That of course isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation in Ukraine, but suppose it was actually true of the southern US. You would then think that Mexico should take a few US states, and the US should agree to that? barfo
How do you know what Russia does and doesn't want? Loudly reiterating propaganda points with no basis? Hmm. If what your bud Vlad wanted was for NATO not to expand on his doorstep, he sure fucked up, didn't he? It's almost like that wasn't really what he was worried about. Or he's pretty stupid. Either way, it should suggest loudly reiterating his propaganda is unwise. barfo
No one is telling Ukraine what to do, we just don't think the US needs to be involved. How many of you were critical of Obama for not going to war with Russia took over Crimea? What does it matter to the US who controls the Donbas region? (where most of the folks want to be part of Russia anyway). How were you all so easily convinced that we should spend billions of dollars to support a war of carnage over eastern Ukraine? One that could even trigger a nuclear conflict. Did it become partisan because the Dems blamed Russia for 2020? I fear the reason may actually be that stupid.
I would have certainly supported the US funding and supplying weapons to assist with Ukraine's defense of Crimea in 2014. Absolutely.
At this point, the longer they fight, the more of them will die. So continuing to fight is only increasing the carnage because they have no possibility of victory. That's usually a good time to surrender.
If you see a dog snarling at you, does it make sense to get into a fist fight with it, under the rationale that it's better to kick it's ass now so it won't want to mess with you later? That seems to be the logic that is being employed with Russia. If we don't fight them in Ukraine they are going to invade NATO, then we'll REALLY have a fight on our hands. When the idea that this will happen is absurd and there is no reason to believe Russia has any intention to invade NATO. Starting a fight with it is only greatly increasing the chance of what you're supposedly trying to avoid happening. And now we have leaders in NATO countries openly talking about using NATO troops directly. And we keep being told not to worry about the nuclear aspect of this...
Who is telling you this? Russia cannot mathematically hold a country the size of Ukraine by force. They don't have a large enough fighting force. The only way Russia can hold Ukraine is if Ukraine gives up. As long as Ukraine keeps fighting Russia cannot win. Russia will bankrupt themselves first and fall into turmoil. Ukraine can hold out for literally years at the current rate. Russia can't maintain the attack for that long. So as long as Ukraine has the drive to win and Russia doesn't use nukes (which would be suicide for Russia) then Ukraine will eventually win.
We're not fighting them. We're supporting Ukraine with weapons, supplies, and money. Russia is weakening itself in Ukraine. Our support makes them weaker and less likely to succeed in Ukraine. If Russia cannot take Ukraine they will not be able to take any other countries. If Russia were to use nukes the whole world would support an overwhelming non-nuclear response which would eliminate Putin's power. We don't need nukes to defeat Russia. Russia using nukes would be absolute suicide.
How do you? There’s more evidence and statements from the players involved to support my assertion than the counter narrative of “Russia is marching across Ukraine, then Europe, then the world!”
This is exactly it. They used this fake Russian boogeyman narrative to manufacture consent for supporting this current debacle, which is completely inconsequential to American life in any way. When you consider all those original Russiagate scandals were completely debunked it makes the situation even more ridiculous.
This is irrelevant. Russia is attacking a sovereign nation and when that nation didn't have our help to strongly resist the taking of Crimea it resulted in The Russian Kyiv convoy less than a decade later. Helping Ukraine defend itself is the best strategic move for the US and it is also the right thing to do morally, and in all other ways.
There is absolutely no strategic benefit for the United States in any way whatsoever. Zero. It’s not even worth arguing because it’s so ridiculous. As to your “moral” concerns…hundreds of thousands of dead kids while western contractors make billions is an interesting “moral” ground to stand on. The “poor little Ukraine” narrative has fallen apart. It’s a playground for western corruption and their government is complicit. They are sending kids to die for money. Wake up.
If you see a big dog attacking a little dog, do you just shrug and say "well, it's smaller, so it's gotta die, not my problem"? Or, if there's a way to break up the fight that doesn't put you in danger yourself, do you do something? barfo
The dead kids are on Russia. When you invade other countries people die. Including kids. Particularly when you target civilians. Russia should stop. If you don't see the strategic advantages after they've been explained in this thread it's because you are wilfully choosing not to. That's on you.
There’s nothing to defend or understand. What’s happening is blatant. It’s a tried and true neocon agenda.
It's one thing to be anti-war. It's a whole other thing to think that a country should never fight back when attacked. barfo
Do you think there is any strategic benefit for the United States in supporting any other country or countries if they are attacked? If so, which ones and why? NATO is a mutual defense treaty. Should we pull out of NATO like Trump and Putin want? Do you see any possible downsides to that? Let's hear the jonnyboy doctrine explicitly. barfo
There is clear evidence Putin planned for a war much larger than rolling over Ukraine in three days. For decades, Russia has been one of the largest exporters of military equipment. That all changed a year before Putin invaded Ukraine. Instead of exporting weapons, Russia began buying them back. One example is, a Russian factory that builds the SU 35 fighter, bought back 1/2 $billion worth of their SU 35s, a year before the war started. And about another 1/2 $billion worth since then. It is clear, Putin planned ahead for a very large war.
Why do you think Russia wants to take other countries? It already has a massive landmass and a lot of natural resources. Russia has been very open, about how it feels Ukraine is a red line, and how it felt about NATO expansion. This idea that we have to stop Putin from trying to take over the world is propaganda.
