<div class="quote_poster">Quoting K8B:</div><div class="quote_post">Just to inform phunDamentalz, in Wade's first year, Lamar was the first option in Miami. He led them to that seaosn, with Wade as the second man. Wade had a great playoff run though and got the recognition.</div> I love wade, but its incorrect to say wade was the team's leader during his rookie season. It was odom with help from wade.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">I love wade, but its incorrect to say wade was the team's leader during his rookie season. It was odom with help from wade.</div> Okay the way i remember it was it was Lamar Odom's team during the regular season, and Dwayne was the basically talk-of-the-league rookie similar to how Chris Paul is now. Then the playoffs hit, Lamar shrunk into the background and Dwayne took over the team. WHich tells you everything you need to know about both guys - although i'm probably being too harsh on Lamar ...
Lamar was the reason they made the post-season. If it wasn't for him, Wade wouldn't of had national exposure during the play-offs, because they wouldn't have been there. Wade had a hell of a run though in the post-season, that's why he gets more credit than Lamar. Odom didn't disappear, Wade just stepped it up.
John Hollinger makes a very compelling case for Dwyane Wade as MVP this season. By individual numbers, he's been the best player in the league overall this season, plus he's on a top-5 team. He's definitely been the most overlooked MVP-candidate this year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">D Wade also had Lamar Odom and Caron Butler in his rookie year and had shaq in his second. Lebron had....well big z</div> Lebron had Ilguaskas, and Boozer, to say Lebron had a lesser supporting cast as a rookie would be stupid, because he didn't. Also when Wade was a rookie, Butler had the worst year of his career because he was injured, so that's a very bad example. Very bad... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade hasn't proven himself, to me, without Shaq. Once Shaq leaves or retires, Wade will struggle a lot worse than Kobe Bryant did his first season without Shaq. Why? Wade doesn't have a strong jumper. His game is based off of driving to the hoop, that will be a lot harder without Shaq. </div> Wouldn't driving to the hoop be easier without Shaq clogging the lane? Wade is not an outside shooter. What Shaq changes is not driving to the hoop, what he changes is that when he's not there for a whole game, Wade will have to take more shots [in theory at least he was only taking 1 more FGA/G when Shaq was out], and force a few more, unless he get's another nice option. Also people underatte Wade's mid-range game, it's far from being bad. People also said in his rookie season that he wouldn't be able to just keep driving if teams step back off him, and it's yet to work. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People really need to stop ignoring the team Wade has had around him throughout his career so far as opposed to players Lebron has had around him. Its getting a little annoying with people making that same point over and over and never acknowledging that Wade has been on good teams, Lebron has had Zydrunas Ilgauskas and .... basically nobody else.</div> Last season people argued that Ilguaskas was better than Odom when Kobe's team wasn't doing good, yet the argument for Wade making the playoffs is that he had Lamar Odom? Carlos Boozer 03-04 >>>>>>>>>>>> Injured Caron Butler 03-04 who was a sophomore and having a terrible year. Lebron also had Jeff McInnis, and Wade's other guy was Eddie Jones, not Butler. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lamar was the reason they made the post-season. If it wasn't for him, Wade wouldn't of had national exposure during the play-offs, because they wouldn't have been there. Wade had a hell of a run though in the post-season, that's why he gets more credit than Lamar. Odom didn't disappear, Wade just stepped it up.</div> Lamar was not the reason they made the post-season, it was him, Jones, and Wade. Wade missed games that season, but their record with him during the season was 34-27. They won 42 games that year, they were 8-13 without him for the season. In addition to them starting slow, Wade adjusting his game was part of why they started doing good. After Oct and November where he shot 28% [3 games] amd 40%, he shot about 50% the rest of the way till April where he didn't shoot as well. The problems with him were the injuries, when he was healthy that year he was basically 18 PPG, 4-5 RPG, 5 APG on close to 48% FG. This was a rookie Wade that didn't have as good a mid-range jumper as he does now. Also another thing is that yes, he will play "worse" when Shaq is done, but even when Kobe was with Shaq, he has never played at the level Wade is right now in terms of efficiency. Kobe has never had a month where he's shot 57% FG and averaged 33 PPG, a month with 55% FG and averaged 30 PPG. He's never had a month where he's shot 52% FG and averaged 27 PPG. Wade's FG attempts in all three months, 18.5, 19.2, and 19.2. That's what Wade has done the last 3 months this season. Kobe was playing with a better Shaq, and even when LA was good and deep, and he didn't have to carry the team offensively and defensively, he never even shot a 50% eFG. We have to take into account that he takes a lot of three's, that's why I said eFG%, not raw FG%. Even Kobe's best ever TS%, is not as good as Wade's FG% this last month. This season without Shaq: 27.7 PPG | 44% FG | 6.9 RPG | 6.5 APG | 2.31 SPG | 3.4 TPG | 10.9 FTA/G | 38.4 MPG Both Posey and Williams missed 3 games each in that stretch, though I don't think those were really big factors in much. Posey shot 45% from 3PT range, and Williams 40.2%. Haslem 50.4% FG, Zo 56.3% FG. Walker and Payton were the only ones that didn't shoot so well, Payton because Wade can't really do much to help his scoring, and Walker because he just didn't start off well, because he shot even worse in December while Shaq was back. The boos seemed to get him to play better. In the last 2 seasons without Shaq PER 40: 28.6 PPG | 6.8 RPG | 6.1 APG | 48.9% FG So he's been, roughly, 29 PPG, 7 RPG, 6 APG, 49% FG player over the course of a third of a season playing with Shaq on the bench. The Heat are 17-11 in those games. The thing that makes it different also is that teams know Shaq is there, but are basing their defensive gameplans around Wade, not Shaq. When the Heat played the Wiz, Eddie was saying, yea we know Shaq is good, but Wade is who we're concerned about.
For people who said "Wade hasn't proved anything" Wade didn't need Shaq to sweep the Wizards last year in playoffs. And if you do follow the Heat game very often, Wade excels even more without Shaq on the floor. And for those who defends LeBron for not making playoffs, it's pretty easy to make playoffs in the East. You don't even have to be .500 to make the playoffs. To me, Boozer and Z were pretty decent front lines. Actually, they were better than Odom and the undersized center Grant. So please, I know LeBron is a heluva player but saying that LeBron doesn't get help, you gotta realize that you're being biased. Or maybe you already do know, just not want to admit it.
There is no question in my mind that Wade is better than Lebron. He's a better defender, better in the clutch, and his team is also doing far better. The only thing that lebron has on Wade is more ppg. Lets not forget though, that the Heat offense runs through Shaq, not Wade. Every possession, the ball goes through Shaq, while on the flip side, for the Cavs, Lebron ALWAYS has the ball in his hands. Lebron SHOULD be averaging more points and assists, because he always has the ball. Wade also averages slightly less RPG than Lebron despite being about 4" shorter, with shorter reach and weighing less. I don't know where some of you get the idea that Lebron is as good a dfender as Wade. Wade usually guards the opposing superstar, while Lebron will never guard the likes of Kobe etc. The job of guarding the opposing team's best player always falls on Snow. All this without mentioning that Lebron is so anti-clutch. The Cavs are terrible at protecting 4thQ leads (look what happened against Dallas), he sucks at making FTs, especially in the clutch (where he airballed one awhile ago), and, unless I'm mistaken, he's yet to hit a big game-winning or tieing shot this year. Wade on the other hand has hit multiple big shots and single-handedly brought his team back to beat the best team in the league this year. For those of you who use the "he's only 21" or "he'll learn to hit those big shots" excuses, you make me laugh. You can't learn killer instinct. Sorry. Melo is only a few months older, and look what he's doing in the clutch. Wade is only in his 3rd year, and he's insanely clutch. Even Ben Gordon is more clutch than Lebron. Lebron chose not to go to college because he wanted the money over the NCAA experience, and it hurt him. If he had gone to college he could have gotten experience in those big game situations, and he might be hitting more of those shots. As for Lebrons supporting cast, he's working with and worked with a lot better than what Kobe has. BigZ is in my opinion a top 3 center in this league, and he's putting up about the same numbers as Shaq. Boozer, Miles, Z, McInnis > Odom, injured Butler, EJ. As for this year, a supporting cast of Snow, Jones, Murray, Hughes, Gooden, Marshall and Z is pretty damn good. Too bad Hughes was injured, but even with Hughes, they should have been doing a lot better. Wade does have a good cast, but they're not that good. He's got Shaq who is out of his prime, can't hit a FT, and is putting up similar numbers to Ilgauskas, a few old, washed up players in Zo and Payton, some chuckers in Williams (who is having a terrible year) and Walker, and some decent role players in Haslem and Posey. Not much better than what Bron's working with.
LeBron's a better passer, rebounder, and overall scorer. Wade is a better defender, and has better shot selection. They're both great players (1st team All-NBA caliber, in my opinion), but I still think LeBron is the better player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">There is no question in my mind that Wade is better than Lebron. He's a better defender, better in the clutch, and his team is also doing far better. The only thing that lebron has on Wade is more ppg. Lets not forget though, that the Heat offense runs through Shaq, not Wade. Every possession, the ball goes through Shaq, while on the flip side, for the Cavs, Lebron ALWAYS has the ball in his hands. Lebron SHOULD be averaging more points and assists, because he always has the ball. Wade also averages slightly less RPG than Lebron despite being about 4" shorter, with shorter reach and weighing less. I don't know where some of you get the idea that Lebron is as good a dfender as Wade. Wade usually guards the opposing superstar, while Lebron will never guard the likes of Kobe etc. The job of guarding the opposing team's best player always falls on Snow. All this without mentioning that Lebron is so anti-clutch. The Cavs are terrible at protecting 4thQ leads (look what happened against Dallas), he sucks at making FTs, especially in the clutch (where he airballed one awhile ago), and, unless I'm mistaken, he's yet to hit a big game-winning or tieing shot this year. Wade on the other hand has hit multiple big shots and single-handedly brought his team back to beat the best team in the league this year. For those of you who use the "he's only 21" or "he'll learn to hit those big shots" excuses, you make me laugh. You can't learn killer instinct. Sorry. Melo is only a few months older, and look what he's doing in the clutch. Wade is only in his 3rd year, and he's insanely clutch. Even Ben Gordon is more clutch than Lebron. Lebron chose not to go to college because he wanted the money over the NCAA experience, and it hurt him. If he had gone to college he could have gotten experience in those big game situations, and he might be hitting more of those shots. As for Lebrons supporting cast, he's working with and worked with a lot better than what Kobe has. BigZ is in my opinion a top 3 center in this league, and he's putting up about the same numbers as Shaq. Boozer, Miles, Z, McInnis > Odom, injured Butler, EJ. As for this year, a supporting cast of Snow, Jones, Murray, Hughes, Gooden, Marshall and Z is pretty damn good. Too bad Hughes was injured, but even with Hughes, they should have been doing a lot better. Wade does have a good cast, but they're not that good. He's got Shaq who is out of his prime, can't hit a FT, and is putting up similar numbers to Ilgauskas, a few old, washed up players in Zo and Payton, some chuckers in Williams (who is having a terrible year) and Walker, and some decent role players in Haslem and Posey. Not much better than what Bron's working with.</div> How the hell do you know you can't learn clutch? like i said earlier kobe didn't come into the league clutch his first few seasons he was still working on it. just like lebron is, the only difference is lebron has so much more media attention that its almost illegal for him to screw up on anything. All players comming out of highschool need time to develop, it took kobe a good 3 years, it took KG a good 3 years, why should lebron be the exception?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron's a better passer, rebounder, and overall scorer. Wade is a better defender, and has better shot selection. They're both great players (1st team All-NBA caliber, in my opinion), but I still think LeBron is the better player.</div> Passing: Tied (maybe a SLIGHT edge to LeBron) Rebounding: LeBron, of course Scoring: Tied (LeBron can hit the 3, but Wade has a better mid-range jumper) Defense: Wade, no contest Efficiency: About the same, slight edge to Wade They are both great players, but Wade is a beast in clutch and has had success in the playoffs, so he has the edge for now IMO.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">How the hell do you know you can't learn clutch? like i said earlier kobe didn't come into the league clutch his first few seasons he was still working on it. just like lebron is, the only difference is lebron has so much more media attention that its almost illegal for him to screw up on anything. All players comming out of highschool need time to develop, it took kobe a good 3 years, it took KG a good 3 years, why should lebron be the exception?</div> The same reason why you can't learn to have a killer instinct, or why you can't just learn to be really athletic, or learn to have court-vision or be a smart player. You're born with it. You either have it or you don't. Kobe was never the main option on his team in the early years like Lebron was. All of you are talking about that one game where he air-balled those shots. That was one game. I'm not sure about who took the big shots for the Lakers in Kobe's early days or what percentage of big shots Kobe hit, but in his early days, he was the third option behind Shaq and EJ. He wasn't the leader or the main option like Lebron. As for KG, I don't know what you're talking about. He never has been clutch, and he still isn't.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">The same reason why you can't learn to have a killer instinct, or why you can't just learn to be really athletic, or learn to have court-vision or be a smart player.</div> Can't learn to be a smart player. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron's a better passer, rebounder, and overall scorer. Wade is a better defender, and has better shot selection. They're both great players (1st team All-NBA caliber, in my opinion), but I still think LeBron is the better player.</div> Yup, I'd say they're about tied as players right now with Lebron just needing more experience to get some intangible things Wade has over him. I think they're about equal scorers and playmakers, while Lebron is a better outside shooter and rebounder, and Wade a better defender and smarter player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Passing: Tied (maybe a SLIGHT edge to LeBron) Rebounding: LeBron, of course Scoring: Tied (LeBron can hit the 3, but Wade has a better mid-range jumper) Defense: Wade, no contest Efficiency: About the same, slight edge to Wade They are both great players, but Wade is a beast in clutch and has had success in the playoffs, so he has the edge for now IMO.</div> I think in terms of playmaking they're tied, so you could say they're tied, but Lebron has better court vision, and is the more skilled passer, though that doesn't always mean you'll get more assists. I think Lebron's defense has been a little underatted this season, he's been average from what I've seen, though Wade definately has the edge there. I also think Lebron not being clutch is overatted, yea he's not the best at hitting game winners, and he's had some bad plays, but down the stretch, he's really not that bad. Didn't Pierce miss FT's against Milwaukee a few games ago too? Not on the same level, but people need to cut the guy some slack.
there is not a gap between them 2 i think the better player is D-Wade i still like lebron but if you look at who is better in getting the ball down court and everything you have to say Dwayne wade
