Trade Scenarios?

I completely disagree. Fisher is the core of our problems. HE killed us defensively nearly forcing us to play 4 on 5 trying to compensate for his inability to stay with his man. And he would constantly sag off his man into the paint giving his man uncontested wide open shots.

I dont care whether he is a point guard or a shooting guard he sucks at both. He is a poor man's damon jones at best. He can't handle the ball, he cant create his own shot, but somewhere in his head he thinks he can do all these things ruining any offensive flow we have with his poor shot selection, holding the ball with his bad handles and failure to see the court and what is happening . He is a spot up shooter with very little value.

ANd dont even get me started with his so called veteran presence. He has been in the league ten years and makes mroe dumb errors than the rookies. CAse in point how we closed out the season with the moron fisher fouling while the entire stadium, players and coaches were screaming "dont foul."

His contract kills us. BUt his play on the court is what really kills us. If fisher is on our roster next season it will be yet another year without playoffs.

IF taking on Mihm and switching draft picks is all it takes to get rid of him we should jump at the chance. Mihm for fisher is a no brainer and let's face it.... no matter what draft pick we get or select they will have close to no impact next season. AS other teams play rookies and see what they got our idiotic management coddles and protects its rookies giving them little to no playing time until the season is over and playing our scrap crap vets like fisher when Ellis should have been getting those minutes.

The formula is simple ...we can improve ten games or more by getting rid of fisher. Addition by subtraction.....

There is not a team in the league fisher could start on. Neither position shooting or point guard, in fact, if you look throughout the league fisher most likely would be the back ups back up on most teams.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mister Jennings:</div><div class="quote_post">I totally agree about Fisher, he is the least of our problems. The guy had a great year, people just have to realize he is not a point guard.

Front court defense, and running smart plays in the 4th are the problems.</div>

Definitely, Mr. Keith Jennings.

The thing that I'm confused about is Fisher actually trying to do what the coach wants him to do? I think all these poor plays where the ball doesn't move or bad shots are taken means that the point guard isn't following the plan. But then again, I think it's either a combo of the point guards not really carrying out the game plan because the other guys aren't dependable i.e. Foyle catching inside/Murphy floating behind the arc/Dunleavy missing wide open shots or maybe it's the team that doesn't know what the point guard is doing when he's holding his hand signal up (i.e. Pietrus + the rookies).

It's hard to get practices in an 82 game season and the Warriors need to practice their execution so they don't walk it all slow. Their movement off the ball doesn't fool anyone and I think it's because they're not moving swiftly or concisely with one another due to the fact they don't know the plays, don't feel comfortable with it, or they aren't very fast or aggressive, or they're not setting very good screens or picks or making good passes or arriving in the passing lanes at the precise moments. The Warriors can't run the ball every single time unless Baron is healthy and shooting it well. The Warriors can't run the ball if the Warriors outside shooting and ability to create offense never improves. So the only alternative to score when teams slow us down is to execute and play smart for once. All good teams execute plays because it gets the other team's feet moving. We can't just run out and expect everything to magically go in the hoop and run it again the same way hoping the other team will miss every single time just because we do. That's how teams go on monster runs against us and we end up wasting our timeouts.

I completely insist that the Warriors inability to make the playoffs for more than a decade has more to do with its roster and its front office decisions than its coaching. Everytime we've changed coaching nothing has improved for the long term. The cycle has to stop and it's time to hold general management and the ownership decisions accountable for the players they decide to role with.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting boogielew:</div><div class="quote_post">I completely disagree. Fisher is the core of our problems. HE killed us defensively nearly forcing us to play 4 on 5 trying to compensate for his inability to stay with his man. And he would constantly sag off his man into the paint giving his man uncontested wide open shots.

I dont care whether he is a point guard or a shooting guard he sucks at both. He is a poor man's damon jones at best. He can't handle the ball, he cant create his own shot, but somewhere in his head he thinks he can do all these things ruining any offensive flow we have with his poor shot selection, holding the ball with his bad handles and failure to see the court and what is happening . He is a spot up shooter with very little value.

ANd dont even get me started with his so called veteran presence. He has been in the league ten years and makes mroe dumb errors than the rookies. CAse in point how we closed out the season with the moron fisher fouling while the entire stadium, players and coaches were screaming "dont foul."

His contract kills us. BUt his play on the court is what really kills us. If fisher is on our roster next season it will be yet another year without playoffs.

IF taking on Mihm and switching draft picks is all it takes to get rid of him we should jump at the chance. Mihm for fisher is a no brainer and let's face it.... no matter what draft pick we get or select they will have close to no impact next season. AS other teams play rookies and see what they got our idiotic management coddles and protects its rookies giving them little to no playing time until the season is over and playing our scrap crap vets like fisher when Ellis should have been getting those minutes.

The formula is simple ...we can improve ten games or more by getting rid of fisher. Addition by subtraction.....

There is not a team in the league fisher could start on. Neither position shooting or point guard, in fact, if you look throughout the league fisher most likely would be the back ups back up on most teams.</div>
I both agree and disagree Boogielew.

Fisher can be an offensive and defensive cancer like Baron Davis, but let's not forget if you turn this guy into a catch and shoot role player, he's awesome. Plus, when the guy you hate happens to be the team's best free throw shooter and he's tons better than Dunleavy at hitting the open J, it tells you something about the rest of the team. I'm sorry I used the word "team". LOL.

I agree our vets are terrible for their roles they are required to play. But this is what happens when Baron is injured and can't shoot very well when healthy and we've got career backup and barely-a-basketball player Adonal Foyle as starting center. Plus, Dunleavy, Pietrus and Zarko has sucked more than usual this season despite getting the easiest looks of the games they've played. That's a really bad combo because we basically repeat the 2004-2005 season with Fisher/Foyle as starters. Plus, let's not get ahead of ourselves and pretend we know more about the rookies than the coaching staff and the GM do just by watching them on TV or at the arena. I've seen some of Ellis' and Ike's flaws and I prefer if they play the game in limited minutes to start out rather than big minutes. The reason is two fold. One, you get the guys signed with five year deals to improve their stats so you can ship them out easier rather than putting them on the end of the bench. Two, there's more to developing a rookie basketball player than we can imagine. When a player is in a game decisionmaking and teamwork has to be instinctive and he has to be confident. When a player has to think about everything he does in all these situations he becomes hesistant. Also, every little mistake can't be pointed out all at once. This was why we couldn't even make the playoffs with Arenas/Jamison/Richardson/Murphy/Dampier because it was too young of a team and they made too many mistakes as a team. (Also they couldn't play D).

If we get a vet team that doesn't play as bad as Foyle at starting center or Fisher as playmaker and makes fewer mistakes as a team, we can afford to play a guy like Ellis or a guy like Ike. But there's too many rookies on this team that don't know how to play as a team. They don't know organized play. It also helps if we had a vet coach so the coaching wouldn't be called into question. If we had Larry Brown, it would be the same outcome like with the New York Knicks. Just not enough of the right vet talent at the right spots to function as a cohesive unit. If we put Ellis at starter, and maybe four good veterans that can play both ends of the floor/pass/shoot, I think we could get away with that just so long as the shooting guard and power forward can create some offense for the point guard. We're just too damn reliant upon the point guard and dribble penetration to do everything for us on offense... When we can't get inside off quickness or execute plays, we just chuck threes... Also, guys like Zarko, Pietrus or Dunleavy have some bad shooting games and they become tentative for the rest of the game and disappear. Not good. Especially because those three were important role players on the team last season when they were bombing threes and getting inside.

Also our center/power forward depth... That's our big problem right there. Interior presence doesn't create anything for us and our guards/wings don't create much for us. We dont' run plays, we can't shoot, and we don't play defense. We're a low % team on the offensive end and we give up high % points to the other team off layups and dunks and wide open perimeter shots. This team doesn't have the inside-outside threats, thus the passing suffers, the whole offensive game suffers, and we can't even score when we're alone at the free throw line. Plus, we don't have the type of inside guys to play a motion game or individual defense to play a man-to-man defense. Damnit... I said "team" again. The warriors ain't a team!

Here's to hoping Mullin makes a blockbuster move that actually improves the team rather than just stopping at Baron Davis.

 

Fish is a good catch-n-shoot undesized 2 guard, but he hardly does that. Granted, we have had PG injury problems, but Monty insists on playing Fish 30+ minutes a night at point, and Fisher simply tarnishes the good game of basketball when at the point. I'll try to avoid a diatribe about how he makes more fundamental basketball errors -- these are middle school, high school things that even your local prep team does clean in their sleep -- he proves his fundamental lack of understanding of the game -- he gives us concrete evidence of his ineptitude, simply in the way he destroys an offensive fastbreak or makes a "no-no" cross court one-handed pass, things that any other competent point guard in the league--even the unorthodox Jason Williams or the flashy and-1 Allen Iverson -- would never do.

The problem I see is that, on this team, Monty will always try to play Fish at an unnatural position, that of the point. And that will prevent this team from having any shot at the playoffs. Ever.

Will Bynum is, right now, a smarter, more accomplished point guard than Fisher will ever be.

Further, the position Fish can play -- an undersized 2 guard -- is, on my roster, already taken by Monta Ellis.

Therefore, the only role I see for Fisher on this team is a back-up veteran role-player and free throw shooter, ala Calbert Cheaney. The problem is, Fisher is locked into a long-term, starter's contract.

If he made what Cheaney makes -- 1.5 million -- oh well then terrific!! keep him around for the next 4 years. But, no, he's in an escalating contract that will go from 5.4 million on up to roughly 7.5 million. That's --oh gawd I'm going to be sick -- way too much for a backup.

Fisher is a decent back-up role player. It's a shame Mullin didn't pay him like one.

We could live with one bad contract, swallow it and wait for it to expire. But Mullin also signed Foyle to a big-man's full-ride $$$$$ and he also gave starter's cash to Dun Dun. When he made the signings, it created a good vibe around here, everyone sitting back fat and smiling, raking in the dough. It was supposed to create a "core" of long term players, "locked in," to turn this thing around. It was a cute notion, and refreshing in this day and age of players switching teams every 2 years. It was nice to think we'd have a "core" group of guys here for years to come.

The problem is, IMHO, Mullin succumbed to that "rookie" pressure and didn't hold out and play it like a cut-throat business. He should have been willing to rock the boat.

Now, we have a wonderful, marketable "family" of "good-natured" players that is perfect for a family's "great night out" at the arena -- I mean these guys are the kings of charitable events (which, despite my rants I do indeed deeply respect) -- but Foyle, Fisher, Dunleavy, and arguably Murphy, are, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION -- way overpaid for what they bring, and until we find a way to jettison one or two, and free up some cap space to sign some players worthy of the money (hopefully our own prospects of Ike, Monta, and Beans) this team will not be contending for the playoffs.

 

Agreed.

But... Jrich x 2 would put less pressure on Fisher to try and do too much. When we badly needed outside scoring because that's all there was being given, Fish came through. He's not a creative player and that's a given. The problem is the team couldn't execute off the ball or they didn't have enough weapons to get him open unless we played the small lineup with dribble penetration and kept the ball away from Fisher (i.e. let Dunleavy run point). But see, I hold guys like Dunleavy not stepping up like a 2nd/3rd option scorer and Foyle and other guys not having the inside play, more accountable. When guys suck this bad I feel bad for the rookies having to be pressured to come in next year, learn the game faster than Jrich or Murphy has, with all this weight to get this franchise afloat again.

But Foyle is downright the worst player this team has had. He is probably the most one-dimensional guy on our team that can't do anything anymore. He only blocks shots... That's it. He tries hard in doing other stuff that doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but he's primarily a shotblocker and not a scrappy guy like Najera that can play ferocious without getting out of control and comitting stupid fouls. He's not like PJ Brown on setting tough screens. He's not like Kurt Thomas guarding the post. He's not even as good of a catcher as Kwame Brown or Erick Dampier. Plus, when he takes a layup or dunk or a shot, you can be guaranteed a moment for laughter and tears. I laugh with joy because he actually caught a pass right to his hands. Then I laugh when he misses a wide open dunk attempt on a seal-off and then I cry because I remember he's on our team. F#$3k! I also cry everytime I read his post-game comments or his stuff from last year... especially about his "dipstick" comment. He's a dipstick.

 

I think I remember him trying to justify his contract to a reporter once - something about how there's a premium on big men in this league, and that's the going rate in the current market, and whatnot. It sounded really nice with the Carribean accent and the eloquent delivery and all.

 

He's probably the only NBA player to be on CSPAN...

 

It's a shame he's in the NBA, when he could be so successful as a diplomat or politician. This is definately a case of a guy missing his calling.

 

AGain i have to disagree with you.

Fisher is by far the worst player this franchise has ever had.

On the defensive end at least Foyle can block shots and on given nights protect the basket. Yes he is hugely over paid, but at least he gives us some contribution on the defensive end and is not a complete liability defensively.

Fisher on the other hand gives us nothing on the defensive end. His lack of effort is sickening as he spends half his time with his hands on his hips lost in the paint in no mans land. There is not a point guard in the league that he can guard as everyone blows by him. But what makes that worse is unlike Ellis or other players who fight through picks or even if their man beats them off the dribble they make a second effort following the guy trying to get a block or steal. Fisher, after he gets beat quits on the play and becomes a spectator. He constantly sags off his man, then slowly on flat feet walks at his man to close, he never closes and gets burned letting his man bury open shots. Another thing Fisher does for no reason, when he is lost in the paint sagging way off his man he will suddenly start guarding someone else's man. He constantly forces our defense to compensate for the man he is guarding, forcing us to play 4 on 5 most times.

Foyle hustles after rebounds and can get boards though inconsistently.When have you ever seen fisher box out a man. He is always standing in the paint watching, not doing. He could just as easily box a man out instead of just getting in the way or hoping for a ball to get tapped out.

Offensive end. Foyle has no hands, no post game and cant shoot.
He embarrasses himself on lay ups.

Fisher on the offensive end averages 2 air balls a game, one of those is a layup air ball. HAve you ever seen a player more afraid of contact or getting his shot blocked than fisher. He is the worst player i have ever seen going to the hole. He can't make a lay up.

neither player has an off hand, but fisher should be able to use his right you would think.

Both players have no handles.

Both players have no vision of the court.

Both players have limited offensive skills.

But here is what separates fisher further as the worst player on the team. His offensive skills, his disgustingly poor shot selection, poor decision making, lack of movement, lack of intelligence or basketball IQ are apparent, but fisher has the ball in his hands more than foyle so his impact on the game is much larger. ANd each game he has a huge negative impact both defensively and offensively.

They are both highly overpaid liabilities, but at least foyle brings something positive on the defensive end. Fisher, on the other hand does nothing for us defensively but act as a liability. The ability to spot up, i say big deal, we can get 100 players to fill this role. So that negates any value for our team. He brings no veteran presence as he was supposed to give us, in fact making high school errors and in fact putting an exclamation point on it with the moronic foul at the end of the season.

I will take Foyle's blocks and limited ability anyday, as we can stash him on the bench and hide him til we need him. Of course i would like to see him traded, but only his contract really hurts us, not the player.

Fisher kills us with his play on the court. We will never smell the play offs with the liaibility getting minutes for us. And his contract kills us. He brings very little offensively and nothing defensively.... the negatives far out weight any small positive he brings.

I am so sick of hearing how clutch he is? How many times has he cost us putting us in a position to lose .... or have the need for a clutch shot. J-rich is clutch. Dunleavy has hit clutch shots too. Baron as well.

 

Well, there's someone that may want MP and Murphy.

I know, I know, it's Sam Smith but it's just a fun post. Who would you want from Chicago? I'd want Luol Deng or Ben Gordon or both.

"Separately, I have noticed that international players like Nocioni, Brezec and Diaw need a year or two to acclimate to the NBA. I am curious if you agree with this observation. Do you have any thoughts on another international player who is on the verge of a breakout as they are maturing? Perhaps Mickael Pietrus falls into this hidden gem category for the Bulls to consider though I have seen less of him than I have Peterson. --Peter, San Francisco

That's my guy, Pietrus. I think he's been underutilized in Golden State and never can get a chance with all the perimeter gunners they have. I've mentioned dealing for Jason Richardson, but I think the price will be too steep. I'd make a run at Pietrus. The Bulls considered him in the Hinrich draft for his defense and while he's not a great shooter, I think he could improve. The Raptors are unlikely to deal Peterson, whom I think would be good, but I think you can put together something for Pietrus. The Warriors probably would like to dump some salaries and I think the Bulls could go for a package with Troy Murphy, whom they've had interest in over the years. "

 

If Fisher is our starting PG and we do not have Davis, I would definitely agree that Fisher would have been our biggest problem. But the good news is that we have Davis and if you put Fisher to back up SG, as we often did with Davis, he really can be a good player because Davis can cover Fisher's weakness. Fisher can catch and shoot the ball the best, he is agressive, and we do not have to see him trying to 'play' PG role and make a horrendous decisions. And, since Davis will handle the ball, we do not have to see him Fisher trying to be a hero by dribbling toward 5 defenders in crunch time. Fisher's defense is 99% reaching in, and I have to say he is pretty good at stripping the ball. That's why half of times, he comes with steal and half of times, he makes dumb fouls in crucial mins.

But, if everybody are healthy, our biggest problem is by far our inside both offensively and defensively. Because we do not have any inside presence, we are forced to shoot from outside. Even Diogu is struggling to play inside due to his height, and at the end of the season, his midrange jumper was actually more reliable than his inside scoring. That's why our pg% was 43.3%, 28th in the league and 3 pts pg% was 22th, 34%, and that didn't stop us from shooting 22.3 3 pts attempts, 2nd in the league. Our offense is extremely flawed, and if we plan to go anywhere, we should either get a legit big man, draft one or Diogu needs to improve his post moves and become a reliable ones like Barkley or Brand (and starting at PF). If not, we will be in big trouble.

Same goes with defense. Our defense is 20th, 45.7% opp. shooting %. 18th at blocking, 9th at steal and 4th at causing TO, meaning our guards are doing fine job at stealing and causing TOs (Davis 1.65 stl, Fisher 1.52 stl, Richardson 1.29 stl, and in 48 mins scale, Monta with better steal ratio than Richardson), but our inside isn't providing much of defense. That's one of the main reason why our defense is at the bottom tier.

For rebounding, both Davis (3rd in PG) and Richardson (6th in SG) are excellent rebounders for their positions. However, our rebounding difference is -2.2, 24th in the league, and that's actually an improvement from before, where our difference was nearly -5. It actually would be a tricky one to fix. Our biggest problem with rebounding is that both Dunleavy (17th in SF) and Foyle (23th in C) are bad rebounders, while Murphy always has been an excellent rebounder (5th in PF, 6th overall). Ideally, we do want to see an improvement from both SF and Center, but both Dunleavy and Foyle are our two biggest deadweight, hence it would be extremely hard to trade them. So, even if we trade Murphy, we won't see much of improvement in rebound and there is a good chance that our rebound would actually suffer. And, it's not like we can get any better reboudnings from Davis or Richarson either.

I am all for trading Fisher and leave that job to Monta. However, our biggest problem at this point must be our dismal inside...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jason voorhees:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, there's someone that may want MP and Murphy.

I know, I know, it's Sam Smith but it's just a fun post. Who would you want from Chicago? I'd want Luol Deng or Ben Gordon or both.

"Separately, I have noticed that international players like Nocioni, Brezec and Diaw need a year or two to acclimate to the NBA. I am curious if you agree with this observation. Do you have any thoughts on another international player who is on the verge of a breakout as they are maturing? Perhaps Mickael Pietrus falls into this hidden gem category for the Bulls to consider though I have seen less of him than I have Peterson. --Peter, San Francisco

That's my guy, Pietrus. I think he's been underutilized in Golden State and never can get a chance with all the perimeter gunners they have. I've mentioned dealing for Jason Richardson, but I think the price will be too steep. I'd make a run at Pietrus. The Bulls considered him in the Hinrich draft for his defense and while he's not a great shooter, I think he could improve. The Raptors are unlikely to deal Peterson, whom I think would be good, but I think you can put together something for Pietrus. The Warriors probably would like to dump some salaries and I think the Bulls could go for a package with Troy Murphy, whom they've had interest in over the years. "</div>

All the following would be good players: Chandler, Deng, Duhon. Hinrich and Gordon would be great but Gordon is a starting 2 guard and with JRich there, that would only make him cry. Hinrich is solid but Chicago is in love with him.

 

i would take chandler for murphy and MP in a heartbeat. We need a center and he would be there to help us

 

I certainly won't touch Chandler. For starter, he is a glofied version of Foyle, who gets 11 mils per year with little better production than Foyle (5 pts/9 reb/ 1.35 blk). He has been in the league for 5 years, and he has no offense to speak of. I do realize Chandler's huge potential, but it is not certain that he will be tap his potential in the future since he showed little improvement ever since he was drafted. Heck, you can make a good case that Chandler may be a bigger bust than Brown. Compare to that at least Murphy produces and put up numbers. Bottom line is that if we ever take another gigantic deadweight contract like Foyle or Dunleavy, we simply can't go on, and that's way too much risk to take...

 

Chandler's too small to be a real center as well and it's not like he's channeling Theo Ratliff's or Marcus Camby's offensive game. If he's got an 18 footer like those guys do (well not so much Ratliff... because his jumper is just plain ugly) maybe he'd be okay. He's basically a defensive role player and I bet Biedrins can be sort of like him... I'm agreeing with Kwan here that he's way overpaid for what he does, just like Kenyon Martin and he's got very little offensive game as well. In fact he owes his career to Jason Kidd. Maybe his injuries have been holding him back, but he's no max player or no real all-star in my eyes.

 

maybe u guys are right about chandler. I wonder how taft would turn out if we gave him time and he got healthy. He could be like a ben wallace because he's taller or same size but if he got bulky i think he would be pretty good. He already proved himself somewhat that he can play a little D better than murphy.

 

I disagree about Chandler - In the same minutes per game last year he grabbed 9 borards compared to Foyle's 5.5.

Chandler's 7'1" -- Foyle is barely flirting with 6'10"

He shot 57% FG from the floor last year -- granted, all dunks and tip-ins, but do you really want your center jacking up 16' jump shots?

Now, I do think Chandler underachieved, obviously, given the big conrtact. But he's still only 24 -- that's 7 years younger than Foyle. In my opinion he still has a lot of room for growth and when it's all said and done could probably be a career 10 & 10 guy. I'd much rather have Chandler over Foyle, any day.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AlleyOop:</div><div class="quote_post">I'd much rather have Chandler over Foyle, any day.</div>

Theres no argument there, it's just his contract is ginormous.

 

First, we are not talking about Foyle for Chandler swap. We are talking about Chandler for Murphy and Pietrus. Also, even if we are talking about Foyle for Chandler swap, I would hesitate to pull that trigger, because Chandler's contract is about twice as big as Foyle's.

I do not disagree that Chandler has very good potential, and he may be a double-double guy in the future. But then, he didn't improve much every since he came from the league 5 years. So, there is equal chance that he may be a bust. If we have Cuban as an owner, I would think about getting Chandler, because he is a high reward/high risk type of player. Unfortunately, we have a normal owner like 80% in NBA, and we are already carrying two anchers names Dunleavy and Foyle, which will stay with us for long, long time. We simply cannot carry yet another potential 11 mils per year ancher, and if Chandler ever become a bust, we will waste nearly 30 mils. That's a risk we simply cannot take at this piont...