<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>L, you are comparing role players to core players. Lewis is an extremely valuable core player. He is very specifically suited for what the Magic want to do.</div> I'm just referencing to role players with the Butler hypothetical. As for value, I have stated that i believe a player's value is determined via talent level(core, role, whatever) and importance to their team and its goals. Thus why I don't like Carter's contract. He may have a high talent level, but the Nets overpaid for a player that does not fit here and thus not helping to solve the situation.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really? How was Hedo doing before someone had to guard Lewis? They work well as a UNIT.</div> So what do you suggest the Nets do? Trade VC for expirings, and build around RJ. Or get rid of them both and build around Devin? Then next year were sure to get a top 3 pick and draft someone like Griffin, Derozan, or BJ Mullens?
I am not about to go through 5 pages. I'll just say this whatever Ghoti said I totally agree with and is an excellent point. The signing of VC had nothing to do with winning a championship. As Ghoti said when we do get rid of Carter it will be for pennies. The other GM's are laughing you think they are jealous of the Nets right now?????? I never said VC was not a good player but he is not what this team needs. As Ghoti also said if this was the Hornets and Jazz he would make them contenders but right now Carter is back in the same place he was during the Raptors low years and we know how that ended up
Ghoti, so you don't think giving Rashard Lewis a contract that gives an average of 20 mill per year over 6 years nuts? I'd rather have Ginobli at 10 mill per year and throw in the remaining 10 at someone else. Except Ginobili is averaging 2 more ppg, more spg, 2 more assists per game, in 8 less mpg. KG, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, AI, they get 20 mill per year, but Rashard?
look the nets gave VC too much money in the contract... but i for one still believes part of it has to do with what he did in the past years... for example carrying the nets in the playoffs
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jason Kidd in his prime was a player a good GM like Otis Smith could have won a championship with. He understands how to win in the NBA.</div> If Otis Smith still has a job in 3 years, it will be simply and solely because Dwight Howard is talented enough to carry that entire franchise to winning regular season records and maybe a round or two into the playoffs. But sooner or later, the heavy lifting will wear him out, and some other GM will have to clean up the incredibly stupid signing of Rashard Lewis. Jason Kidd was never a good enough all round player to be the best player on a championship team. That's why they were totally outclassed in the finals twice and likely wouldn't have made it that far if the eastern conference had any real depth at that time. They sparkled for a short time and overachieved when they had tremendously complimentary parts (which, ironically, you don't credit Thorn for putting together, even though he did). But they were exposed by the western powers, which featured more talent at every position, especially inside. Thorn did the right thing by refusing to sign Kenyon Martin to that gargantuan contract, and his judgment has been vindicated 100% in hindsight.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cmoney707 @ Apr 14 2008, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really? How was Hedo doing before someone had to guard Lewis? They work well as a UNIT.</div> So what do you suggest the Nets do? Trade VC for expirings, and build around RJ. Or get rid of them both and build around Devin? Then next year were sure to get a top 3 pick and draft someone like Griffin, Derozan, or BJ Mullens? </div> Well, this is a different question. I would love to trade VC for some value, but giving him away for nothing is not really wise. Maybe some team will like him at the deadline and he can be turned into a young player and a pick. If not, and the Nets were to luck out and get someone like Brand, VC wouldn't be a bad guy to have around. RJ I have no interest in keeping. His value won't get higher. He has turned into a liability, which is a huge shame because he was once one of the hardest working, team-oriented players in the league. Harris is a fantastic player to have. He's a young guy with a ton of potential who is signed to a very reasonable long-term deal. That makes him a great player to keep and build with, and it also makes him a dynamite trade piece if there is an opportunity to get into contention right away. (Like the Celtics did.) As for role players, I think it's too early to collect them. Short term, inexpensive, low-risk contracts and flyers on some of Kiki's "fallen angels" are who should be on the bench. Don't worry so much about getting "shooters" or "athletes or "defenders". Just try to find players with potential to get better and develop them.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Apr 14 2008, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ghoti, so you don't think giving Rashard Lewis a contract that gives an average of 20 mill per year over 6 years nuts? I'd rather have Ginobli at 10 mill per year and throw in the remaining 10 at someone else. Except Ginobili is averaging 2 more ppg, more spg, 2 more assists per game, in 8 less mpg. KG, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, AI, they get 20 mill per year, but Rashard?</div> Was Ginobili an option? Was he available last off-season? They had a bargain player in Turkoglu and a superstar rookie in Howard. They got the player that they wanted to make those players better and it worked like a charm. If they don't win, it'll be because they still have backcourt issues. Those can be fixed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 14 2008, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jason Kidd in his prime was a player a good GM like Otis Smith could have won a championship with. He understands how to win in the NBA.</div> If Otis Smith still has a job in 3 years, it will be simply and solely because Dwight Howard is talented enough to carry that entire franchise to winning regular season records and maybe a round or two into the playoffs. But sooner or later, the heavy lifting will wear him out, and some other GM will have to clean up the incredibly stupid signing of Rashard Lewis. Jason Kidd was never a good enough all round player to be the best player on a championship team. That's why they were totally outclassed in the finals twice and likely wouldn't have made it that far if the eastern conference had any real depth at that time. They sparkled for a short time and overachieved when they had tremendously complimentary parts (which, ironically, you don't credit Thorn for putting together, even though he did). But they were exposed by the western powers, which featured more talent at every position, especially inside.</div> I don't agree with any of this. I think Kidd was plenty good enough to win a championship on a team that was built around him. That applies to every year between 2001 and 2006. And your take on the Magic we can just revisit in a few years and laugh at how silly you sound. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Thorn did the right thing by refusing to sign Kenyon Martin to that gargantuan contract, and his judgment has been vindicated 100% in hindsight.</div> I agree with this, but it has no relevance to the discussion.
he is declining at an alarming rate, his athletic ability os deteriorating due to bad knees. his contract will end up being a bad one soon enough
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really? How was Hedo doing before someone had to guard Lewis? They work well as a UNIT.</div> actually, hedo was putting up 20 pt games the year they traded francis and dwight still wasnt consistent. lewis has been a complete bum for them. his poor ball handling and rebounding has been on great display this year. the reason you dont hear or heard his name in trade rumors is because his contract is laughable that no GM would touch.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And your take on the Magic we can just revisit in a few years and laugh at how silly you sound.</div> Be happy to. But I'll be the one laughing. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Thorn did the right thing by refusing to sign Kenyon Martin to that gargantuan contract, and his judgment has been vindicated 100% in hindsight.</div> I agree with this, but it has no relevance to the discussion.</div> You were saying that overpaying for midling talents that compliment your "superstar" was a good strategy, and, since you are so relentlessly critical of Thorn, I thought you were implying that he should have done that with Martin, as Martin and Kidd both brought out the best in each other. I'm pleased that you agree it was a wise move for him to pass on that mammoth contract for Martin, although I'm puzzled why you don't credit him more for putting together a team on the fly that won two eastern conference titles without having a really dominant talent anywhere on the roster.
As well, lets say Turkoglu was a free agent this summer, and the Magic needed to keep him but he wanted 120 mill over 6 years as well. Even if it was 90 mill over 6 years (15 mill per year), it would be a terrible deal and shouldn't be done. Rashard at 120 mill over 6 years is a bad signing. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Apr 14 2008, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Apr 14 2008, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ghoti, so you don't think giving Rashard Lewis a contract that gives an average of 20 mill per year over 6 years nuts? I'd rather have Ginobli at 10 mill per year and throw in the remaining 10 at someone else. Except Ginobili is averaging 2 more ppg, more spg, 2 more assists per game, in 8 less mpg. KG, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, AI, they get 20 mill per year, but Rashard?</div> Was Ginobili an option? Was he available last off-season? They had a bargain player in Turkoglu and a superstar rookie in Howard. They got the player that they wanted to make those players better and it worked like a charm. If they don't win, it'll be because they still have backcourt issues. Those can be fixed. </div> Just because a team has a need, doesn't mean that they should greatly overpay to get the solution. If it was a 2 year contract sure, but a 6 year contract is too long to overpay someone b/c you have a need. They should have: A. Signed a cheaper albeit less talented alternative. B. Traded for someone, add with the saved 120 mill bucks, throw in 3 mill cash, and maybe take on a waste of contract to entice a deal. C. Wait until the next year to spend the money more wisely. I would understand the rush if Dwight was already in his prime. However putting yourself in salary cap troubles, when Dwight has time, just doesn't make sense. Maybe do a trade with Memphis to land Mike Miller, save them some cap room, or get Nocioni (they have Tyrus, and Joakim Noah). Sign Magette if he opts out. Try to trade for Gasol, Brand, Charlie V.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy @ Apr 14 2008, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>he is declining at an alarming rate, his athletic ability os deteriorating due to bad knees. his contract will end up being a bad one soon enough</div> he is declining at an alarming rate?? how is it alarming? he averages the same FG%, same rebounds, more assists, better free throw %. How do you explain that he is declining at an alarming rate? he averages 2 shots less per game thats it and it could be due to the bum ankle that he's been playing through pretty much the whole season. His athleticsm is almost uncomparable too which I believe would let him maintain his averages for still a couple of years more.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Apr 14 2008, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe do a trade with Memphis to land Mike Miller, save them some cap room, or get Nocioni (they have Tyrus, and Joakim Noah). Sign Magette if he opts out. Try to trade for Gasol, Brand, Charlie V.</div> They didn't want those players. They wanted Rashard Lewis. You can't tell me they were wrong because they had a great season and they aren't nearly done with their roster. This team had a vision of what they wanted to do and it's working. Listening to fans and media is worthless. They'll get on board with you when you win.
People will always be into "name" players and I respect that...this season Vince got a fair amount of money, but considering his market value this offseason we overpaid. The fact is that he doesn't fit in with a rebuilding team, and he doesn't compliment Devin's strength which is running the floor. I would love to get rid of both Vince and RJ and build around Devin.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 14 2008, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm pleased that you agree it was a wise move for him to pass on that mammoth contract for Martin, although I'm puzzled why you don't credit him more for putting together a team on the fly that won two eastern conference titles without having a really dominant talent anywhere on the roster.</div> I guess you mean besides Kidd. Thorn didn't have Kidd first to build around. He lucked into acquiring Kidd (after trading Marbury to the Clippers, BTW) and he was good enough to change the entire organization overnight. Since acquiring Kidd, he has done everything exactly wrong. As each key player was lost, what he brought was either not replaced or replaced with an inferior player. The team lost its identity. He was spineless, rudderless. He showed no leadership. No cohesive vision. He was so concerned with keeping his job - first by kissing Kidd's ass and then Ratner's - that he ruined the franchise. I guess it worked, because he's still here. He had the blueprint. It was his own team. He couldn't even follow that. How stupid do you have to be not to be able to use your own team as a template?
