You talk about LeBron's 1 travel but if Wade didn't draw a foul when someone was near him he wouldn't score half the points he did. If you're going to go against LeBron getting calls, Wade gets even more. He finished off the regular season better than early on and carried his team throughout the playoffs. He made 2 game winners vs. the Wizards and I agree with Hang Eleven that assists on game winners were also big. No one has him over your beloved Wade in this though, don't worry. You do have him in the 6 you listed so I don't know why you're surprised when people have him a spot or 2 ahead of were you put him.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 7 2006, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It isn't even just taking the last shot, it's taking over a game when your team needs it.</div>And he did that in a tougher situation than Wade but just didn't play well for 1 quarter like Kobe.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Sep 7 2006, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You talk about LeBron's 1 travel but if Wade didn't draw a foul when someone was near him he wouldn't score half the points he did. If you're going to go against LeBron getting calls, Wade gets even more. He finished off the regular season better than early on and carried his team throughout the playoffs. He made 2 game winners vs. the Wizards and I agree with Hang Eleven that assists on game winners were also big. No one has him over your beloved Wade in this though, don't worry. You do have him in the 6 you listed so I don't know why you're surprised when people have him a spot or 2 ahead of were you put him.</div>Bro, Wade's done it his whole career. Did it in his rookie season in playoffs, did it without Shaq against Wizards in playoffs, scored 17 straight pts and GW vs Pistons this year, had a huge 4th quarter against Pistons when team was down this year in playoffs to seal a win (in a series he was averaging 30PPG on nearly 70% shooting outside of last game where he was sick and didn't play 4th due to lobsided win), etc... Wade was fouled quite a bit in the Finals. Was he fouled on that phantom call in game 5? You could question that, but he still hit some extremely tough shots in that series, and when team was down 0-2, and 10 points with 5min to go he took over and averaged 40PPG through next 4 games including 2 of the most memorable 4th quarters we have ever seen in NBA finals.Don't bring down Wade because you may not agree with what I say about Bron. I put Bron in top 6 because of what he can do throughout game, and how he can have triple doubles while getting 40 points. In that sense, he is all over the game and takes it over in so many facets. But in 4th quarter he doesn't deserve to be in top 10.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And he did that in a tougher situation than Wade but just didn't play well for 1 quarter like Kobe.</div>He did what in a tougher situation than Wade? You mean walking into lane for an uncontested layup vs Wizards, or blatantly travelling is a "tougher situation" than having 15-20pt 4th quarters including tough game tying shots and GW free throws/rebounds/steals against one of the better defensive teams in league? Or scoring 17 straight points against the best defensive team in the league, including GW (and Shaq wasn't even in quite a bit of that time due to the hack a Shaq risk). Or how about hitting a GW in playoffs in rookie season? Or scoring 21PPG against best team in league and carrying that heat team? Again, don't lower Wade because you don't agree with me about Bron. Wade has proven himself more than once, Bron still has many questions surrounding him.
I have Wade at #2 but Bron still deserves to be up there. He was great at the end of the season. It's understandable that a guy out of high school isn't able to make all the game winners at first but he did enough for me to put him in the top 5. I think Wade did get grabbed in game 5 but the majority of the times he went to the line were for almost nothing. That "travel" against the Wizards was just as legit as most of what Wade did during the playoffs. You're the one taking away from Bron.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Sep 7 2006, 08:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have Wade at #2 but Bron still deserves to be up there. He was great at the end of the season. It's understandable that a guy out of high school isn't able to make all the game winners at first but he did enough for me to put him in the top 5. I think Wade did get grabbed in game 5 but the majority of the times he went to the line were for almost nothing. That "travel" against the Wizards was just as legit as most of what Wade did during the playoffs. You're the one taking away from Bron.</div>I don't think you are getting my point. My point being isn't that Bron has a bad percentage of hitting the winning shots, but rather the drive and willingness to accept the role to take over games. Kobe couldn't hit GW's early in his career, but against Jazz in '98 playoffs he was given chance to take over and he tried the best he could. The shots didn't fall, but his killer instinct was shown, and eventually they started to go down. Bron hasn't shown the drive or killer instinct to take over games and hit the game winning shots to lead team to victory. Lots of times he just fades away in close games, or misses the clutch shots/FT's when given the chance.Wade didn't get near 70% shooting against Pistons due to bad ref calls, and 95% of the NBA Finals were justly called towards Wade. Did he get the superstar bailout calls? Sure he got some of those calls, but Bron also gets that leeway, as does Kobe. Wade played amazing basketball, even if you take away the free throws, and showed the killer instinct, as he has done his whole career.
I don't understand know how LeBron didn't show that carrying his team to 7 playoff wins. Sometimes being the only player that showed up. He did take over games every time they won and just because he passed it for the game winning assist doesen't mean he shyed away from taking over...it means he was smart enough to find the open man instead of forcing up a shot. I think he did enough of that at the end of the season to make the top 5.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Sep 7 2006, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't understand know how LeBron didn't show that carrying his team to 7 playoff wins. Sometimes being the only player that showed up. He did take over games every time they won and just because he passed it for the game winning assist doesen't mean he shyed away from taking over...it means he was smart enough to find the open man instead of forcing up a shot. I think he did enough of that at the end of the season to make the top 5.</div>In the games they beat the Pistons everyone showed up and played fairly well. Bron's numbers were considerably lower in the Pistons series, and considering teammates didn't play well most of the time, he should have been taking more shots to get his points. Kobe did it when teammates weren't playing well ing ame 6 vs Suns, Wade did it in Finals, etc...I have no problem with him making a pass to an open man to win the game. But many, MANY times he is showed up by other star players on other teams, or when his teammates aren't hitting shots he continues to pass and not take things into his own hands. He has improved this, but still showed signs of his old self towards end of season (like 2 FGA's in 4th quarter of a very close game).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (James17_Dunn @ Sep 5 2006, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1. Kobe Bryant2. Dwyane Wade3. Allen Iverson4. Lebron James5. Tim Duncan</div> :happy0144:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>1. Kobe Bryant2. Dwyane Wade3. Allen Iverson4. Lebron James5. Tim Duncan</div>Wow, that is the perfect list then at 6 I would have T mac and 7 would be ben gordon. I dont understand how anybody can put dirk in the top 5 I dont even see how he is top 10, does anybody remember that pivotal free throw dirk missed in game 3 of the finals with 3.4 seconds to go. I do.
Wade's takover against the pistons isn't really unique. Kobe bryant had 24 points in the 4th against the magic. He also shut down tmac to 35% in the 2nd half. That beats anything wade has every done in the regular season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 9 2006, 03:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wade's takover against the pistons isn't really unique. Kobe bryant had 24 points in the 4th against the magic. He also shut down tmac to 35% in the 2nd half. That beats anything wade has every done in the regular season.</div>Umm, 17 straight points, including GW jumper against toughest defense in the league is more impressive than 24 points against the Magic. Seriously, why do you keep trying to sh*t on Wade and make him look bad? If you don't like him or don't like the thought of your precious Kobe getting replaced for that #1 spot, don't post about him!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 10 2006, 02:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Umm, 17 straight points, including GW jumper against toughest defense in the league is more impressive than 24 points against the Magic. Seriously, why do you keep trying to sh*t on Wade and make him look bad? If you don't like him or don't like the thought of your precious Kobe getting replaced for that #1 spot, don't post about him!</div>Myth - Detroit isn't the toughest defense in the league. They haven't been since lb left. Their a top defensive team but not the best.I see scoring 24 points, bring your team back single handedly whilst shutting down at that time the best offensive player in the league and something special. And the shots he was making were basically all jumpshots. And one more thing, wade isn't going to pass kobe for the number 1 spot. Sadly wade will never be the best basketball player in the nba. Lebron will. If you actually believe i have some sort of vendetta against wade then that's fine. I just call it as i see it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 9 2006, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Myth - Detroit isn't the toughest defense in the league. They haven't been since lb left. Their a top defensive team but not the best.I see scoring 24 points, bring your team back single handedly whilst shutting down at that time the best offensive player in the league and something special. And the shots he was making were basically all jumpshots. And one more thing, wade isn't going to pass kobe for the number 1 spot. Sadly wade will never be the best basketball player in the nba. Lebron will. If you actually believe i have some sort of vendetta against wade then that's fine. I just call it as i see it.</div>They still have the toughest perimeter D in league. Chauncey, Rip and Tayshaun, and you don't want to drive against them, either.... Only reason the numbers aren't as good as with LB is because less stress on defense. When they want to put on the clamps they do.And Wade didn't single handedly bring the Heat back?!? The Heat were down by 7 points with less than 5min to go before he scored 17 straight points, including game winner. And FYI, they were almost all jumpshots within 12-18ft, including game winner against the taller, longer Tayshaun Prince. To me that is more impressive than Kobe scoring 24 over an entire quarter against a weak defensive team. Now think of the situation- Up until that shot, the Heat hadn't beat the Pistons yet that year (following a year they lost to them in 7 games), and they had a god awful record against division leaders. With that win it gave them confidence that they could beat the Pistons, and sparked a 9 game winning streak. Lakers, a team with young Kobe and prime Shaq and many great role players, a team that had won 3 straight rings, beat an 8th seed caliber team in the Orlando Magic....big deal!Right now he is #3 on my list, behind Kobe and TD. All Wade needs to do is bring range back a few feet, keep doing what he is doing, and improve man on man D a bit, and he will be best in NBA IMO. He has the best overall numbers next to LeBron, he is arguably the most clutch player in NBA right now, and is just overall an amazing player who has used his talents much more so than LeBron has. Does Bron have more upside? Yes, but he still has things to improve on to become the best player in the league.
I still don't know how you come to the conclusion that i have some sort of vendetta against Wade. I haven't said anything that screams out "hate".Wade's man to man d is averageWade's jumpshot needs working onWade's not better then lebronWade gambled too much in the WC'SWade's 17 points impressive but not uniqueI haven't said anything too outrageous like wade can't play defense or he isn't a top 5 player. It seems ad if you're too emotionally attached to wade .Nothing that i've said can be deemed hate.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>They still have the toughest perimeter D in league. Chauncey, Rip and Tayshaun, and you don't want to drive against them, either.... Only reason the numbers aren't as good as with LB is because less stress on defense. When they want to put on the clamps they do.</div>As you said it, less stress on defense. Offense came first. Couple with the fact that offensive players have the upper hand now with the new rules and great defensive teams became good. By playoff time detroit's defense was not even good, it was average. The only time their defense was awesome was when they shut down lebron in the 2nd half. Other then that it was average. They let 3 heat players shoot 50% in a series. They let the heat shoot 52% in the series. That aint good defense.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And Wade didn't single handedly bring the Heat back?!? The Heat were down by 7 points with less than 5min to go before he scored 17 straight points, including game winner. And FYI, they were almost all jumpshots within 12-18ft, including game winner against the taller, longer Tayshaun Prince. To me that is more impressive than Kobe scoring 24 over an entire quarter against a weak defensive team. Now think of the situation- Up until that shot, the Heat hadn't beat the Pistons yet that year (following a year they lost to them in 7 games), and they had a god awful record against division leaders. With that win it gave them confidence that they could beat the Pistons, and sparked a 9 game winning streak. Lakers, a team with young Kobe and prime Shaq and many great role players, a team that had won 3 straight rings, beat an 8th seed caliber team in the Orlando Magic....big deal!</div>They were both regular season games. That orlando game enabled the lakers to move to 3rd in the west. They passed the spurs. It also kicked started a 10 game winning streak. It also was the first time in a while where both kobe and shaq utterly dominated. Kobe shut down the best offensive player in the league whilst scoring 24 points of his own in the 4th. I see that as more impressive.Right now he is #3 on my list, behind Kobe and TD. All Wade needs to do is bring range back a few feet, keep doing what he is doing, and improve man on man D a bit, and he will be best in NBA IMO. He has the best overall numbers next to LeBron, he is arguably the most clutch player in NBA right now, and is just overall an amazing player who has used his talents much more so than LeBron has. Does Bron have more upside? Yes, but he still has things to improve on to become the best player in the league.I take lebron because his the better scorer, rebounder, passer, playmaker. They both not good defenders, wade has upper side on off the ball defense. Lebron has shown he can lead his team places also, detroit only had to focus on lebron. Wade's a better clutch player. Better leader. It's actually tougher then it looks but i take Lebron because his offensive game outdoes wade's and their defensive games are both average.
[quote name='Melo061' date='Sep 9 2006, 08:24 PM' post='154897']I still don't know how you come to the conclusion that i have some sort of vendetta against Wade. I haven't said anything that screams out "hate".[/quote]You either have a vendetta against Wade or me, because you were the one who started saying crap about Wade when I wasn't even talking about him. Agreed. Midrange is money. I think he is. Wade was second leading scorer on team, arguably most effective perimeter defender on team, one of the very few bright spots against Greece, if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have a medal from the WC's. Now that's just a stupid thing to say. 17 straight points, and GW against one of best defensive teams in league (arguably the best) to seal such an important win for Heat is unique and probably his most impressive quarter in his career (which is saying A LOT considering the Finals he had). I feel is underrated by many people due to all the hype LeBron gets (sort of like how badly people think Melo is underrated because the hype Bron and Wade get), and I never said you hate Wade. But whenever I bring him up, or don't bring him up, you always want to seem to demote him for whatever reason. You forgot to mention when they held Bron to 27PPG on 44% shooting, 6APG and 4.5 To's per game through a 7 game series. When they want to, they can play D better than anyone else in league. They tried against Wade, he burned them. Even if it was against an average team, 17 straight points including GW is amazing. Magic were worst team in league at that time, Lakers moved up on Spurs but that Lakers team went like 18-3 to start off season and they had confiedence. Not to mention a Shaq that was still healthy and dominant. The Heat were sort of in dissaray with coaching changes, not meeting expectations at start of season, Shaq hurting and not being as dominant, they had like 1 win against a dvision leader, Detroit had Heat's number for past year, etc.... The Heat's win, IMO was more important, and the actual performance Wade put up was equally as impressive as Kobe's. I feel Wade is better scorer (slightly more efficient, and he has a consistent 2nd option to his driving, where Bron is inconsistent with his jumper, and sometimes gets a little trigger happy from 3), better defender (say what you want, that is what made MJ better than Magic and many other great offensive players, and it is half the game), better leader, free throw shooter and far better clutch player. Bron is better playmaker (although Wade still does average 6.7APG, .1APG more than bron) and rebounder (well, considering Wade is 4 inches, and nearly 30lbs smaller, averaging 1.5RPG less is pretty impressive of Wade), but everything else I give to Wade. Wade is an above average defender. I don't care what you say, you can't get on the all defensive 2nd team by just being average. He is an average man to man defender, but amazing at stripping the ball from people, playing passing lanes, and very good at sneaking up on players and getting blocks.If you feel Bron is better....no arguements here! But if I am criticizng LeBron, don't bring Wade into arguement or downgrade every single of his great achievements. I don't do that with LeBron, except the fact that people call him a top clutch player because of a wide open layup and a travel. If you want to say that about a few of the fouls called for Wade in Finals, fine, he has done so much more outside of that to be at leats in top 2 takeover/clutch players in the game. Can't say same for Bron.
Hmm, I'm looking at the replay and it wasn't a travel by Lebron. I don't think he came down before letting it go but it's close. Wade got plenty of phantom calls going for him the whole playoffs. He's still at #2 and no one is arguing that. Nitro, you and dumb or bandwagon Heat fans are the only ones who think he's better than LeBron. He's not far away but there's no way he's better. If he's only slightly better at him on D it doesen't make Wade that much better than him because defense is half of the game. They both get the same amount of blocks. Wade got .4 more steals last year but LeBron had .6 more the year before while Wade had averaged slightly higher on blocks. They both need to work on their man-to-man D but they're almost equal here. Wade isn't better at 50% of the game for just a few more steals.
Didn't talk crap about wade. I said he's preformance wasnt unique. His jumpshot was great against the nets but besides that it wasnt great. In the wc's most of his points came out anytthing besides a jumper. Kirk hinrich was the better defender then him. This isn't even arguable, go check out the game tape. Wade's defense at the wc was poor. Again they're not even arguably the best defensive team in the league. They let a team shoot 52% against them. Obviously you missed greg anthony who said wade's the best player in the nba. Simmons said he was the best guard in the nba. Others have said wade is the best player in the nba. In my mind Wade has gone from underrated to overrated. But that happens when you win the finals mvp. You also forgot to mention that on offense Lebron's teamates were worthless. Especially in game 7 when Detroit didn't have to worry about lebron's teamates because they hadn't shown up. The only thing his teamates did well was play good defense. No-one was abled to take the pressure off lebron on offense. The team as a whole shot 42% whilst when the heat played the pistons 2 other player shot 60%. It might have been more important but that game kick started the lakers 10 game winning streak. It was a big win because it was the first time for a about aseason where kobe and shaq dominated another team on their own. It also showed kobe to be an elite defender. I'm saying average because i think his man to man defense is poor. His off the ball defense is great and to me that doesn't equal above average. It equals average to me. I value man to man defense more so then team defense because any good man to man defender can be a good team defender. Example of this would be MJ or a Kobe. If your going to critcise lebron for blowing by the defense and scoring then why don't we criticise wade for being clutch from the freethrow line . At the end of game 6, who was at the freethrow line? Wade. Who was at the line at the end of game 5? Wade.Is that being clutch? Hell yeah. Is Giving your teamate a great shot to win a game clutch? Hell yes. Is being 2nd in the league for points in the 4th clutch? Definently. Is lebron a bonafide clutch player like kobe ? No. Is he a choker? HELL NO. I'd say being 2nd in the league for points in the 4th is taking over and being a clutch player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Sep 9 2006, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmm, I'm looking at the replay and it wasn't a travel by Lebron. I don't think he came down before letting it go but it's close. Wade got plenty of phantom calls going for him the whole playoffs. He's still at #2 and no one is arguing that. Nitro, you and dumb or bandwagon Heat fans are the only ones who think he's better than LeBron. He's not far away but there's no way he's better. If he's only slightly better at him on D it doesen't make Wade that much better than him because defense is half of the game. They both get the same amount of blocks. Wade got .4 more steals last year but LeBron had .6 more the year before while Wade had averaged slightly higher on blocks. They both need to work on their man-to-man D but they're almost equal here. Wade isn't better at 50% of the game for just a few more steals.</div>It was a travel...Bron gets calls in every game he is in, just like Wade, so don't give me that bullsh*t. I am not protesting and calling the NBA a scam because that travel on bronw asn't called, but he sure isn't a top ten clutch player because of it either.I don't understand the sentence, "Nitro, you and dumb or bandwagon Heat fans are the only ones who think he's better than LeBron." If you are calling me dumb, then you have never seen Dwyane Wade play. I prefer him as a scorer. Why? He can score just as well going to rim, and is more consistent from midrange, which makes him more efficient. I prefer him as a leader. Why? He carried a Heat team all year that was in dissaray and was all over the place, with his 2nd option hurting. What he did in Finals down 0-2, with Shaq averaging 13PPG, down 10 with 5min to go is just amazing, even if you think he got phantom calls. I feel he is better clutch player. Why? No need to even explain. Bron isn't a much better passer or rebounder (if anything you could make a case for Wade being a better rebounder), so I really don't see why so many people believe Bron is better outside of pure talent.It isn't just a few more steals. Bron gambles much more in passing lanes to get his steals, while Wade is better at sneaking up on people while they are dribbling to get his. Wade is a better man to man defender. I never said Wade was 50% better, but defense is 50% of the game, and Wade has an edge here. So if you consider Bron a slightly better offensive player, and Wade a slightly better defensive player, then you look at the intangibles....
Wade is not more effecient then lebron. StatsThat page take everyone into account including the offense being run.
I wasn't calling you dumb Nitro I was saying you AND dumb or bandwagon Heat fans...Wade has been clutch but he wouldn't have done much more with that Cavs team and LeBron would already have 1 or two championships. As for this thread, no one is arguing that Wade isn't better here but LeBron should be mentioned because of what he did at the end of the season. He showed that he can do it do.And no it wasn't a travel.
[quote name='Melo061' post='154965' date='Sep 9 2006, 09:37 PM']Didn't talk crap about wade. I said he's preformance wasnt unique.[/quote]You brought him up in first place, said he will never be best player in NBA (extremely ignorant), etc... It was fantastic against Pistons in the ECF (30PPG on 70% shooting through first 5 games), and fantastic and as unstoppable as it comes in the Finals. Kirk didn't play as much as Wade, and didn't get the steals or blocks Wade did. Hinrich is definately the better defender, but in the WC's Wade was more effective. Yes, they are. You can't hold LeBron James to so much lower than his season average by not being one of the best defensive teams in league.Their starting 5 was exactly the same as it was when they had that streak of holding teams to 70PPG, only difference being Tayshaun has gotten better. When they want to, they put the clamps down, and have shown that time and time again. Ain't like Prince wasn't trying to stop Wade score 17 straight points, including GW. Kobe had it easier against the Magic, much easier. There are people who give Wade props, but there are still an overwhelming majority that feel Shaq lead the Heat and Shaq made such a huge difference in the Finals, whereas Wade just has mooched off him his whole career. Or that his championship shouldn't matter when comparing him to Bron because he has Shaq...give me a f*cking break. Umm, only Wade and Shaq had over 60% shooting...Bron's teammates weren't worthless. Bron couldn't get it going against Prince, and couldn't defend Prince either. In Game 7 his teammates played badly, but that was largly part 2 Prince playing Bron mostly one on one, and not letting role players do anything. Sort of like in Finals vs Lakers, what they did with Kobe. Against the Heat, they tried to do what they did year before and let Shaq go off and try to guard everyone else. Wade absolutely destroyed them, and that threw off their gameplan, which left the role players more open shots. If Wade was only around 50% like in season, Heat wouldn't have won the series. I agree it was big for Lakers in terms of kicking up a winning streak, but the individual win didn't have much meaning. Beating Pistons was a huge hurdle they got through, started the first winning streak of season, etc...BTW, that 4th quarter also gave T-Mac a terrible reputation for choking when it matters....which still is a stereotype of him :no1: Wade is far from a poor man to man defender. He isn't elite, but he isn't bad. MEANINGLESS VIDEO!! It was one play, and he didn't blow by any defense. I don't know what the F*ck the Wizards were doing Bron has never been clutch from the line, just look at the game vs Melo, missed game tying free throw with less than a second left.Most of the games Bron is in that are close he dissapears in 4th, especially with like 2min left. He was 2 for 20 in game winning shots with 24 seconds or left on clock before he hit a jumper in season, then the 2 plays in the playoffs. And passing to wide open man is good, but a lot of time he relies too heavily on his teammates to carry load. Well, a lot of times he does, especially in clutch moments. I even saw it first hand in person, against Nets in December. Close game 'till midway through third, when Nets went on a role. Now, in 1st half Bron scored 16pts, but in 3rd only had 4 points during the Nets flurry. That pissed me off, like in many of the Pistons games, he should have kept shooting, even if bad shots, when team isn't performing. Kobe does it, Wade does it, Bron still isn't there. Again, 2 for 20 before 3 attempts, countless dissapearences in last 2-3min (sometimes whole 4th), etc... He is not a terrible clutch player anymore, but he is far from being a good-great clutch player.
