U lost out on the Kobe sweepstakes, details here to enter the Vince sweepstakes

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">well Kidd is a consumate team leader. He makes everyone on the floor a better player,his presence single handedly dictated the Nets two trips to the finals and other than one season the Sixers haven't done much. There is alot more to a basketball player than physical abilities and I try to take into consideration the whole package. AI may draw the double/triple teams but he doesn't make his team better and he isn't much of a floor leader IMO. That is the whole basis of why I made that statement.</div>


wait... ai consistently draws double and triple teams but he doesn't make his team better? so u think aaron mckie and eric snow could hit contested jump shots? besides, its hard to compare ai and j.kidd using the past few seasons has a measure because the nets have a much better basketball team surrounding kidd than a.i. ever enjoyed including the finals appearance team.

and as j.kidd being a "consummate team leader", i beg to differ. kidd has already played on three teams: in dallas when he wasn't pursing toni braxton he was okay but never met lofty expectations, in phoneix he never had the impact the colangelo's anticipated earning the label as a poor playoff performer (poor half court game) and in new jersey he lead the nets to the finals but got his head coach fired in the process and now he demands a trade (according to published reports). history does not support your argument.

i agree ai has had a tumultuous career but he's stayed committed to philly and this entire olympic experience is going to revitalize his shaky public image. clearly, ai has emerged as the leader and i don't know about u but when he speaks there are these profound truths that resonate from his being. what i'm trying to say is that he's authentic, keepin it real as the kids say and people respect that.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">wait... ai consistently draws double and triple teams but he doesn't make his team better? so u think aaron mckie and eric snow could hit contested jump shots? besides, its hard to compare ai and j.kidd using the past few seasons has a measure because the nets have a much better basketball team surrounding kidd than a.i. ever enjoyed including the finals appearance team.</div>

how is it hard to compare them? AI does alot of things detremental to his team..doesn't come to practice hes an admitted ball hog,constantly doing something off the court to disrupt his team. AI can win scoring titles and draw double teams all day long that doesn't make him better than Kidd. I stand by my argument that AI doesn't make his teammates better. The year they made the finals had alot to do with some of the other players more so than AI.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and as j.kidd being a "consummate team leader", i beg to differ. kidd has already played on three teams: in dallas when he wasn't pursing toni braxton he was okay but never met lofty expectations, in phoneix he never had the impact the colangelo's anticipated earning the label as a poor playoff performer (poor half court game) and in new jersey he lead the nets to the finals but got his head coach fired in the process and now he demands a trade (according to published reports). history does not support your argument.</div>

Kidd was a veteran of all of two seasons by the time he was traded to Pheonix. His first year with Dallas he made an IMMEDIATE impact from like 13 wins to 38 or so,the next year it sank to 26 but that can be more attributed to Jamal Masburn and his tantrums. He never had an impact in Phoenix? Come again? They won something like 227 games during his tenure including 3,50+ win seasons. He did his job pretty well. He had far greater impact on the Suns as far as winning goes compared to what AI has done for Philly. Combine all three of his experiences with Dallas,Phx & Philly and it paints the picture of a floor leader who makes his team better.

I don't blame Kidd for wanting a trade,they promised him one thing and they are doing another. I would be pissed too.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">how is it hard to compare them? AI does alot of things detremental to his team..doesn't come to practice hes an admitted ball hog,constantly doing something off the court to disrupt his team. AI can win scoring titles and draw double teams all day long that doesn't make him better than Kidd. I stand by my argument that AI doesn't make his teammates better. The year they made the finals had alot to do with some of the other players more so than AI. </div>

okay. u answered me in platitudes, cliches often used to dismiss ai's impact. ball hog=true. yeah, but kyle korver, john salmons, derrick coleman (out of shape), eric snow (with surgically repaired everything), aaron mckie and glen robinson aren't exactly scottie pippen nor kenyon martin or richard jefferson for that matter. he's a ball hog out of necessity not out of ego. the practice thing is sensationalized; sure he doesn't show up to a handful of practices but if i got beat on like he does i would sleep in as well. and your last sentence is just outright comical, are u trying to imply that dikembe or some other sixer was more instrumental in that teams playoff success?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd was a veteran of all of two seasons by the time he was traded to Pheonix. His first year with Dallas he made an IMMEDIATE impact from like 13 wins to 38 or so,the next year it sank to 26 but that can be more attributed to Jamal Masburn and his tantrums. He never had an impact in Phoenix? Come again? They won something like 227 games during his tenure including 3,50+ win seasons. He did his job pretty well. He had far greater impact on the Suns as far as winning goes compared to what AI has done for Philly. Combine all three of his experiences with Dallas,Phx & Philly and it paints the picture of a floor leader who makes his team better.

I don't blame Kidd for wanting a trade,they promised him one thing and they are doing another. I would be pissed too.</div>

u're trying to sell me a revisionist history using his regular season success prior to him arriving in new jersey. u know your deluding the facts:dallas had an immensely talented team with monster mash (healthy) and jimmy jackson alongside kidd and correct me if i'm wrong but in phoenix they never advanced past the first round during his tenure. besides, how can u rate kidd over iverson when he can't hit a open jump shot with any consistency?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">okay. u answered me in platitudes, cliches often used to dismiss ai's impact. ball hog=true. yeah, but kyle korver, john salmons, derrick coleman (out of shape), eric snow (with surgically repaired everything), aaron mckie and glen robinson aren't exactly scottie pippen nor kenyon martin or richard jefferson for that matter. he's a ball hog out of necessity not out of ego. the practice thing is sensationalized; sure he doesn't show up to a handful of practices but if i got beat on like he does i would sleep in as well. and your last sentence is just outright comical, are u trying to imply that dikembe or some other sixer was more instrumental in that teams playoff success?
</div>

I think that ego does have apart to do with AI's lack of leadership and some of his decisions that make people precieve him as a selfish, ball hog. If you think about guys like Tim Thomas and Larry Hughes. He had those guys in the point of their careers where they still had alot of potenial to grow and end up being perfect compilments to his game, but his me 1st style really never gave them a chance to grow in philly. A guy like Tim Thomas, who when he can out of Villinova was known as a verstile do it all player, would have really fit in well with Ai if given a chance to share some of the spotlight imo.

Also AI's selfishness and me 1st style, led to alot of lockeroom problems back in the day. I mean it was even reported that him an Stackhouse got into so bad one day in practice over shots that it spilled out to the parking lot, where a weapon or two was drawn.

This is the same guy who drove away a great head coach in Larry Brown, his ego would not let him conform to the style that LB wanted him to play. Iverson clearly wanted to be the man in that situation. And clearly was not thinking of the team 1st because if he was, there is not way you drive away a guy with the winning track record LB had with the Pacers,Nets, Spurs and Nuggets(I think). Everybody knew LB had a track record of leaving teams when the situation gets a bit streessful and everyone knew in a matter of time AI's attiude would send him packing and it clearly did. So to say AI's ego has not led to alot of negative actions on and off-court is a bit out off basis. Even Coach John Thompson has been in several discussions with AI about putting is ego to the side and just conforming a bit for the better of his game, his reputation, & the sixers. Yet it doesnt seem like that has even really ever set in, so thats not a leader imo.

And as far as Mutombo goes, no he was not more important then AI in the sixers playoffs success in 2001 playoffs. But even with AI, if the sixers didnt have Dikembe no way do they get past the Bucks in the eastern conference finals that year. I watched every minute of that series. And he was the one player the Bucks had no type of answer for Ervin Johnson and Scott Williams just couldnt cut it. He easy was putting up double-double every night. Ray Allen pretty much matched Allen Iverson all series long. And Eric Snow & Sammy was going back & forth, up & down all season. But Dekimbe was the one player that couldnt be matched especially in game 7, when he had that 20-20 game, he owned the paint. He made a jump shooting Buck team take even more jumpshots then usual. Iverson was scoring a bulk of the points of course, but the difference was Mutombo. Also the wing players on the sixers stepped up big time during that series as well Jurmiane Jones and Aaron Mckie.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">okay. u answered me in platitudes, cliches often used to dismiss ai's impact. ball hog=true. yeah, but kyle korver, john salmons, derrick coleman (out of shape), eric snow (with surgically repaired everything), aaron mckie and glen robinson aren't exactly scottie pippen nor kenyon martin or richard jefferson for that matter. he's a ball hog out of necessity not out of ego. the practice thing is sensationalized; sure he doesn't show up to a handful of practices but if i got beat on like he does i would sleep in as well. and your last sentence is just outright comical, are u trying to imply that dikembe or some other sixer was more instrumental in that teams playoff success?</div>

Say what you want,AI is a one-on-one,selfish,me first player and anyone who watches the NBA will tell you that. That is/was John Thompson's biggest knock on the guy and that was Larry Brown's biggest knock as well. He doesn't get his team involved anything like he should during the flow of the game. Iverson is a tough little bastard who scores in bunches but that hardly matters if your team is mediocre. I don't think there is anything you can say that will put a positive spin on his negative attributes.

Ball hog out of necessity?? Guys like Aaron McKey,Big Dog,Derrick Coleman(throw in Mutumbo and you have as much,if not more talent than Kidd has had in NJ) and the like aren't Jordan by any stretch of the imagination but they can do an adequate job if they can get the ball. When you have Iverson jackin' up 40 shots a night,oblivious to everything else it makes it hard to get anyone else as involved as they should be. But to answer your question,yes all those players were extremely vital to Phillys playoff run. I'll go a step further and say if they didn't have Eric Snow's steady hand & leadership at the point they wouldn't have made it as far as they did. He made the effort to get EVERYONE involved.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">u're trying to sell me a revisionist history using his regular season success prior to him arriving in new jersey. u know your deluding the facts:dallas had an immensely talented team with monster mash (healthy) and jimmy jackson alongside kidd and correct me if i'm wrong but in phoenix they never advanced past the first round during his tenure. besides, how can u rate kidd over iverson when he can't hit a open jump shot with any consistency?</div>

Well tell me,how many times has AI been to the playoffs and been a huge success??? He hasn't done any better than Kidd and for you to claim otherwise is ludicrous. You are trying to discredit Kidd by his playoff woes when AI has done no better.

 

So, If you guys were GM's, you would rather pick Michael Redd & Ray Allen over Vince Carter?
Vince Carter, when healthy is an excellent, above average player (offensively, but he still lacks defense).

Fact: The Raptors were around 5th or 6th last season before Vince, Rose, Alvin and Chirs Bosh were all injured in the same week/span.
Which left us with a team of Robert Archibald and such with Marshall being our best player. And this lasted for 2 weeks or so. And that is when we started sliding. Injuries are not a good excuse but it's kind of hard to stay in the sixth spot in the East when your playing with role players that are below-average or just average at best (except maybe Marshall, he was grabbing double doubles the whole season).

You (supersonic) are naming Ray Allen's clutch performances. If you had watched the Raptors 2003-2004 season you would have seen that vince had some clutch plays as well. 44 on the Hawks? Game tying 360 3point play? Game-saving block on Jason Terry?
His sideways fadeway over Tmac (twice) to lead the Raps to the win? And numerous others. Vince is clutch. He's been given this 'injury prone, incapable to play' player label though he only missed NINE games last year. Vince chose to pass more then shoot last year and it showed. 22, 5 and 5 is not easy to maintain over the course of a season.

Michael Redd, IMO is not upto Vince's level yet because he is not that good of a passer or rebounder that Vince is (probably due to Vince being a little bigger) but nonetheless I would pick VC over Redd, or Allen for that matter. Vince and Allen are in the same category in my eyes, but VC can attract the
masses more.

As for deception, you put Zach Randolf ahead of Vince?

 

^ Why are people getting the impression that I'm putting down VC as a player? I'm not, and I accept he is a great player when healthy, I'm just trying to disprove what I believe what a ridiculous statement, that Vince Carter is a "much better player" than Ray Allen and Michael Redd. He isn't, and I'm yet to get a decent argument as to why he is on the court.

 

I would rate VC and Allen in the same category because they are still capable of breaking out in any games but they have not been as effecient consistently in the past year as they were previously but I think once they are back in complete form they will regain their status again.

Michael Redd, I don't think is upto Vince's or Ray's caliber yet (he is a better shooter then Vince, but not as good as Ray IMO). Michael is only getting better and I think he will eventually be better then Vince and Ray but he needs to completely develop all aspects of his game, other then shooting.

 

Okay, I'm not going to get into this anymore as, as I said, I don't care about this whole "mJ vS. KoBe Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" BS, but

Mike Redd:

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 21.7
RPG 5.0
APG 2.3
SPG .99
BPG .07
FG% .440
FT% .868
3P% .350
MPG 36.8

Vince Carter:
PPG 22.5
RPG 4.8
APG 4.8
SPG 1.21
BPG .89
FG% .417
FT% .806
3P% .383
MPG 38.2

As a cripple, and someone who has fallen off, VC is still light years ahead of Redd. Saying otherwise is lunacy.

And second, marketability has everything to do with this. Why would you trade one of the most popular players in the history of the league for someone who's not even as good as them, and not nearly as marketable? That makes no sense.

<"baiting" and "name calling" here>

 

Okay, I'm not going to get into this anymore as, as I said, I don't care about this whole "mJ vS. KoBe Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" BS, but

Mike Redd:

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 21.7
RPG 5.0
APG 2.3
SPG .99
BPG .07
FG% .440
FT% .868
3P% .350
MPG 36.8

Vince Carter:
PPG 22.5
RPG 4.8
APG 4.8
SPG 1.21
BPG .89
FG% .417
FT% .806
3P% .383
MPG 38.2

As a cripple, and someone who has fallen off, VC is still light years ahead of Redd. Saying otherwise is lunacy.

And second, marketability has everything to do with this. Why would you trade one of the most popular players in the history of the league for someone who's not even as good as them, and not nearly as marketable? That makes no sense.

This is the Grizzlies forum. Seriously. Unless it's Grizzlies related, in at least some obscure way, don't yak about it here.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ezra:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, I'm not going to get into this anymore as, as I said, I don't care about this whole "mJ vS. KoBe Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" BS, but

Mike Redd:

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 21.7
RPG 5.0
APG 2.3
SPG .99
BPG .07
FG% .440
FT% .868
3P% .350
MPG 36.8

Vince Carter:
PPG 22.5
RPG 4.8
APG 4.8
SPG 1.21
BPG .89
FG% .417
FT% .806
3P% .383
MPG 38.2

As a cripple, and someone who has fallen off, VC is still light years ahead of Redd. Saying otherwise is lunacy.

And second, marketability has everything to do with this. Why would you trade one of the most popular players in the history of the league for someone who's not even as good as them, and not nearly as marketable? That makes no sense.

This is the Grizzlies forum. Seriously. Unless it's Grizzlies related, in at least some obscure way, don't yak about it here.</div>


Light years? Yea man,those stats really show a huge gap between the two players. By those stats they are on the same level. Light years ahead would be Vince having 30+ppg,10+rpg & 10+apg but that isn't the case so your argument is null and void.

You're right. This is the Grizzlies forum but the title of thread brings Vince into the debate and,unless I'm mistaken,we are discussing how good Vince really is. And why do you keep making that asinine 'mjvskobe!!!!!!' statement? No one is discussing MJ vs. Kobe.

 

So the fact that their stats are very closel matched and the Bucks went to the playoffs while the Raptors wallowed out in lottery territory means Vince is light years ahead of Michael Redd? I'm extremely confused - you haven't yet given a valid argument as to why and how this is the case. All you keep saying is "If you can't see why you're an idiot" etc.

Well I guess I must be an idiot, any chance of a logical explanation anytime soon?

 

VC isn't "lightyears" ahead of Vince. You showing that VC averages about a point more then Redd doesn't do anything. Also, Redd averages the same amount of rebounds and Vince only leads in points (barely), steals and assists.

Vince has the potential to average greater then what he averaged this year.
As does Redd, they are pretty much on the same level as of now but I would choose Vince as a GM because of his ability to do everything (drive, pass, rebound, score)
Redd can do the same things but Carter has already been a proven player who, when healthy, can score enormously and will his team to victory. That is the deciding factor, atleast for me.
I believe that Redd will eventually break out greater then he already has but since he is mostly a shooting player (correct me if you think I'm wrong) therefore he will fall into a Ray Allen type career.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">Say what you want,AI is a one-on-one,selfish,me first player and anyone who watches the NBA will tell you that. That is/was John Thompson's biggest knock on the guy and that was Larry Brown's biggest knock as well. He doesn't get his team involved anything like he should during the flow of the game. Iverson is a tough little bastard who scores in bunches but that hardly matters if your team is mediocre. I don't think there is anything you can say that will put a positive spin on his negative attributes. </div>

was jordan a ball hog? i ask that rhetorically cause I?ll answer that with an emphatic ?YES? , in spite of having a good supporting cast around him. and as i've argued consistently iverson's perceived selfish play is an act of necessity cause he was surrounded by defensively orientated players who were offensively inept.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ball hog out of necessity?? Guys like Aaron McKey,Big Dog,Derrick Coleman(throw in Mutumbo and you have as much,if not more talent than Kidd has had in NJ) and the like aren't Jordan by any stretch of the imagination but they can do an adequate job if they can get the ball. When you have Iverson jackin' up 40 shots a night,oblivious to everything else it makes it hard to get anyone else as involved as they should be. But to answer your question,yes all those players were extremely vital to Phillys playoff run. I'll go a step further and say if they didn't have Eric Snow's steady hand & leadership at the point they wouldn't have made it as far as they did. He made the effort to get EVERYONE involved. </div>

i agree with the bit about eric snow being a vital contributor but keep in mind his skills have declined dramatically which is probably why they traded him. snow guarded the best players, hit the wide open jump shots (bravo to ai for getting him that), compensate often for ai taking chances with steal attempts? and handled the point guard duties freeing him up to roam around. not disputing the snow bit and the other defensive stalwarts but i still maintain it was a dreadful offensive team.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well tell me,how many times has AI been to the playoffs and been a huge success??? He hasn't done any better than Kidd and for you to claim otherwise is ludicrous. You are trying to discredit Kidd by his playoff woes when AI has done no better.</div>

okay i acknowledge their teams have had similar trackrecords in terms of success of course factoring in kidd's stint with phoenix and dallas. but u?ve still skirted the issue of rating a dude who can't hit a open jump shot with any consistency over ai?