Trade Monta Ellis

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by AlleyOop, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. Clif10

    Clif10 Member

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    I don't like the idea of Monta for Wallace. Wallace is decent, but isn't he more of a Jamison type of scorer? He gets his numbers but if he is your number one option you are not going far unless if you have perhaps a JKidd or Steve Nash as the point guard. I think the Monta/team problems with him on offense relying on isolations too much should be more seriously dealt with by Smart and others before making that deal.

    Ellis and Curry are players you want to have the ball in tough situations. I'm hesitant about trading that kind of player for Gerald Wallace especially if we already have D. Wright.
     
  2. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Jason Bourne, I'd stay away from Kevin Martin. I think hes my #1 most hated player in the NBA. Above Kobe. Above KG. Can't think of anyone who even comes close. He does nothing for the team besides scoring but hes so reliant upon the FT that he sucks when refs stop calling fouls in crunch time or the playoffs. Has he been on any winning teams? Besides, I don't think there is anything he does that Monta doesn't do better.
     
  3. huevonkiller

    huevonkiller Change (Deftones)

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    You're getting carried away there. Yes he's not a good defender, neither is Monta. They both have 112 defensive ratings.

    What should concern you is all the games he's missed over the past few years. But he's having a career season right now and Monta is not on his level this season. He's at almost 27 ppg per 36 minutes, 122 offensive rating on slightly more possessions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  4. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    No idea how defensive ratings work but despite all the crap we give Monta he does give some decent defensive efforts against the opposition's best player every so often. And we also ride him for going for steals so much but he does force a lot of TOs. Dunno if I've ever seen Martin make a defensive play. Monta is high risk defensively but at least he makes some positives and to his credit he is often defending the best players in the league.

    And I seriously think that at 6'3 Monta is the better rebounder. Hes shows a lot more toughness IMO. He certainly passes better. Monta is a career 48% on FGs, Martin is a career 45%. Martin is Maggette with a 3 pt shot and no rebounding. Even with all of Monta' warts I'd rather have him. The main point is that neither is a guy you can build a team around and as we've been discussing about Monta vs. Iggy, there are those whose impact is greater than the numbers show and those whose numbers are greater than their effect on winning. I think Martin is even more of a hollow stats kind of guy than Monta. IMO I'd rather have Monta (I'm extremely anti-Martin though) but its all moot because ultimately I want an Iggy type of player who stresses defense, team basketball, complete floor game, etc.
     
  5. huevonkiller

    huevonkiller Change (Deftones)

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    I get you about Iggy, but not this other stuff.

    Run, Monta had pretty hollow stats in 09-10. He qualifies more for a lot of the criticisms you throw out.

    http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192175&page=12


    The warriors have improved to +0.1 with him on the court this season. Martin is at +2.7 for comparison's sake.

    Apparently Monta is pretty high risk defensively, because so far he allows 114.1 points when he's on the court compared to 108.7 off. In comparison Martin only gives up 111.4 on to 109.7 off. Monta is more active on defense it seems, he has a superior steal rate. Although Kevin is actually the better rebounder.

    Well I don't want to focus on their careers either. Martin is having a career season, he might not have had much of an impact the past few seasons but he's on fire right now. Also please ditch "fg%", that's just absolutely awful for comparing players. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=fyynp

    Martin is easily more efficient at 63 TS% to Monta's 55.4% at the same amount of possessions. He's outscoring him per minute and if anything it seems Monta is getting more garbage buckets. Martin is in another class offensively, and Monta's possibly slightly better defense doesn't close the gap much.

    Corey Maggette also has no vision where at least Martin is OK. Maggette has a higher turnover rate than assist rate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  6. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    I was just tossing KevMart's name out there for discussion and comparison purposes. We have to replace Monta's scoring if we trade him, so I thought of KevMart, but I rather have Monta than KevMart. KevMart may be having a career year, but Monta is having a better one. I'm not so sure Iggy can replace the scoring even though he's an all around player and better defender than Ellis. He's not an all-star, but Gerald Wallace is. Still, Monta is three years younger than Wallace, so he has the potential to be a future all-star. He's having a better year than Wallace, too. If we're not trading for an all-star to go with David Lee, then it may be better to keep Monta just to see what he can do the next couple of years.
     
  7. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    If you watch Ellis play the games he gets so much run because he's a volume scorer. Like KevMart, he hurts the team when he doesn't score or takes ill advised shots like shots early in the clock. Ellis is worse than KevMart in that regards. It's frustrating to see Monta miss shot after shot and not get back. KevMart does the same thing when he's not hitting.

    Where they diverge is Monta leads the team in minutes. He's head and shoulders above KevMart in that regards and is the more durable of the two. I think KevMart's having a career year because he's back with a coach that likes him in Rick Adelman. Adelman's motion offense fits his game and he doesn't play him 35+ mins. You stick Martin back in Sacramento and he'll have a lot worse numbers and you'll see the same frustrating play when he shoots and misses. That said, Ellis has had more problems with Keith Smart's motion offense when compared to Don Nelson's run and gun offense. Ellis did his most "efficient" work under it and did it with players like Baron Davis and Stephen Jackson. The coach can lessen his minutes because of his deficiencies, but he may not be able to score in volume because one doesn't know when Monta is going to catch fire. Martin can just be as frustrating when he's missing. Monta's going to be a frustrating player, but if we're going to play run and gun, then he's the type of player that will excel in that situation.
     
  8. huevonkiller

    huevonkiller Change (Deftones)

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    Kevin has a more efficient playing style than Monta and Maggette, he is at a different level. He just needs to stay on the court. In Sac-town Kevin had a very similar production to this 2011 season, from 2006-2008, when he was also better than Monta Ellis. The Team change doesn't matter.

    Well Kevin is on the fifth fastest offense right now as well. If he stays on the court and if Monta doesn't get some new coaching, this isn't really a discussion. Hopefully they both continue to improve and stay healthy.
     
  9. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Rockets looking to trade Yao via Wojnarowski (EASILY the best NBA insider out there, the only guy whose rumors I trust):

    I'd jump all over trading Beans + expirings, picks, etc. for him. Obviously you get nothing from him this season but hes a massive 18 million expiring contract. We'd have a lot of money to play with this offseason and it seems like a perfect situation to give him a deal for maybe 2 years 14 mils or so? I cringe at the though of Abdenour getting his hands on Yao but we can wait 6 months and see how Yao's legs/feet situation is and decide whether or not to give him an offer. If not we'll have a lot of money in a FA market flush with options at center and probably still have room to add a starting SF or good bench players. Best case, Yao pans out and we get one of the best C's in the game even if we have to keep him in a limited role of 25 mpg and 60-65 games a year (until the playoffs). Worst case is we just move Beans and some assets for a major expiring which gives us the money to easily add a C. Perkins, Ty Chandler, Nene are UFAs as are Caron Butler, AK47, Glen Davis, Battier (did he sign an extension?), Tayshaun Prince, TJ Ford, Craig Smith, Turiaf, J-Rich, Przybilla, Landry, Dalembert, Barbosa, Josh Howard and keep in mind thats not even listing RFAs.
     
  10. Clif10

    Clif10 Member

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    I don't think Biedrins' contract is that bad, that it needs to be moved. I am not big on getting Yao, especially for Beans. He is 30 right now, and will be 31 next year when he can play. That's kind of old. I may consider something for someone like Oden instead. At least he is still young. But then again, nothing major for him unless if it's a February deal where the Warriors are out of the playoff hunt and there are some other assets involved perhaps.
     
  11. i hate the warriors

    i hate the warriors Slingboxing from LONDON

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    Most of these potential Monta trades would horrify me...however, I'd be open to an Iggy trade. Interested to watch the game tonight and get a good look at him. Also, I would not be happy about Andris for Yao. In my opinion, there are many more important areas we need to address regarding this team before we commit our energy to upgrading Monta. If a beneficial deal presents itself, then yeah.
     
  12. i hate the warriors

    i hate the warriors Slingboxing from LONDON

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    scratch that, Iguodala isn't playing...good for the warriors, but i was looking forward to watching him with a new perspective.
     
  13. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I'll make a game thread for this game. Looks like I'll be home to watch it for once.
     
  14. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Ellis wins player of the week in the Western Conference.

    I personally think the guy is a stud. Defense is a team thing; if the whole team played team defense, he'd look a lot better to you guys.
     
  15. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Nope. Monta is the more efficient player than Kevin. His "style" doesn't have much to do with it, but I would say Kevin's style would be more suited to the motion offense while Monta would do better in the run and gun. I'm not sure where you're getting this different level stuff. That per 36 min stat is ridiculous because Kevin isn't close. Monta is doing better than Kevin this year. Period. Kevin can't get the minutes. The only area I like Kevin better is the free throw line. He "gets" to the line easier and gets a lot of his points there while Monta needs to shoot better at the line. Run BJM mentioned playoff basketball and there Monta would do better than KevMart. KevMart had his games in Sacramento when he was on the court, but he also had those scoring droughts that killed the team.
     
  16. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    AB for AB -- Andrew Bogut. I doubt the Bucks do it, but who knows. If only he could take the pounding of the run and gun...
     
  17. i hate the warriors

    i hate the warriors Slingboxing from LONDON

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    Yeah, that is another one I'd be open to. I'm way more into trading AB than Monta. Such a shame too, cuz I have always been a big Biedrins fan. But Udoh's looking like he could start in place of Biedrins right now with not much of a fall off. That's obviously tough to say for sure, since Udoh has never got big minutes, but it couldn't be THAT different. He's already arguably better on offense than Biedrins, and defense actually. It's just a matter of rebounding.
     
  18. Clif10

    Clif10 Member

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    Yeah, unlike Biedrins, Udoh is able to block/alter shots without committing fouls which is pretty important. It's good to have Udoh backup Lee and Biedrins this season, that is if Udoh does not eventually steal the starting spot from Andris.
     
  19. huevonkiller

    huevonkiller Change (Deftones)

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    Your argument is based off the last week I guess. Monta is an inferior scorer, in fact Kevin Martin is better than Kobe offensively this year, his defense is pretty bad though. In this instance Monta's defense is so bad it doesn't matter.

    Well certainly you are confused, because you're mixing up durability with efficiency. There's nothing about Monta's style that says efficient, but he does stay on the court more.

    Yeah style does have to do it when you draw more free throws and hit 3 pointers at a higher rate. Kevin's style is superior to Monta's through 30 games. I guess if Monta gets very hot the rest of the year I'll revise these thoughts. Monta is on the fourth fastest offense and Kevin is on the fifth. Your argument is pretty bad. http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=0&p1=martike02&y1=2011&p2=ellismo01&y2=2011

    As you can see Monta is barely outscoring Martin even while playing 9 more minutes a game, and he does it inefficiently in comparison (7% less efficiently). Martin is a better rebounder, and monta doesn't average 10 assists in a slow offense like Chris Paul either.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2010
  20. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

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    You actually think KevMart is a better player? Martin needs help getting his shots. Monta doesn't. Throw stats away and just watch the 2 play. Monta's been doing it without much of any help this season. Houston is a team that was put together to run a system and Kevin Martin fits within that system. The Warriors are a bunch of leftovers and a few talented players playing under a rookie coach, fighting through key injuries.
     

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