Trade Monta Ellis

I guess you're right. Monta was the man and we know Monta is not a point guard (we all know this unless we're totally delusional the way we might be about players like Allen Iverson or Steve Francis as floor generals). Having Curry, our real point guard, in the game makes everyone's life simpler because he's running the plays and preserving Ellis' role as a shooting guard. We still need a guy like Monta to bail us out until we get our other superstar back, but I just wish Ellis would not gamble so much defensively. Every time he reaches or let's a man through, the defense just breaks down. We're so small and unintimidating inside the paint we just give the other team the basket. He needs to stop reaching! Also I feel bad for Ellis in that sometimes he makes a good pass, but the guy inside bobbles it or misses the layup. I'd be pissed too. I'd be like c'mon man!

Also, if we traded for Iggy would he need the ball to be effective? I'm trying to gauge what his impact would be in terms of intangibles without the ball in hand. There's so much that does not show up on a stat sheet that are so important to whether the game is a win or a loss.

 

P.S. how awesome was Radmo against Sacramento? I absolutely dread his play at times, but I've seen him hit the big shots back when he was a supersonic. The guy is useful if he can stay consistent and stop doing the stupid defensive mistakes and mishandling possessions. He is like Pietrus... He'll make a big play to make one forget about the mistakes.

 

I wouldn't say Vlad was awesome. It was the same old crap from him. The 3 to send it to OT was nice but if it weren't for him the W's should have had the lead before that. He jsut doesn't think. He makes horrible passes, where even if they are caught, the guy has no where to go. Quick turn around 3's when we needed a good shot. I was at the game last night as it seemed like sacramento was trying to give the game away. I'm still in shock from that 3 going in. Especially becuase they had Monta open coming off a curl for an elbow 3.

On another note, Westphal is killing the Kings. I don't think Landry was in the game until the 2nd quarter. They kept trying to force the offense through Cousins when it wasn't working for them. Evans wasn't involved really at all the entire game. And the most shocking play of all, with 45 seconds left, out of a time out with the kings down 6 I think, he put in 5 3 pt shooters and fired up a quick 3, wasn't even a good look. They had plenty of time. I think that call gave the W's the win.

And the officiating was horrible.

 

I am right there with you, I had to turn off the game because midway through the 2nd there were 3 straight possessions where Monta went for the steal or simply let Evans go right into the lane.

Here's an example of what galls me, Monta anticipates a screen on the right elbow so he turns to try to cut off left, well what do you know, no screen comes and there's a free path for Evans to go right to the hoop because there's no one protecting the right. Why??? What is that?? Just give away the path to the lane? Next time down, there's Monta trying for the reach around steal, missing and its Evans right in the lane again.

 

Perfect example of poor communication. There's no need for anyone to have to "feel" a screen. The best teams call them out to one another. Either that, or Monta ignores it and does what he wants out there.

 

Monta is forced to compensate out on the perimeter. He's an amazing athlete and a scrapper, but he's not big. And he gets eaten up on a lot of those screens, and he's learned to"flinch" a little bit. This is another reason why a guy like Iggy would help. He's 6-6, and powerful, and also athletic like Monta. Not only does he move his feet extremely well to harass perimeter players, but he's strong enough to hold his own and fight through screens, so he doesn't need to take chances or gamble to play good D.

The worst player in that regard was CJ Watson. He had ZERO defense. He couldn't guard a tree stump. So he would try to compensate, take flashy chances and over play for strips and steals, because if he just tried to play good old fashioned defense, he'd get man-handled like a schoolgirl every time.

 

I do not care if you are small, moving your feet to stay in front is pure desire/effort. If you are going to get screened, fight and go under it, anything but trail and reach around hoping to poke a steal.

Another example, in the Houston game, Monta was beat and with his right hand reached across and grabbed Martin's LEFT hand. That is simply BAD, LAZY DEFENSE. Inexcusable.

 

I agree. But my point is he's in a PG body trying to defend SGs... eventually that catches up to you... there's a reason why the league has very, very few SGs that are under 6-5. Having one player on the court getting picked apart by high screens is one thing. Most teams accept that their PG is going to need help on the perimeter, which is why we've seen the evolution of "hedging" in the NBA.

Now, hedging is standard procedure at the top of the key. Big men do it now like robots, for better or worse. Beans does it because he's trained to do it, sometimes he hedges for no reason or fouls the PG with his hip 30 feet from the basket.

But the point I'm making is that most teams accept, live with, and game plan with the understanding that their PG will need that hedge or that help on the screen.

However, most teams do not have 2 PGs playing side by side, for this reason. One is livable, because you get the PG qualities in return. But 2... means you often get eaten up in the paint.

No matter how fast Monta moves his feet, this will always be a liability for GS simply because of sheer physics, IMO. Could he become a better defender? Absolutely, philsmith, I agree with you 100%. Defense is effort and desire. And smarts. Monta doesn't show a lot of that, all the time, on defense. He reaches a lot, goes for steals, and takes risks.

But nonetheless, it will always be a problem, IMO, until GS gets a 6-5 or bigger guard who wants to D it up. If we had Baron, it might be different. But we have Curry.

This is why I want a guy like Iggy. He would change the complexion of the team-defense, single handedly. Guys like Beans would look so much better because they don't always have to cover for the penetration, and can stay home, box out, and account for their own man. What a concept, I know...

 

Iguodala and Curry have some experience playing together with Team USA this summer. It would be interesting to see in a private behind closed doors interview with Stephen Curry to ask who he would rather play with: Ellis or Iguodala.

 

Although I'm in favor of keeping Monta available for trades, I'm not too concerned about trying to move him right away. I am optimistic that he'll basically keep his value or maybe even continue to increase it as he has fewer years left on his contract. And if we do end up trading Monta, I'd rather try to get young talent and draft picks, ideally someone like Portland's Batum. But I'll think out the possibilities with you guys.

On the short SG-bad defense thread, I wish Monta could somehow channel Eric Gordon defensively, they're both 6'3", although Gordon's got a good 30 pounds on Monta. I don't think Monta will ever really improve defensively, which is why I campaigned to have him traded last year.

I don't think Iggy is realistic as Philly is adamant about including Brand in any trade with Iggy. Iggy's contract is a few million per year more than Monta's, but Brand's is almost double Biedrins'. So it'd basically entirely kill any future years' cap space and thus roster flexiblity. Brand has been overachieving this season, but there's almost no way he'll ever be worth his contract. If it weren't for Brand, I'd definitely endorse some kind of deal for Iggy. Throughout the first few months of the season, he's been one of the top perimeter defenders, according to synergy's data. (Technically the 6th best per minutes played, but 4 of the 5 ahead of him are backups). He's an above average rebounder, creates shots for others, and is not turnover-prone.

Wallace is a more realistic trade target, but for some reason I don't like the trade that much. On the plus side, he's a good defender and he's versatile enough to guard wings and power forwards. But like Iggy, he's not efficient shooting the ball, and worse, he makes bad decisions offensively, leading to many turnovers, and leading him to be unable to be counted on to either create his own shot or create shots for others.

 

Yeah, I agree, no way we take Brand. We already have Lee and brand is like $15 mils versus Lee's $10 mils...

As far as Wallce versus Iggy, and decision-making / play making, the reason why I like Iggy is because how all-around productive he is. To put it in perspective, Iggy gets more assists than both Monta and Curry. What's more, his assist/turnover ratio is 8th best in the entire NBA!! His A/TO ratio is DOUBLE that of Monta and Steph, at 2.98. He's very, very good with the ball. His A/TO ratio is better than Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Jameer Nelson, Andre Miller... the list goes on and on.

That's pretty damn impressive for an explosive dunker, amazing SG rebounder (6.2 RPG!), and one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. Talk about complete package...

 

Another thing to put in perspective... Monta is leading the league in minutes right now at 40.4 MPG. There's a reason why he scores 25 PPG... he's averaging the most FG attempts in the league, as well, at 20.2 shots per game! As far as total shots, he's second in the league in total FG attempts, behind only Kobe.

Monta is shooting 48% FG. So even though he takes the most shots per game of ANYONE IN THE NBA, his FG% is 45th in the league. Take out the bigs and forwards, and he's still 12th amongst guards, which is good but not great.

By comparison, Iggy shoots 46% from the field, but he takes about half the shots that Monta takes (Iggy averages 11.7 FG attempts per game).

My final point is that, first off, Monta is going to wear down. A small guy guarding bigger guys every night, averaging the most minutes in the league, and taking more shots than ANYONE in the league. Yes he scores 25 PPG but it's kind of fool's gold. I just think Iggy would provide so much more in all the other areas of the team game, and his style would let Curry dominate the ball (which I want) and it would take pressure off Curry on defense. Perfect.

 

I have to defend Monta on these points. With the injuries to David Lee and Stephen Curry, who have both played 20 games each versus Monta's 28, Monta has had to take all those shots.

Monta's USG% is leading the team at 28.3% but next on the team is Curry at 25.8% and then Lee at 20.7%. With all three on the court, that's probably how you want the USG% to be anyway. So, by looking at the total shots taken and Monta's PPG stats, you'll get a slightly distorted view of what's really happened, IMO, because it doesn't take into account the other top guys' missed games.

Next, rather than look at his FG%, we need to look at his TS% and eFG%. And well, both aren't that great, but look at the entire team...no one is over 60% TS% (Curry is top at .595). Also, his TS% will hopefully climb as long as his FT's improve.

My point? Well, we can't really judge Monta on his scoring stats this year because he is actually playing a lot more efficient, the most efficient since 2007-2008 (and not that far off from those numbers, actually). His PER is actually better than the 2008 season by 1%. The difference is how he's being used and how he's getting those points, which we can debate if it's right or wrong, and if it's the coaches fault or Monta's fault (I would like to see the Synergy stats to see where most of his shots are taken). So if you put it in that context, he's doing alright.

The issue is, and always has been, his defense.

I think the minutes and his USG% will tail off a bit as long as Curry and Lee are healthy for most of the year.

On Iggy, I can't argue with all the points you make about him being a good fit for the team. However, I think whatever he's doing in Philly might not translate here in GS. Maybe that's a good thing, like David Lee's numbers being down but his impact on the team is clearly evident. But if we're going to replace the pretty efficient scoring of Monta with a guy who isn't use to being that type of scorer, the Warriors might have to drastically change how they initiate the offense. As it stands, especially with Curry out, it's pretty much see what Monta can do with his quickness. We might have to become a lot more deliberate with Iggy; I think coach Smart has tried this deliberate offense this season and it hasn't been very pretty. So, with new talent, we may need a new coach. Or maybe this coach needs new talent.

 

Very good points, DK. I like that Monta has been more efficient this year.

In none of my posts have I tried to diss Monta. In fact, I've said a number of times that there are very few Monta trades I'd actually consider. He's been superman for this team.

My last post above, I was just trying to point out how over-worked he is, and how, unfortunately, he will probably wear down. Yes, he has been asked to shoot those 20 shots a night. But so too, that is why he is getting 25 PPG. It's not because he is shooting 50% from the field, or 40% from three, or getting to the line a lot.

The team would definitely have a new look, you're right, if it were Iggy+sweetener for Monta+filler... Monta has been a 1-man offensive show (for better or worse at times). Iggy is not an and-1 mix tape player. He would not be instant offense (although he's capable of averaging more like 17-18 PPG, especially in an up-tempo system).

GS would definitely need to establish a new identity. Perhaps around defense and team play. But Curry would be the man, the go to option, the main playmaker, and Iggy would become his best friend. I dunno. Either player (Monta & Iggy) is a nice piece to have on a team. I guess I'm just trying to figure out who fits best with Curry, because that's my main focus...

 

Definitely. I'm not sure if the team would need to redefine its identity if they lost Monta, but for sure Curry and Lee and the bench would need to step up their production. I think Lee is coming along nicely and Curry has a lot more to showcase as far as being the primary scorer. Of course, I'd rather have Curry focus on being a playmaker but he should still do what comes naturally to him.

I agree that Monta's minutes need to come down. There's no way he can continue playing over 40mpg while being an undersized 2 on the defensive end (not that he's been buckling down on defense, but the thought of being in the disadvantage probably wears on his mind as much as the body). For Monta's minutes to come down, we need Curry to be healthy and we need the bench (especially Reggie) to produce more.

 

True, which makes me wonder if we are going to be the only ones talking GS trades, or if Riley will actually get something done. I think we need to send Lin to the D-League and add another SG to the bench, like Roger Mason if he gets waived. Then, make a trade using one of our exp bigs, preferably Gadz, along with another piece to bring back a difference maker.p I still like Monta/Gadz for Iggy/Nocioni, or try to get Speights or Hawes back...

 

I hope Jordan doesn't do that deal with Portland. It sounds like a win for the Blazers. What about trading for Kevin Martin? His name's been tossed around. I would do Monta and him straight across.

EDIT: The more I think about it Monta for Gerald Wallace would be a good deal. Jordan could be convinced that Monta wants to play with SJax and he and DJ Augustin would be a fit.

 

I wouldn't do that trade. GS could do a lot better than that, I think. I mean, Augustin actually looks like he's playing pretty decently this season. But Diop is doing diddly squat, and Crash Bandicoot is very good, but he's not a star. Frankly, his numbers are just a little bit better than Dorell Wright this year, and Wright can shoot the three.

I honestly don't get our forum's infatuation with Gerald Wallace. I do like his game, don't get me wrong. He rebounds extremely well for an SF. In fact, he averaged 18ppg/10rpg last year, which is pretty awesome. This year, he is doing good, but not great. I wouldn't mind having him, of course. But not for Monta Ellis. Especially not for Monta and Beans (in the deal above). I think, if GS uses Monta in a trade, it should be a slam dunk deal (of course I have been keen on Iggy+sweeteners...)

I think, with Charlotte, we might be able to get Crash without giving up Monta. Don't forget, we also have a few trade exceptions from CJ Watson and Anthony Morrow, so we could take back more $$ and give them some cap space in return.

I don't think they'll want Beans though. And Brandan Wright is no longer an attractive trade chip. Frankly, I don't see any Charlotte deal with giving up Monta, and I don't like any package from them enough to do it.

Here's one that works... Monta/Vlad for Wallace/Augustin/Tyrus Thomas. I don't know if the Bobcats would go for it, but I'm being stingy.

 

I hate to lose AB's rebounding cause Diop isn't that great for a 7-footer, but I dood that trade to get DJA and Wallace. Curry would slide to the 2. However, Charlotte wouldn't go for Monta as their PG . We're not talking Don Nelson.