U lost out on the Kobe sweepstakes, details here to enter the Vince sweepstakes

You say Vince is about to go for little or nothing, but Antonio Davis is MVP caliber? I wouldn't trade the rest of my sandwhich for Antonio Davis. His All-Star days are way behind him. Even during that one single all-star year he only made the team because of the weak selection of Eastern Centers.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">*sigh* please get your facts straight before making an arguement: Manu wasn't even in the league 2001-2002 season, Parker was a rookie and put up 9.2 PPG and 4.3 APG. And what did Stephen Jackson do that season? 3.9 PPG 0.5 APG 1.1 RPG

Basically this shows me again that you have little or no basketball knowledge whatsoever and really no credibilty.</div>

okay manu wasn't in the league. although, parker was an impact rookie, stephen jackson was a clutch playoff performer while david robinson and malik rose consolidated arguably the best frontcourt in the nba that season.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">You say Vince is about to go for little or nothing, but Antonio Davis is MVP caliber? I wouldn't trade the rest of my sandwhich for Antonio Davis. His All-Star days are way behind him. Even during that one single all-star year he only made the team because of the weak selection of Eastern Centers.</div>

of course ad's skills have declined dramatically, not denying that. however, to be historically accurate ad had a dominant 2001-02 season, i'm standing by statement that he was deserving of mvp consideration. u really had to be in toronto to appreciate that 14 game run to finish off the season.

 

That's because the hype gets to your head.

What did they lose before that run to make the playoffs, something like 17 in a row?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">however, to be historically accurate ad had a dominant 2001-02 season, i'm standing by statement that he was deserving of mvp consideration. </div>

No way was he an MVP candidate. He didn't even make the third team. I may not be remembering it correctly, but was he even voted onto the All-Star team originally or did he just get the invite because someone else was injured? I'll have to check up on that. Anyway, the Eastern All-Star team has low standards for Centers. Look at some of the recent centers. Dale Davis? Antonio Davs? Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Jamal Magloire? Not one of those guys would have been All-Stars in the West. It's kind of like how Steve Francis started at point guard for the West this year but wouldn't make the Eastern All-Star team. Anyway, bottom line is that he was not one of the top twenty players that year. He might have been dominant compared to the average center, but he wasn't one of the game's most dominant players.

EDIT:

Indeed Davis was only on the team as a injury replacement. He was replacing the better Theo Ratliff who was injured right before the All-Star game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">No way was he an MVP candidate. He didn't even make the third team. I may not be remembering it correctly, but was he even voted onto the All-Star team originally or did he just get the invite because someone else was injured? I'll have to check up on that. Anyway, the Eastern All-Star team has low standards for Centers. Look at some of the recent centers. Dale Davis? Antonio Davs? Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Jamal Magloire? Not one of those guys would have been All-Stars in the West. It's kind of like how Steve Francis started at point guard for the West this year but wouldn't make the Eastern All-Star team. Anyway, bottom line is that he was not one of the top twenty players that year. He might have been dominant compared to the average center, but he wasn't one of the game's most dominant players.

EDIT:

Indeed Davis was only on the team as a injury replacement. He was replacing the better Theo Ratliff who was injured right before the All-Star game.</div>


pop quiz, hot shot moderator, its the 2001-2 season and your coaching some super big man fantasy team and u're down by 1 point, u have the ball, who do u give it to? jamal magloire, theo ratliff, dale davis or the mvp candidate AD? yes, of course AD cause the dude can defend, rebound, play out of position and score like bill clinton at the oval office . the raptors were in that horrendous position outside the playoffs cause vince was dominating the ball and wasn't playing nice in the sandbox with teammates notably chris childs and keon clark. after that season i was resolved to the reality that vince was a carcinogenic carcass in the locker room. after vince declared himself "out", the raptors went on that miraculous 14 game run to put themselves in the playoffs spearheaded by AD?s leadership and play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ezra:</div><div class="quote_post">That's because the hype gets to your head.

What did they lose before that run to make the playoffs, something like 17 in a row?</div>

cause of vince not AD and i think it was 13.

 

im always in da raptors forums alot of people there do over rate him but he has a whole lot of value comeone. he sells out areans he avereged 22 5 and 5 so he does has value. he isnt like a top 15 player like he was 4 years ago but he still has a lot of value

 

I think Vince still has a lot of value, like someone else mentioned, he averaged 22, 5 and 5. Which is great. he's an all star, and think a little, the NBA is not all about basketball, Vince brings crowds, he is fun to watch, so wherever he goes, Crowds will gather, and Gm's will love that. Its unfortunate that he gets injured, but he can still jump, shot, block and rebound, all he needs to do is work on his defense. If he stays healthy , he can be a an MVP contender. (And By the way, "deception" i don't mean to criticise you or anything, but you don't look like you know what you talking about, AD for MVP, LMAO, i'm only 14, but i believe i know more about basketball than you do. Get your facts straight)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting thedude9990:</div><div class="quote_post">im always in da raptors forums alot of people there do over rate him but he has a whole lot of value comeone. he sells out areans he avereged 22 5 and 5 so he does has value. he isnt like a top 15 player like he was 4 years ago but he still has a lot of value</div>
Actually he probably still is a top 15 player, 3 years ago he was a top 10 player, now he's not, but after the top 10 their aren't many guys much better than him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually he probably still is a top 15 player, 3 years ago he was a top 10 player, now he's not, but after the top 10 their aren't many guys much better than him. </div>

my top 15
(1) kg
(2) tim duncan
(3) shaq
(4) kobe
(5) ai
(6) t-mac
(7) j.kidd
(8) j.o'neil
(9) paul pierce
(10) elton brand
(11) baron davis
(12) marbury
(13) nowitski
(14) c.webb (even fat)
(15) zach randolph

vince makes my top 25

 

Some of those guys are BS. That list is garbo.

Vince has lost cred. because of injuries. Why don't injuries affect the ratings of Baron Davis (11), Allen Iverson (5), or Chris Webber (14), who have missed just as many games in the last two years, and whose numbers are essentially equivalent?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ezra:</div><div class="quote_post">Why don't injuries affect the ratings of Baron Davis (11), Allen Iverson (5), or Chris Webber (14), who have missed just as many games in the last two years, and whose numbers are essentially equivalent?</div>

Their teams make the playoffs regardless (with the exception of this year's 76ers).

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Their teams make the playoffs regardless (with the exception of this year's 76ers).</div>

exactly. in fact, all the guys on my list have been consistently in the playoff except t-mac and brand.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ezra:</div><div class="quote_post">Ray Allen or Michael Redd wouldn't cut it.

You can't trade an A for a B. You just can't.

Vince Carter is the most marketable player in the league, and the most popular. Michael Redd and Ray Allen don't cut it there, and I don't think I have to get into why he's a much better player than both those guys.

Iverson, yes. Kidd, maybe. Pierce, maybe. Other than that, everybody's locked down for a while.</div>

I'd love for you to 'get into it', just so I can hear how you can possibly justify that line. So go on...

 

Are you stupid?

Michael Redd and Ray Allen aren't nearly as marketable as Vince Carter. Not even close.

Neither are they as good as him. Even now.

Ray's injured just as much as Vince, and isn't the passer that Vince is. Ray Allen on a good day is the VC that everybody hates, not taking it to the rack, and just jacking up contested jumpers.

Michael Redd does nothing on the level of a Vince Carter. Nothing. Seriously, it's not even close. I'd get into greater detail, but then I'd just be listing everything a basketball player could possibly do. If you require justification in me saying VC is better than Mike Redd, then you probably require anti-psychotics, too. Honestly.


And to the other guy, look at the Raptors' team. You can't fault Vince when his team only manages to score 56 points in a game, with the terribly coaching, Milt Palacio (Milt Palacio!) is your starting PG, and all that other drama that Toronto went through.

After "the trade" they were respectable.

The point of this, remember, is to say that Vince is still good, and he is. A superstar, even.

The tiers go:

1: Shaq, KG, TD.
2: Tracy, Kobe. Possibly Allen Iverson.
3: Vince, Dirk, Pierce, Brand, JKidd, Marbury, et al.
4: Ray Allen, Mike Redd, Kenyon Martin, Rip Hamilton, Baron Davis, et al.
5: It no longer matters.

If you need further convincing, go back and read the last page. This is the Grizzlies forum. Nobody wants to get into the whole "mJ Vs. KoB3 LoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" thing here.

 

No I'm not stupid, but there is no way that, at this current point in time, Vince Carter is a "much better player" than Michael Redd and Ray Allen.

A) Vince is not on the same level as Kidd, Pierce and Dirk. There you have one guy who has taken his team to two finals appearances, and the other two are the leaders of perennial playoff teams. What has Vince done lately to justify him being put up with those guys?

Michael Redd has just come off an All-Star season where he was the go-to guy on a Bucks team that was expected to finish amongst the cellar dwellers, yet they made the playoffs. Ray Allen has come off an All-Star year where he averaged 23, 5 and 5, including two triple doubles and more than once won games off his own back with clutch performances, and kept a big man deprived Sonics team in the playoff race in the West.

I'm not doubting Vince's calibre, but because we're not talking about three seasons ago, I'd like some logical arguments as to why he is a 'much better player' than Allen and Redd, and not personal remarks.

And marketability isn't an argument.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ezra:</div><div class="quote_post"><font color="red"><strike>Are you stupid?</strike></font>

Michael Redd and Ray Allen aren't nearly as marketable as Vince Carter. Not even close.

Neither are they as good as him. Even now.

Ray's injured just as much as Vince, and isn't the passer that Vince is. Ray Allen on a good day is the VC that everybody hates, not taking it to the rack, and just jacking up contested jumpers.

Michael Redd does nothing on the level of a Vince Carter. Nothing. Seriously, it's not even close. I'd get into greater detail, but then I'd just be listing everything a basketball player could possibly do. If you require justification in me saying VC is better than Mike Redd, then you probably require anti-psychotics, too. Honestly.


And to the other guy, look at the Raptors' team. You can't fault Vince when his team only manages to score 56 points in a game, with the terribly coaching, Milt Palacio (Milt Palacio!) is your starting PG, and all that other drama that Toronto went through.

After "the trade" they were respectable.

The point of this, remember, is to say that Vince is still good, and he is. A superstar, even.

The tiers go:

1: Shaq, KG, TD.
2: Tracy, Kobe. Possibly Allen Iverson.
3: Vince, Dirk, Pierce, Brand, JKidd, Marbury, et al.
4: Ray Allen, Mike Redd, Kenyon Martin, Rip Hamilton, Baron Davis, et al.
5: It no longer matters.

If you need further convincing, go back and read the last page. This is the Grizzlies forum. Nobody wants to get into the whole "mJ Vs. KoB3 LoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" thing here.</div>


<font color="red">first off,you need to chill on the name calling & baiting. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make them stupid. Thats not wanted nor is it needed here.</font>


Anyways,have you even seen Michael Redd play?? There is no way that Vince Carter is 'a much better' player than he is. Redd doesn't dunk like Vince but he goes to the hole when he needs to and he does it effectively but other than dunking I put Redd above Vince everytime.

Is it Vince's ability to sit outside and chuck up useless threes that makes him better? His not driving the lane when he should be or is it his atrocious defense(granted its better than it has been but its still lacking)? Is it the fact that Vince couldn't lead a horse to water?

If saying Vince is 'much better' than Redd then break it down and tell us exactly how its like that.


as for your 'tiers'..all i can say is

VC on the same level as Paul Pierce? I don't think so.

Allen Iverson above Kidd,Pierce and Brand? In what world?

Baron Davis below Marbury?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">


Allen Iverson above Kidd,Pierce and Brand? In what world?

Baron Davis below Marbury? </div>


i agree with the crux of your post about vince being overrated but the last bit i disagree with. ai has remarkable breakdown abilities; outside of shaq there isn't a player in the league that demands incessant double and triple teams like ai. j.kidd when healthy could be placed in the top 5 echelon but his half court game is suspect and his jump shot is plain ordinary. and i think in terms of skill baron and marbury are interchangeable but i ranked baron ahead because marbury has a proclivity to not play nice in the sandbox with his teammates. imagine if he stayed in minnesota with kg, the wolves would have challenged the lakers for the 3 championships. although, marbury is rapidly maturing. i know u weren't addressing me in your post but i had a top 15 as well in the thread and your reply challenged my list.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">i agree with the crux of your post about vince being overrated but the last bit i disagree with. ai has remarkable breakdown abilities; outside of shaq there isn't a player in the league that demands incessant double and triple teams like ai. j.kidd when healthy could be placed in the top 5 echelon but his half court game is suspect and his jump shot is plain ordinary. and i think in terms of skill baron and marbury are interchangeable but i ranked baron ahead because marbury has a proclivity to not play nice in the sandbox with his teammates. imagine if he stayed in minnesota with kg, the wolves would have challenged the lakers for the 3 championships. although, marbury is rapidly maturing. i know u weren't addressing me in your post but i had a top 15 as well in the thread and your reply challenged my list.</div>


well Kidd is a consumate team leader. He makes everyone on the floor a better player,his presence single handedly dictated the Nets two trips to the finals and other than one season the Sixers haven't done much. There is alot more to a basketball player than physical abilities and I try to take into consideration the whole package. AI may draw the double/triple teams but he doesn't make his team better and he isn't much of a floor leader IMO. That is the whole basis of why I made that statement.