I won't put lebron above kobe because he doesn't play defense. If lebron can show me he can play some defense, i will happily accept his the best. I value defense as everyone knows and that is how i came to my conclusion.Also, for some reason i see Tmac challenging lebron and kobe for supremacy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ May 6 2006, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If tmac is back to his finest, i might put him number 2 maybe even 1.</div>Yeah i hope he does too, but its not his fault for being this bad. JVG has to be the worst coach ever and until he doesn't leave tmac will never be a top 5 player.
Tmac can play defense, the sole reason why he was brought on in toronto was for defense. In orlando it disappeared and it resurfaced back in houston. Now the question is, will tmac go back to camping on the perimiter? Or will he mix it up?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (desi tmac91 @ May 6 2006, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah i hope he does too, but its not his fault for being this bad. JVG has to be the worst coach ever and until he doesn't leave tmac will never be a top 5 player.</div>I am going to agree with you, the style of play Van Gundy runs is not set up for Mcgrady to be the superstar scorer he was in Orlando. It's a more controlled, and paced style, that has the ball passed around alot more and not in Mcgrady's hands all the time like it was in Orlando. Mcgrady is still the possible scoring threat on the court, able to go off for 50 or more on any given night, but the type of offense he is in now isn't catered to him doing that. I don't believe this makes Van Gundy a bad coach though, i actually think this will make the Rockets much tougher this next season, with Yao emerging this year and showing he can handle being the primary scorer on the team. I see both of these two averaging in the 20's in points per game next year, and this team being a much more balanced offensive team.As for the list mine would be Lebron JamesKobe BryantSteve NashDirk Elton Brand.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ May 6 2006, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After this years playoffs, I just don't see how Kobe will be better than LeBron, or TMac, or anyone. LeBron was already a better passer and rebounder than Kobe before these playoffs started. You yourself admitted that you think Kobe will revert back to scoring. Therefore, come next year, LeBron will be a better passer, and rebounder than Kobe next year, and possibly, better scorer. Add the fact that he will most likely also lead his team to a better record, and I don't see how he'll be worse.Actually, LeBron was already a superioir scorer and rebounder to Kobe. Plus he only averaged 3 points less than Kobe, which isn't that much. Someone explain how Kobe will be better than LeBron?</div>Kobe is: More dynamic scorer (although with a few more months to work out the kinks in his jumpshot, Bron could change that), much better defender (one of few reasons why MJ was better than Magic), better leader, more clutch, and has 3 rings. LeBron still isn't as good as Kobe. But I put him #1 next year because with another summer of hard work to imrpove defense and touchup jumpshot, he will be just as good, if not better. People, you have to remember that every year players change. Last year Kobe wasn't evena top 5 player, now he is #1. Next year his numbers could be back down to 27PPG and 6APG.As for T-Mac, when healthy he is best swingman in league. He was best swingman in 2002-2003 and last year. Problem is, he was bad in 2003-2004 and this year, so inconsistency due to injury is a problem. But, he is best scorer in NBA, one of the best playmakers for a swingman, one of the ebst rebounders, and one of the best defenders. If he can finally get out of 2nd round and show a little more in the clutch and stay healthy, he'll be the top player next year.
Calm down with the best defenders, he was good last season. What i don't want to see is him camping on the 3 point line.And kobe's numbers will drop because the team is finally coming together.
OK, let's compare these players as they stand now -Scoring - Kobe and LeBron are both great scorers, which is obvious. During the regular season this year, Kobe scored 35 PPG. That was the 8th highest scoring mark in NBA History I believe? LeBron scored 32 PPG. Kobe is able to do it in more ways than LeBron, which must count for something. However, LeBron does it in a more efficient way. He shoots 49% to Kobe's 44%. Add in the fact that Kobe only scores 3 PPG more, while shooting 5% less, and does that tell you anything? In these playoffs, Kobe is shooting 50%, and averaging 29 PPG. LeBron is shooting 1% more, yet scoring 6 PPG more, at 35 PPG. Is Kobe Bryant really that better a scorer? I'll give it to you: He does score more, and he does do it in more ways, but it is as close a battle as they come. Passing - This season, Kobe supposedly had to shoot. Therefore his assist counts would be naturally low. However, not only does 27 SPG and only 4.5 APG show Kobe's inferior passing ability, but it also shows his unwillingness to pass. LeBron averaged 4 less SPG in almost identical minutes, and 2 APG more. In the postseason, while Kobe has been depicted a "passer" and LeBron a "scorer", LeBron still averages equal assists. In other words, if LeBron decides to shoot first and Kobe decides to pass first; he still averages as many assists as Kobe. If Kobe decides to shoot first, and LeBron decides to shoot and pass; LeBron averages more assists. LeBron is a downright better passer than Kobe, and not even hardcore Laker fans will argue thatRebounding - Kobe plays SG, and LeBron plays SF. Therefore, both players normally start from the same area of the court, and go for the rebound in the same circumstance. All we have to do is turn to numbers, and we realize that LeBron averaged a near 2 RPG more than Kobe Bryant. He is the better rebounder, a stat no one will argue.Clutch play - People always talk about how Kobe is the better clutch player than LeBron, but is he? For this stat, we must compare over the past three seasons, because it's the only stat we have, and clutch opportunities don't come by as often. While Kobe has made 7 game winners to LeBron 4, both do it at the exact same rate! Kobe shoots 42%, and LeBron shoots 41%. In 4th Quarters this year, Kobe only averaged 1.5 PPG more than LeBron. So far, Kobe still holds the lead, but factor in this: Over Kobe's entire playoff career, he has hit 3 game winning shots. In LeBron's playoff career, he has already hit two, including two this year to Kobe's one. In the second half of this year, LeBron had two game winning shots to Kobe's none if I'm not mistaken. It's way too close. 1% difference. 1 point difference. One game winning shot difference. It's too close to call, draw hereLeadership - How does one know about this? While we've seen Kobe hugging Smush Parker, we've seen him screaming at Devan George. While we've seen LeBron try and hump Damon Jones, we've seen him get in heated conversations. One cannot judge leadership with either of these guys right now, because both are being depicted as equal leaders.Defender - Yes, Kobe is a better defender. However, during this series, he has been guarding Raja Bell and James Jones. That's really impressive isn't it? Kobe has become more and more inconsistent defensively, and is not miles ahead of LeBron anymore.So, LeBron is a superior passer and rebounder. Kobe is a slightly better defender and scorer. Both are equal clutch players, and leaders. Add the fact LeBron has been getting his team further in terms of wins, and perhaps playoff success and I don't see how LeBron isn't going to be better by next year.**SPG referring to Shots Per Game
Last year T-Mac shutdown Dirk for 7 games.....he was one of best defending swingmen in league. Only Marion and Kobe were better (bowen too if you consider him a swingman). Camping out on 3 point line isn't bad, but he has to have a 2nd option. When he is on, his 3 point shot is so lethal. But when he is not, he ahs to be able to drive down lane and finish strong. This year he could barely get ball over rim to dunk. Only Kobe's PPG will drop, but I don't think it will be by as much as you think. This Suns series is a huge fluke. Suns have terrible defense and no low post presence. If Lakers get past 1st round, you'll see Kobe averaging over 35PPG again and rest of team doing nothing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (desi tmac91 @ May 6 2006, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This topic is about what you think who will be the top five players next season.1. Kobe Bryant- the mvp of the league2. Steve Nash- mvp of 20053. Dwanye Wade- one of the most flashiest and clucth players4. Tracy Mcgrady- my boi will be back next season5. Yao Ming- have you seen this guy as of late</div> I think your forgetting someone named LeBron James...
Camping on the 3 point line is bad because when you're off you're driving game won't be as refined. You need to mix it up, not to lean on one aspect of your'e game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ May 6 2006, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Camping on the 3 point line is bad because when you're off you're driving game won't be as refined. You need to mix it up, not to lean on one aspect of your'e game.</div>It's a double edged sword. If he's on, he is amazing. if he's off, he needs to drive it. I want him to be in middle, and be more of a midrange guy like in Orlando, when he did the MJ pump-fadeaway from the free throw line area. KMart- Kobe has proven throughout his career he is more clutch. He is like 3 game winners from passing MJ on all time list. Defensively, he was on all-NBA 1st team for defense. Until LeBron gets that honor, I can't call him a better defender.
Yes but again, we are talking about the players they are now and what will they become. In the recent years, and most noticabley this year, Kobe has become an inconsistent and sometimes lazy defender. He is still better than LeBron, and like I said, slightly.And the percentages over the past 3 years don't lie, he and LeBron are equally clutch players. They are almost equal in percentages, they score very close in the 4th quarter, and LeBron has done more in the playoffs. Right now, Kobe is a slightly better defender, and they are equal clutch players
Are you serious? Equal clutch players? You call lebron's travelling clutch?What's clutch is hit 24 gamewinners, what's clutch is sending the game into ot then winning it at the buzzer. What's clutch is at the age of 21, going for 4/4 in overtime and leading you're team in the nba finals to victory. What's clucth is sending you're team to ot with a miracle 3 then winning the game in ot with another. That is clutch.Untill lebron pulls of what kobe has done, i will not consider him on the level of kobe [interms of clutchness].
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 6 2006, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He needs a change of scenery. His number went down pretty signficantly this year, and I think he is starting to realize that Minnesota, in 10 years, has done nothing for him to win a championship.</div>He does not need a change of scenery. Minnesota is the only home has known and he hates change, do you really think he'd be happy anywhere else. He loves it here, if anything being traded would hurt him mentally.His numbers went down signficantly? Last year he got 22.2ppg on 50% shooting and this year he got 21.8ppg on 53% shooting. He got 13.5rpg last year to his 12.7rpg this year and his assists went down 1.6 but assists have more to do with teammates than anything else. He had less turnovers and more steals this year than last year and his blocks were similar. I don't see how his numbers dropped so bad.
Most players don't win Championships and KG knows this, any team that trades for him will not be good enough to compete for a title.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ May 6 2006, 07:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes but again, we are talking about the players they are now and what will they become. In the recent years, and most noticabley this year, Kobe has become an inconsistent and sometimes lazy defender. He is still better than LeBron, and like I said, slightly.And the percentages over the past 3 years don't lie, he and LeBron are equally clutch players. They are almost equal in percentages, they score very close in the 4th quarter, and LeBron has done more in the playoffs. Right now, Kobe is a slightly better defender, and they are equal clutch players</div>Kobe has been inconsistent as a defender, but when he wants he can turn it up and lockdown a superstar player. Bron can't (yet). That is the big difference. He has been inconsistent because with Shaq gone there is no low post to back him up when he goes for a steal, and he has to put in twice as much effort on offense.And no, they are not equal clutch players. Kobe is just simply stunning at ends of games. He led league in PPG in 4th quarters, and while his GW % wasn't great, he had no teammates to take some pressure off him. When Bron is in late game situation, teams look for him to pass. As for these playoffs, Kobe has pushed a Suns team to 7 games. Bron's Cavs were expected to beat the Wiz, Lakers were expected to get swept or beaten in 5. And Kobe was amazing in game 6 at the end of the game, with the most amazing shots falling. He also has 2 GW's in game 4.
Kobe hasn't turned it up once this season. I never saw him turn it up like he could in the regular season. He is a better defender than LeBron, but he doesn't show it enough for that to be a huge gapAnd the stats don't lie. Kobe and LeBron shoot the same percentage with 10 seconds left, game on the line. LeBron has hit more clutch shots in these playoffs. LeBron was a comparable 4th Quarter scorer this year. They are very, very close in terms of clutch play.Why do you people keep going back to what Kobe *has* done? I'm not hypocritical, believe it or not. I'm the same guy that said Kobe was way better than DWade because of what he has done his whole career. Notice how in my comparison I said, "The players they are now." Over their careers, Kobe is a better player by far and away, but I am comparing them within the past three years, since LeBron joined the NBA.And Melo, I've really grown tired of you. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Are you serious? Equal clutch players? You call lebron's travelling clutch?</div>During the course of an NBA game, there are tons and tons of travels, non-calls, and offensive fouls. Get over it, because NBA officials miss calls like that over time in order to make stars look better. Kobe gets the advantage of thsi as much as anyone, and you know it<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What's clutch is hit 24 gamewinners, what's clutch is sending the game into ot then winning it at the buzzer. What's clutch is at the age of 21, going for 4/4 in overtime and leading you're team in the nba finals to victory. What's clucth is sending you're team to ot with a miracle 3 then winning the game in ot with another.</div> Like I said, I wasn't comparing them in terms of career. I used the fact that Kobe has hit 3 gamewinners in his whole career to LeBron's already 2 simply to justify that Kobe is overrated in that department. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>OK, let's compare these players as they stand now</div>That's what I said. Right there proves it. I am comparing them as they are now, the players they have become and all the years they've been that player. I'm comparing them as of now, and for the future.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart @ May 6 2006, 08:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe hasn't turned it up once this season. I never saw him turn it up like he could in the regular season. He is a better defender than LeBron, but he doesn't show it enough for that to be a huge gapAnd the stats don't lie. Kobe and LeBron shoot the same percentage with 10 seconds left, game on the line. LeBron has hit more clutch shots in these playoffs. LeBron was a comparable 4th Quarter scorer this year. They are very, very close in terms of clutch play.Why do you people keep going back to what Kobe *has* done? I'm not hypocritical, believe it or not. I'm the same guy that said Kobe was way better than DWade because of what he has done his whole career. Notice how in my comparison I said, "The players they are now." Over their careers, Kobe is a better player by far and away, but I am comparing them within the past three years, since LeBron joined the NBA.</div>He did it against T-Mac in their first matchup (although T-Mac had GW), and I had heard at beginning of season he was doing it (I can't really tell you with stats, I would need to look back on the games and see game by game who Kobe guarded).No, they are not close. Bron ahs teammates to pass to in clutch. Damon Jones hit that shot last night, Flip Murray had at least 3 GW's since being traded to the Cavs, and Marshell has hit clutch shots. That forces Kobe to shoot some very tough shots in crowds and double teams. Bron always get single teamed at end of games, and when he gets doubled, he passes it to a role player capable of hitting GW. And once again, Kobe throughout his career has proven he is more clutch.As for playoffs, did you see how many ridiculously hard shots Kobe hit in Game 6? I thoguht he was more clutch in that game than in Game 4. What they have done in past does affect this convo and what they are now. Hell, before March, Bron had never hit a GW with around 5 seconds or under to go in his career. Kobe had hit like 24 before then. Also, except for defense, there is nothing Kobe does now that he did better a few years ago. Kobe is better than ever now. Also, Kobe is shooting 45%, not 44%, and Bron is shooting 48%, not 49%.
I don't care who's the best player in the league, only what this thread is about.And that's who will be the top 5 players...not who's the best one.My list would be Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Wade, and Tmac(if fully healthy), if not Steve Nash.
