Hall of Fame
Bob Rule
Elmore Smith = blocked 393 shots in 73-74, third highest single season total in league history
Wes Unseld = Hall of Fame
Walt Bellamy = Hall of Fame
Sam Lacey
Walt Wesley
Tom Boerwinkle
Neal Walk
Bob Lanier = Hall of Fame
35 year old Wilt = Hall of Fame, led the league in rebounding and FG%
Nate Thurmond = Hall of Fame
Zaid Abdul-Aziz
Elvin Hayes = Hall of Fame
Dale Schlueter

Simple: Abdul-Azis was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a top 5 center during Kareem's prime. There were only 17 teams in the league in 71-72, the year Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg. You just named 8 Hall of Famers from that season, plus guys like Elmore Smith and Tom Boerwinkle were better players than Ostertag. Half the guys Kareem faced that season were future Hall of Famers.

In another post, you made a strong case that Greg Ostertag was a top 5 center during the prime of Shaq's career. Is Greg Ostertag in the Hall of Fame? Hell no. Of the guys Shaq played against in his prime, 2 or 3 might make it into the Hall of Fame - and there were 29 teams in the league at that time. So, 50% of Kareem's opponents, during his prime, were future Hall of Famers. During Shaq's prime, roughly 10% of his opponents were future Hall of Famers.

Now do you understand how Shaq was able to pad his stats against inferior opponents when the league talent pool was diluted by expansion and a lack of quality big men?

BNM

 

Here's the guys you listed as the best centers in the league during Shaq's best year (1999-2000):

Clearly Robinson, Mourning, Mutombo were better than Ostertag, as was Vlade. That leaves Ostertag as arguably Shaq's 5th toughest opponent. And, it only got worse from there. Robinson was on the verge of retirement and Zo's career was cut short due to kidney disease. For the rest of Shaq's prime, Mutombo, 6'8" Ben Wallace, and occasionally Yao Ming on the rare occasions when he was healthy, were Shaq's toughest opponents. By then, the league had expanded to 30 teams and at most 10% of those teams had future Hall of Famers playing center for them.

No, I didn't ignore it. And no, Abdul-Azis was nowhere near a top 5 center during Kareem's prime. There were Kareem, plus 8 other Hall of Famers ahead of him, plus guys like Elmore Smith and Tom Boerwinkle were also clearly better. At absolute best, Abdul-Azisi was 11th best (and that's a big stretch) of the 16 (bottom 30%) centers Kareem played against during his best season, while a stiff like Greg Ostertag was in the top 20% of the centers Shaq played against in his prime.

BNM

 

Other than Robinson, Morning and Mutombo, all those guys were retired by the time Shaq entered his prime - and Robinson and Mourning were almost there.

You were the one that listed Ostertag as one of Shaq's toughest opponents during his prime.

Not sure what was freaky about Duckworth, he as a spot up shooting big man. Yeah Bradley and Bol were taller than Shaq, but he also outweighed them by about 100 pounds. They were novelty acts, not future Hall of Famers.

I never scoffed at Mutombo. Along with late career Robinson and Mourning, he was the 3rd center form your list that has a shot at making the Hall of Fame. LaFrentz, Ostertag, Campbell - no way. Vlade, maybe but it will be due to his international career as much as his NBA career.

BNM

 

Sabonis wasn't a slouch during Shaq's prime either.

 

You get upset at people for using strawman arguments, yet you keep trying to change little things about what they said.

 

Marketing?

 

Why do you assume I'm upset? I'm not. It's entirely possible to disagree without being upset.

Denny and I disagree in our opinions on Shaq's level of greatness. No biggie.

BNM