Zombie Trading CJ

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by mook, Dec 23, 2015.

?

Portland trades CJ in the next calendar year

  1. Yep

    20 vote(s)
    22.5%
  2. Nope

    69 vote(s)
    77.5%
  1. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    No, because having one spot up while the other attacks would be deadly.. Balance is overrated. Get the most talent you can, and develop the players to fit alongside one another.

    The only problem is when the only way players can be successful is if they have the ball (I don't think that applies to CJ or Dame). Rondo+Gay+Cousins or Lawson+Harden type deal. Hell, the Clippers suck because Rivers, Crawford, Stephenson, and Smith all suck at playing off the ball
     
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  2. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    You do understand what irony is, right?

    Yes and yes. Lillard has improved to the point of being slightly above awful. CJ is pretty bad, but not as bad as Dame. Their defensive suckiness as a back court tandem is epic.

    That was sort of my point...
     
  3. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    So you used irony in a way to agree with one post while indirectly disagreeing with another post all in the same sentence. Haha

    Lillard is an average defender, but people love to look at points scored by the opposing PG and chalk it up to Dame, when in reality, a lot of it is due to our BS pick n roll scheme that we never change in any circumstance. Have you noticed that only certain types of PGs burn us, and theyre always great at mid range pullups? Dragic, Udrih, Burke, Jackson (at least in the one meeting this year).. That's because we give up that mid range jumper as a team out of pick n rolls, not because of Dame.

    And CJ is pretty bad? Based on...?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
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  4. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    He's referring to the defensive half of the game. Besides being undersized (& not very good) at guarding 2s, CJ extremely undersized on defensive switches onto SFs & those happen all the time. Good defensive teams (like the Warriors) have swing players who can guard multiple positions well. Take off the homer glasses, this is obvious

    STOMP
     
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  5. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    That's what I meant. And that just means you always matchup CJ with a PG/SG. That's simple. If he does end up in a bigger SF that can actually take advantage then you double and rotate. And he's maybe an inch shorter than your average SG, which isn't a big deal.

    McCollum, Bradley Beal, Victor Olidipo, Eric Gordon, Dwayne Wade, James Harden, JJ Redick, Monta Ellis and Wesley Matthews are all 6'4 or 6'5...
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
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  6. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    Hell, so is Arron Afflalo, Caldwell-Pope, Courtney Lee, Marco Bellinelli, Iman Shumpert, and Jordan Clarkson. That's half of the starting SGs in the NBA within an inch of CJs height and you're gonna tell me his height is a problem?
     
  7. 0-Our!

    0-Our! Noob-ish

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    Not so much height (in most cases actually but certain matchups) but wingspan (& IMO stamina & speed + more strength would also help out a lot but not if it sacrificed speed).

    Just real quick wingspans: KCP= 6'8", Tony Allen= 6'9", Olidipo= 6'9.25" & Cj= 6'6.25" Losing inches here of course does matter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
  8. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    bingo! If you're having to regularly double team to help out a player, especially a wing, he's a bad defender... it's that simple. Lol at you listing Ellis as he's the poster child of undersized/poor defending Scoring Guards.

    it's not his listed/pretend size thats an issue, it's his actual size. Guys can list themselves at whatever height they choose, but tape doesn't lie. I'd suggest you familiarize yourself with the NBA pre-draft measurements.

    As O-Our! just started touching on, you don't play ball with the top of your head so make sure to look at wingspan and standing reach. Just for reference, Dame's wingspan and standing reach measurements were 6'7.75 & 7'11.5 while CJ's were 6'6.25 & 8'0.5... he's PG sized

    STOMP
     
  9. BlazerCaravan

    BlazerCaravan Hug a Bigot... to Death

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    It's a tough question to ask, because there's no way the Blazers win politically by trading Dame. But Olshey traded both his backcourt guys for stars a few years back, so it's not like it hasn't been done.
     
  10. Fez Hammersticks

    Fez Hammersticks スーパーバッド Zero Cool

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    Philly seems like a good trading partner.

    Especially with Colangelo showing his hand a bit and willing to stray from Hinkie's path.

    The player I'd poach is Dario Saric. But unfortunately we aren't in position to do this - he may or may not come over next season. A super talent though. My favorite prospect in that draft.

    Noel's upside doesn't come close to the hype he came in with. He may turn into a Tyson Chandler - in a few years. Right now he's Ed Davis who shoots sub-50%.
     
  11. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Between CJ and Dame, who is the better point guard?

    I think Dame is the superior point guard. I think CJ is clearly a shooting guard, which makes him expendable because I do not think CJ is a long term fit at point.
     
  12. julius

    julius I wonder if there's beer on the sun Staff Member Global Moderator

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    CJ should be the 6th man, ala Jason Terry.

    Depends on who they draft I guess.
     
  13. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    I agree with whoever said that we might be past the point of relegating CJ to the bench.
     
  14. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    Still waiting on that answer. I also keep waiting for shooting guards to abuse CJ because of his height, taking him into the paint and scoring over him at will. Or even shooting over him on the perimeter. And most games what I see is CJ with his short little wing span taking bigger players into the paint and scoring at will, or stopping on a dime and hitting a mid range shot.

    I agree that a player's wing span is important, but the court is 94' long and 50' wide. A player's quickness, change of speed, various moves are also huge factors. Was Wes a decent defender? I think he was yet there were plenty of games that a SG went off on him
    and had a big game. You can say that about most players.

    I think a few of you are looking for MJ to walk through through the door. Most players who are really good scorers are not really good defenders. Not for 35 minutes a game. CJ is not a great defender, but watching him closely this season, I just don't think he is "pretty bad".

    A back court of Dame and CJ has the potential to be extremely potent for many years. Regardless if CJ starts or comes of the bench, both he and Dame will still be playing around 33-35 minutes a game. Chemistry on the court and off the court is also important, and they seem to have it. I would build around them.
     
  15. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Really dislike this narrative. Having CJ and Dame on the floor at the same time is a matchup advantage we have to exploit, not minimize. Just because it's different from conventional lineups seen throughout the league doesn't mean we have to follow what'sbeen done before.

    These are two guys that defenses can't guard with single coverage. Having to double team two perimeter players opens up a massive advantage inside. We have no semblance of post players yet to take advantage. Wait until that happens.

    The deficiencies on defense can easily be covered up by better schemes, a versatile SF and a rim protector. Perhaps we shoud try to find those guys instead of trying to break apart the two legit NBA players we do have on the roster?
     
  16. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    The thing CJ and Dame have trouble with is fighting through screens. In that sense, it would be nicer to have a longer and stronger player. But this is only a big issue because of the "ICE" defense that Portland runs. If our bigs hedged more on screens this wouldn't be as big of an issue. That will never happen under Terry's defense, but Terry might not be the coach in a few years.

    Other than that, I haven't really seen CJ get abused by other defenders.
     
  17. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    It's really funny, because before this year it was always "we need another playmaker alongside Dame to take the pressure off Dame. Wes and Nic can't create enough offense when other teams commit to doubling Dame on the perimeter".

    Well, now we have that second playmaker, but we can't play him next to Dame because he's too short!

    I think it's stupid. It's always going to be something, you're not going to be able to have your cake and eat it too. You work with what you have and maximize what you've got.
     
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  18. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    I wish we had Kerr... but maybe Luke Walton would work?
     
  19. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Exactly. I'd like to see Jason Terry do what CJ is able to do. (Even from ATL days).
     
  20. handiman

    handiman Well-Known Member

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    Huh? The irony was that at any other point in Lillard's career, your comment about him being healthy would have been an ironclad point.

    I totally agree that the general public would be a tough sell, but I don't get the emotional attachment by diehard Blazer fans here.

    Height/length/strength/stamina has little to nothing to do with CJ/Dame's defensive shortcomings, no pun intended. Their glaring weakness is that neither can move his feet well enough to keep his guy in front of him. Hardly anyone posts up these days, it's all drive and kick. Our defense is easy to crack because any perimeter player can get to the hoop at will. You can cover for one such player, not two.
     

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