<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I still think Kobe has a chance to reach Jordan's success level. It really depends on how long he plays, maybe he can go another 10 seasons</div> How many years do yall think <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font> played? Yall are talking like he played for 35 years or something. I showed you guys <font color=""red"">Jordan</font>'s stats for his 11 <u>full year </u>career with the Bulls. Those years excluding the two 18 game seasons; one his 2nd year and the other when he returned from retirement. =each of those years MJ not eligible for awards or statistical rankings. >>> Thats 11 seasons for <font color=""red"">Jordan</font> to do what he did compared to 10 for Kobe to do what he's done. And Shape, youre saying that maybe after <u>10 more years</u>, then it will be truly fair to compare against Kobe; and possibly at that time Kobe would have surpassed <font color=""red"">Jordan </font>statistically and as a player? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A fair comparison is Wade at 24 v. Kobe at 24 ...</div> Thats the most favorable comparsion for Kobe against Wade ... try the other examples I mentioned. Such as _<font color=""Blue"">Compare Wade against a championship Detroit squad and a lesser Shaq VS Kobe against budding Pistons of 04' with a dominant Shaq at his disposal</font>_ <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Kobe had Tim Duncan the Lakers would still be winning titles. </div> If Shaq had Michael Jordan they would've won the ship every year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So what makes Wade better than Kobe usually comes down to a person's opinion because the <u>stats don't really back it up in his favor</u>?</div> again, how do you justify the comparisons with Jordan? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is still the better player, and like Trench said, if he wasn't Wade wouldn't be asking for Kobe's mentorship in the offseason. </div> That's yall's best piece of support for Kobe being better than Wade?..... Kobe is definetly the consensus "Premier" swingman in the game--- being that these guys just started. Belive, Wade Knows he'll be the consensus better player soon enough Wade is not as polished as Kobe, ie; he's not as mature in his game as Kobe is.-- But he has much more ability and is obviously more talented. Watching his game today, he's done things in his<u> 3rd </u>year that Kobe hasnt done in <u>10,</u> and doesn't look like he'll be doing any time soon. All of the "well Shaq holds a star guard's stats down" talk has gone out the door hasnt it Laker fans? Both Bron and Wade are quite obviously better than Kobe-- and even if you dont belive that Right Now they supercede him; anybody on this forum can see they'll easily be the better players for their careers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">How many years do yall think <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font> played? Yall are talking like he played for 35 years or something. I showed you guys <font color=""red"">Jordan</font>'s stats for his 11 <u>full year </u>career with the Bulls. Those years excluding the two 18 game seasons; one his 2nd year and the other when he returned from retirement. =each of those years MJ not eligible for awards or statistical rankings. >>> Thats 11 seasons for <font color=""red"">Jordan</font> to do what he did compared to 10 for Kobe to do what he's done. And Shape, youre saying that maybe after <u>10 more years</u>, then it will be truly fair to compare against Kobe; and possibly at that time Kobe would have surpassed <font color=""red"">Jordan </font>statistically and as a player? Thats the most favorable comparsion for Kobe against Wade ... try the other examples I mentioned. Such as _<font color=""Blue"">Compare Wade against a championship Detroit squad and a lesser Shaq VS Kobe against budding Pistons of 04' with a dominant Shaq at his disposal</font>_ If Shaq had Michael Jordan they would've won the ship every year. again, how do you justify the comparisons with Jordan? That's yall's best piece of support for Kobe being better than Wade?..... Kobe is definetly the "Premier" guard in the game--- being that these guys just started. Belive, Wade Knows he'll be the consensus better player soon enough Wade is not as polished as Kobe, ie; he's not as mature in his game as Kobe is.-- But he has much more ability and is obviously more talented. Watching his game today, he's done things in his<u> 3rd </u>year that Kobe hasnt done in <u>10,</u> and doesn't look like he'll be doing any time soon. All of the "well Shaq holds a star guard's stats down" talk has gone out the door hasnt it Laker fans? Both Bron and Wade are quite obviously better than Kobe-- and even if you dont belive that Right Now they supercede him; anybody on this forum can see they'll easily be the better players for their careers.</div> Why shouldn't Kobe be rewarded for having a longer career than Jordan? Kobe's on pace to pass all of Jordan's statistical records. It's going to take longer for Kobe to do what Jordan did in 11 full seasons, but if he can win more rings it shouldn't matter. Why do you keep bringing Jordan into the debate to begin with? It's Wade and Kobe we're comparing leave Jordan out of it. Bron and Wade are not quite obviously better than Kobe, it's the other way around. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Airtight:</div><div class="quote_post">If Shaq had Michael Jordan they would've won the ship every year.</div> Yeah my point was it's a stupid argument to play the if game. I compared them this season and at age 24. Kobe is better in both scenarios. Compare Kobe and Wade against the Pistons? How about compare the Pistons from '04 playoffs to '06 playoffs instead. The '04 team had the hunger and drive that this year's team clearly lacked. Kobe was also coming off a shoulder injury that season, and of course his off the court problems were a major distraction. Wade is not more talented than Kobe, I'd say Wade really takes advantage of his strength, large hands, explosiveness, and long arms. He's too strong for the SG's in the league quick enough to guard him, and too quick for the SGs in the league who are strong enough to guard him. Same goes for LeBron, he's just a freak in the athletic and strength department. Kobe doesn't have those physical tools to work with. Kobe relies on his conditioning. And you're right Kobe's game is more mature than both of them, which is probably why he shoots from the perimeter more. He takes what the defense gives him instead of forcing his way to the basket. After Kobe injured his shoulder and back he really hasn't attacked with the same recklessness he did earlier in his career. Eventually Wade is going to become more perimeter oriented with his offense. Physically he can't continue to take the hits he endures throughout a season. The older he gets the harder it's going to be for him to recover from the deep bruises and hard bumps.
So you realize Wade is better than Kobe yet or not?-- you talked a lot about conditioning and big hands and a bunch of irrelative facts. How can you use Kobe's shoulder injury from 3 years ago(which was his left shoulder If I remember correctly)-- his court problems his lack of strength and "physical tools to work with" as a few of the excuses as to why Lebron and Wade may or may not be better than him<font color=""LemonChiffon""> / </font>yet the line before you give your blessings to Kobe to strive to achieve more than <font color=""red"">Jordan</font> even if it takes <u>Twice</u> as long? Like you guys said; we're already comparing these guys to Kobe right now... eventhough this being only their third seasons. Save for a tragic career threatening misfortune these guys of course are set to have better careers than Kobe. They'll likely be noticeably distanced from him starting next year. <u>One will be the most able bodied and productive athlete in the league in years-- the other may be the reigning NBA champ and Finals MVP</u>. In their 4th season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How about compare the Pistons from '04 playoffs to '06 playoffs instead. The '04 team had the hunger and drive that this year's team clearly lacked. </div> Or the 05' Pistons. Wade out-performed Kobe measurably under similar circumstances against either team. How do you comment about Wade's physical tools like an unique advantage-- then say/imply Kobe wasn't afforded the same and therefore must compensate? You guys we're just saying Kobe was much more athletic than <font color=""red"">Jordan</font>-- and that guy didnt have too much trouble compensating. Wade is also lighter and shorter than Kobe-- which is fact, as far as the stat sheet tells us. - Why do yall feel that Kobe is some desolate, frail man that cant find a gym in his area and is unable to enhance himself physically/athletically in anyway? That is what yall feel right? We havta hear the excuses from yall anytime someone's better than him. Shape- you said Kobe cant hang with Dwyane Wade athletically right? Which should be subtracted from Wade's stats or ability because it's an unfair advantage. However we shouldnt hold Kobe to these same ridiculous type rules, right? You talk about Wade's big hands like we should add points on Kobe's stat sheet because he doesn't have this advantage. - I'm looking for a post I recall on the 'Where's Kobe rank' thread where some Laker fan was pointing out Kobe's hands, wingspan and hops and quicks we're better than <font color=""red"">Jordan</font>'s himself. // wether or not that's true, it didnt change my arugment for <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font>; but If Wade were to be more gifted than Kobe in any one of these facets we gotta totally change the way we look at things huh? It's just not fair?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TopLake:</div><div class="quote_post">Top 5 Kobe haters: 1. AIRTIGHT 2. THE DREAM 3. Durvasa 4. SHAQ 5. Raja Bell</div> Cool, I made the top 5.
^^^I'm higher than you....*dream sticks his tounge out at durvasa* <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you are going to argue Wade is the best player in the league and specifically better than Kobe what criteria are you using to draw this conclusion? Statistically on offense it's a wash between these two. Kobe finished with a higher PER 28.3 to 28.0 for Wade. Defensively Kobe is the better player no argument there. So what makes Wade better than Kobe usually comes down to a person's opinion because the stats don't really back it up in his favor? During the regular season the Lakers had a better record against the elite teams in the league. The Heat didn't have a single win against the top Western Conference teams in the regular season. The Heat are playing great basketball, and Wade has been amazing the last two games. I think the team peaked at the opportune time and it helped them get to the Finals. However, Kobe is still the better player, and like Trench said, if he wasn't Wade wouldn't be asking for Kobe's mentorship in the offseason.</div> I see your point Shape, but D Wade's ability to constantly take it to the basket and play superior down the stretch gives him the knod imo.....it's nice that Kobe mentored him this past offseason, because it seems like it worked in Wade's favor
You guys talk about Kobe playing longer? Why should MJ and Wade be penalized because they chose a more honourable route and went to college? MJ won the national championship, while Wade knocked off a favoured Kentucky team and made it to the Final Four with a pretty worthless supporting cast. Wade is going to Kobe for mentorship on defense, an area where kobe is better, but not world's better as some are making it seem. Wade is already a great defender. Not elite, but he will be soon. On offense I'd say the two are pretty equal. Wade has got this drive to be better that MJ had and its this that separates him from Lebron, and in the next year or two, will separate him from kobe.
like I mentioned in another thread, before this series I would've said Bron > Wade....but I'm not so sure about that now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">What's there to discuss? Wade still isn't better than Kobe. He's having a great Finals, but even if Miami wins it all and Wade wins Finals MVP, he's still not on Kobe's level. When Wade can play at his current level for 10 straight seasons then the comparisons are valid.</div> Except by that time, you'd argue that Kobe's been playing at that level for 18 straight seasons (or whatever it turns out to be). The level Wade is playing at right now is as good as anything Kobe has done in the playoffs. And Wade has proven he's right with Kobe, numbers-wise, the last two seasons. I think it's quite fair to start making the comparisons now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AIRTIGHT:</div><div class="quote_post">So you realize Wade is better than Kobe yet or not?-- you talked a lot about conditioning and big hands and a bunch of irrelative facts. How can you use Kobe's shoulder injury from 3 years ago(which was his left shoulder If I remember correctly)-- his court problems his lack of strength and "physical tools to work with" as a few of the excuses as to why Lebron and Wade may or may not be better than him<font color=""LemonChiffon""> / </font>yet the line before you give your blessings to Kobe to strive to achieve more than <font color=""red"">Jordan</font> even if it takes <u>Twice</u> as long? Like you guys said; we're already comparing these guys to Kobe right now... eventhough this being only their third seasons. Save for a tragic career threatening misfortune these guys of course are set to have better careers than Kobe. They'll likely be noticeably distanced from him starting next year. <u>One will be the most able bodied and productive athlete in the league in years-- the other may be the reigning NBA champ and Finals MVP</u>. In their 4th season. Or the 05' Pistons. Wade out-performed Kobe measurably under similar circumstances against either team. How do you comment about Wade's physical tools like an unique advantage-- then say/imply Kobe wasn't afforded the same and therefore must compensate? You guys we're just saying Kobe was much more athletic than <font color=""red"">Jordan</font>-- and that guy didnt have too much trouble compensating. Wade is also lighter and shorter than Kobe-- which is fact, as far as the stat sheet tells us. - Why do yall feel that Kobe is some desolate, frail man that cant find a gym in his area and is unable to enhance himself physically/athletically in anyway? That is what yall feel right? We havta hear the excuses from yall anytime someone's better than him. Shape- you said Kobe cant hang with Dwyane Wade athletically right? Which should be subtracted from Wade's stats or ability because it's an unfair advantage. However we shouldnt hold Kobe to these same ridiculous type rules, right? You talk about Wade's big hands like we should add points on Kobe's stat sheet because he doesn't have this advantage. - I'm looking for a post I recall on the 'Where's Kobe rank' thread where some Laker fan was pointing out Kobe's hands, wingspan and hops and quicks we're better than <font color=""red"">Jordan</font>'s himself. // wether or not that's true, it didnt change my arugment for <font color=""Red"">Jordan</font>; but If Wade were to be more gifted than Kobe in any one of these facets we gotta totally change the way we look at things huh? It's just not fair?</div> Wow you completely misquoted and worded everything I wrote out of context. Kobe Bryant attacked the rim just like Wade and LeBron did early in his career. He added to his offense by extending his range, and attacked the rim less because of his additional responsibilities on defense and to compliment Shaq's inside dominance. Right now Wade attacks the rim looking for contact because he knows he can't shoot the ball consistently enough. Once Wade extends his range I guarantee you he won't drive to the rim as much. I didn't say Wade is more athletic than Kobe, I said he's more explosive and quicker. Wade's first step is one of the quickest in the league, plus he has the strength to absorb contact and still finish. Kobe can also take a foul and finish, but he doesn't have that explosive step Wade has. I'm not saying it's an advantage for Wade either, I'm pointing out those physical attributes allow him to play a different style of offense. LeBron is just a beast, because of his combination of size and quickness. I think LeBron has a chance to be the best of All Time because of his skillset and physical advantage. He's the size of a PF with the ability to move like a guard. His court vision and natural ability to anticipate how a play will unfold is phenomenal. Kobe hurt his right shoulder, he actually played a few games shooting with just his left hand. I said statistically Kobe is in a position to pass all of Jordan's numbers. Even if he passes them, I wouldn't put Kobe on Jordan's level. Jordan is the G.O.A.T., but Kobe gets a little closer to Jordan each season. I'm interested to see how his career plays out. virve119 - No one's penalizing Jordan or Wade for going to college. I was just pointing out Kobe shouldn't be penalized for coming in straight out of high school. Kobe choose to skip playing for a college team, but he did go to UCLA for a degree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Except by that time, you'd argue that Kobe's been playing at that level for 18 straight seasons (or whatever it turns out to be). The level Wade is playing at right now is as good as anything Kobe has done in the playoffs. And Wade has proven he's right with Kobe, numbers-wise, the last two seasons. I think it's quite fair to start making the comparisons now.</div> It is fair to compare, and there's two comparisons up there Kobe at 24 was better than Wade at 24, and Kobe this year was better than Wade this year. Offensively Kobe was a little better statistically, defensively Kobe was better by a significant margin. The original argument was in reference to their careers. He said Wade is already better than Kobe, which I completely disagreed with. Kobe improves his game every season, his career is not on a decline, he just continues to peak. Next season, I expect Kobe to be an even more efficient player than this past season. Assuming the team keeps the core players around, Kobe will do a lot more play making and have less games where he needs to go for 40 plus for the team to have a chance to win.
Wow i posted this thing like a year ago, back then i didn't really believe wade was better than kobe and right now based on just skills kobe would still rank ahead but i bet ask any GM or most coaches who would they take for their team and they would say wade and not just for youth kobe has quite a few years left but for his team play and his effort. I know they had different roles but in kobe's 3 appearances in the finals i don't remember a game where he has come close to what wade has been doing on the largest stage.
^^^yep....I mean Kobe had some great games in the finals, but nothing of the magnitude that wade is showcasing right now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">^^^yep....I mean Kobe had some great games in the finals, but nothing of the magnitude that wade is showcasing right now.</div> Kobe won all his rings against the best defensive team in the nba in Dallas right?
Dallas has probably just as good or if not better defense as any of the teams the lakers beat for their titles..............Pacers, Sixers, and Nets weren't great defensively (or great period, for that matter).....Kobe never played as good as D Wade is playing right now in the finals.....case closed.
Would Wade have taken no shots in the 4th qtr in game 7 against the suns? No...... So im going with Wade. Wade is smarter than kobe. Physically they are about the same taking in consideration kobes height and wades hands. Wade just has more Heart. Kobe is the most skilled guard in the league but right now Wade is just Sick.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TopLake:</div><div class="quote_post">Top 5 Kobe haters: 1. AIRTIGHT 2. THE DREAM 3. Durvasa 4. SHAQ 5. Raja Bell</div> Damn, I just missed the cut.
Dalla is a far better team than any the Sixers, Nets and Pacers. The Sixers may have been the worst team I've ever seen in the finals, because the East was so ridiculously weak.
