Well, so much for Larry Riley as GM

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by jason bourne, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. philsmith75

    philsmith75 JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,580
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    This is the real world, where relationships matter. Lacob's son interviewed and was hired by Kerr, that's huge.

    Pritchard may be good but the stories that came out of Portland about his ego and inclination to blame others, including his supervisors (the owner), would tell me to take a pass on him.
     
  2. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Enterprise Architect
    ...And with Rumors swirling about Riley coming back to the bench I wouldn't be surprised to see Lacob's buddy Erik Spoelstra as coach. That is, unless Smart really shows something this season.
     
  3. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Spoelstra is another guy I don't want. Like Kerr, I don't know much about him but I haven't been impressed. Sticking with Smart and Riley may not be the best long term solution but up to this point they've actually surprised me and if we're going to replace them it better be for someone who is absolutely better.

    I fucking hate Pat Riley and didn't trust the Spoelstra promotion from the moment I saw it. IMO Pat Riley knows its going to be easy to shove him out whenever he wants which is why he just promoted him instead of hiring someone with more prestige and experience from another organization. We all know whats coming in Miami and we have ever since they landed the big three.

    It looks like Kerr has made a few good moves but those didn't exactly knock my socks off. Landing Dragic was great but while Dragic is a good player hes a career reserve/role player. To be honest I don't give him much credit for picking up Grant Hill- Hill wanted to play for a contender and didn't have many offers. I'm sure plenty of teams would have taken him but I think it was as much Hill's choice to go to the Suns. I know the owner was a real prick who wanted to dump salary but HOLY SHIT that Kurt Thomas trade was BAD. I can't see how the best deal to move KT (whose stock was pretty high at the time) was to trade two first rounders with him. Even if everyone knows you're dumping him I think you could do better than that. I suppose picking up J-Rich was a good move but its not a great one IMO. That team was very good with Bell and Diaw (even though Diaw was sucking his last year or so there) and I'm not sure that I think they were better when they landed JR. Clearly Dudley was a nice addition in that trade too. Porter sucked. Shaq move wasn't good- I can't remember, did Marion ask for a trade or did Kerr just do that out of nowhere?

    In any case its hard to judge off of that body of work. He had a contender already when he got the roster. His owner forced him to cut a lot of cap and make a lot of moves he surely didn't want to make. He made a few splashes via trade but to me the team wasn't any better than it had been previously- even at the time as much as I liked J-Rich for what he did in GS I know hes not a great SG. Scores well, shoots well, rebounds well but can't handle, pass, play defense, get to the rim, hit FTs, etc. Bell was declining but he was excellent in Phoenix- its probably easy to argue that J-Rich is the better player but I'll take Raja's efficient 14-16 ppg with excellent defense on my contender over J-Rich's 20-22 ppg. Just my opinion though. The Shaq trade was a risk and while he actually had a good season there the team seemed worse than it had been previously.

    I guess my point is that hes made some good and some bad moves. Overall though I don't think we can conclude that hes better than Larry Riley based on their respective bodies of work. Their situations were a lot different as Kerr inherited a contender full of veterans. Riley got a bottom level team filled with chuckers with bloated contracts. Kerr's situation probably makes it somewhat hard to land many pieces given all the key pieces already in place with big contracts. Was Kerr the GM when they had that playoff series with the Spurs here Amare and someone else stepped on the baseline after Nash got clotheslined and they got suspended because IMO that was their best team. All the moves Kerr made after that produced a worse team IMO. Riley at least had some pretty high draft picks to work with and some other young talent to maneuver- but he also had a lot of losers on crappy contracts he had to clear out. And Riley has had half of the time that Kerr had with the Suns.

    Ultimately IMO its hard to find many things that Riley has done wrong. Trading Beli for George was awful but thats the only clearly horrid move he made so far. Perhaps he overpaid Lee but if you look at other PFs around the league its a pretty fair contract. Its still incomplete as we need to see what he does with the expirings and/or cap space and how Udoh turns out but so far hes been pretty good landing Curry and Lee, Wright and Amundson in FA, not moving Monta last season, etc.
     
  4. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Enterprise Architect
    Marion asked for a trade, and was looking for a huge deal, which wasn't given even though the Suns were on pace to make a push for a title run and many people wanted to just give it to him. You can't really just look at the moves 1 by 1. He had a plan, moved some pieces around, and the end product made it to the conference finals. Now I don't think Kerr was in the top 10% of GMs, but I think he was moving in the right direction. I prefer him to Riley any day of the week. As for Spoelstra, I'm not impressed either, but the connection to Lacob is there. I was just saying that I could easily see that Duo in the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  5. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I could see it too just based on Lacob liking Kerr personally but I don't prefer it. Perhaps Kerr is an upgrade, but if he is I'd say itso nly a marginal one (if at all). If we're going to shitcan Riley for no reason it better be for someone with a damn good track record IMO.
     
  6. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Enterprise Architect
    Devil's advocate here: The good reason may be just to get Owner, Coach and GM on the same page. If they can do that, the collective sum of the parts may be greater than the individual pieces. Who knows. I'd love to see a franchise without traces of the previous regime.
     
  7. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Certainly logic tells you that it makes sense for the new owner to put in a new regime. But has Riley not adapted well? Seems like based on both Riley and Lacob's comments (both pretty notorious straight shooters too from what I can gather) the really came together quite nicely. Seems like they kind of are on the same page as it sounds like Riley made the Lee trade and when Cohan asked Lacob if he was ok with it Lacob said he was screaming "YES!". Same goes for the rebounding emphasis and what not. I still wonder how much Lacob had to do with the Amundson and Lin signings- both late season signings when it seemed to be known that Lacob was the new owner. Both signings where we didn't necessarily overspend but we did outbid other clubs and landed thee guys by adding extra years, options, and/or salary to their contracts- something I don't think we would have done before Lacob.

    Its definitely awkward that Riley and Smart are kind of a carry over from the Nellie/Cohan era (Rowell too). Logic tells you that Lacob should put his own guys in there but what if Riley and Smart continue to do a good job? Are their philosophies not in line with Lacobs? They don't seem to be all that much of an extension of Nellie. Riley went out and got Udoh, Lee, Amundson and shipped off AR, Turiaf, Watson, Morrow, Mags (Nellie favorite?), etc. One would think the idea behind those moves was to get the team to play with a traditional 4/5. Smart still has us going as somewhat of an up tempo team but when we had Lee our half court offense was pretty good too and the motion offense is completely new. Hes clearly stressing defense and rebounding more. Given the roster though it only makes sense to keep running it when the opportunity presents itself- likewise its hard to play good defense with very few good defensive players (and Udoh, Amundson, Lee out).

    It would be nice to know how much impact Lacob has on some of these moves. Is he the one behind signing Amundson/Lin? Is he the one pulling the strings from now on- especially with those expirings? Its hard to differentiate what moves are Riley's and what are Lacob's.
     
  8. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,416
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Law enforcement
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    You got selective memory, CH. The Suns already were a playoff team before Kerr got there with Mike D'Antoni. I'd say it was Nash, Stoudemire, maybe Shawn Marion (He was still good and then went downhill), and the bench players like Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa and Raja Bell who continued to get the Suns deep in the playoffs. Terry Porter was a mess and Kerr got lucky getting Alvin Gentry. No doubt the Suns were still a good team, but they couldn't get past the Lakers. After that, they went downhill and Kerr was fired. We'll still have to see how Larry Riley does, but so far he's got the Warriors doing better than the Cohan years. He deserves a chance to continue because so far he's fine. I criticized him for not using the trade exception and trading second round picks for cash, but I think that was more Cohan's doing and not Riley. He didn't select Greg Monroe at #6 and people were scratching their head about it. We'll have to see how Udoh turns out.
     
  9. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Enterprise Architect
    That Suns teams (constructed for D'Antoni) and the team that went to the conference finals were completely different teams. He didn't overpay for players and moved others because he had pieces that could replace them. Remember that the Lakers were given the gift of Pau Gasol I don't blame Kerr for not being able to get passed them. Utah, San Antonio, Dallas, Denver were all pretty loaded teams as well.

    I don't think Riley deserves anything. He's made a few decent moves and a few bad ones. I'm not sold on Kerr, but he's head over heels better than Riley, IMO. Of course, if you can find someone better, then do it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2010
  10. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,416
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Law enforcement
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    I do agree with you on getting the owner, management and coach on the same page, CH. This should include the players, too, into believing in the team and organization. Those are the things championships are made of, but I'm getting ahead of myself. For now, we should get rid of Robert Rowell (He reminds of Dr. Chilton who takes care of the worst asylum in the US. The guy who Hannibal Lecter had for dinner.) Tim K had a good piece on why:
    "I’m thankful for Warriors’ GM Larry Riley, who, as MT-2 reports, did not blame a vast referee conspiracy for the fact that his team is called for so many fouls.

    It’s because they’re not a very good defensive team and so often go small, which means reaching, grabbing and the piling up of NBA illegalities.

    Good to hear someone from the W’s front office utter common sense instead of the typical excuse-making frenzy.

    Speaking of common sense, yes, the W’s miss David Lee because he gives them things they don’t otherwise have, and they are 1-6 since his injury.

    But let’s also remember: In this span, the W’s have lost to Chicago (without Carlos Boozer), Denver (without Chauncey Billups and Kenyon Martin), the Lakers twice (without Andrew Bynum) and now Houston (without Yao and Aaron Brooks).

    When Lee was healthy, the W’s got a victory over Memphis (without Zach Randolph).

    You get injuries. This happens. It’s not just the Warriors who have to deal with them and often they play teams that have just as many or more injuries.

    So if you’re a team with common sense, you don’t moan and wheedle about free throws and foul calls. The Warriors don’t have players who can get to the line and they’re playing small, which forces them to reach and grab on defense.

    Also, they’re getting beat consistently on penetration, which frees shooters at the three-point line when the defense has to over-rotate.

    Sounds like Keith Smart apparently already is starting to lean towards a pattern of referee-complaining and the injury-excuse-making.

    I think he’s a good guy, learning on the job, but maybe he just can’t break the excuse habit, since he’s been with the Warriors for so long. It’s Cohan Style. It’s Rowell Style.

    In case you forgot, the Cohan Style, a very, very brief bunch of highlights:

    -Giving Stephen Jackson a huge contract extension two years before it even had to be contemplated just because he befriended the team president;

    -Bragging that the W’s just landed the hottest commodity in the market when they acquired Raja Bell (for SJax when SJax demanded a trade), only to let his contract expire quietly to save Cohan money;

    -Letting Devean George’s and Speedy Claxton’s contracts go away, too, after promising to use their contracts to acquire more talent at the deadline;

    -Giving away Marco Belinelli (now Chris Paul’s backcourt mate on 11-3 New Orleans) because there supposedly was no roster room for him because of the greatness of Anthony Morrow, only to let Morrow sign free-and-clear with New Jersey after the season.

    And excuses. Making lots and lots of excuses, from the time Garry St. Jean was making them (oh, those awful injuries to Fortson & Sura!) to the Rowell Era, which continues.

    I could go on and on and on… but that’s enough for now. It’s Cohan Style."

    Read more here:
    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawaka...-and-jeter-time/comment-page-1/#comment-72553
     
  11. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I bet our current owners know more about basketball than Cohan ever did in his entire life. I would welcome any changes to the front office that could put us in perennial playoff contention. Right strategy, right vision, execution... Of course, we'd still need luck on our side. We've gotten screwed heartily by anything ranging from the stupid draft lottery and from massive injuries. I mean David Lee went out two weeks because of a Wilson Chandler snake bite. It should have been David Lee owned Chandler's face with his elbow, end of story. On to Detroit.
     
  12. philsmith75

    philsmith75 JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,580
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I'd like to remind everyone that it takes baby steps before you get anywhere. You do not just go from doormats to the penthouse immediately.

    You want to hold out Pritchard as better than Kerr? What about the Oden selection over Durant? That's going to be remembered as a franchise killer. He was the GM, he's stuck with that as part of his history unless it comes out that he was vetoed by someone higher up.

    Spurs look like the ultimate front office right? They let Scola go and have not done a whole lot after getting Duncan, Ginobili and Parker. Roger Mason was a high priced failure; so was Jefferson last year (he's getting better though).

    There's always hits and misses. Ainge was not looking like a such great GM for the first 5 years before getting Garnett and Allen. McHale was actually looked upon as the better one with his selections of Garnett and Marbury then the run to the Western Conf. finals with Cassell, Garnett, etc.

    Mitch Kupchak? Looks great now with the Gasol trade and how Odom has fit in now. Before? Shaq trade did not look so good. Free agents? He's the guy who game Vlad $50M as a FA. Vujacic got $25M. He's not coming here nor is Jerry West.

    My point is, if Kerr's an upgrade (IMHO it is) then it should happen.
     
  13. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,416
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Law enforcement
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Interesting posts. I'm willing to give CH his take on Kerr being instrumental in getting the Suns to the WC Finals. Still, he made mistakes and got fired (or quit?) so I don't think he's ready to replace Riley. Riley made his big trade for David Lee (one of the guys I was pimping last year), Dorell Wright and getting rid of Mags. That's enough to give him more run this year. We'll have to see how Udoh does. I'm confident Riley will get us a backup PG.
     

Share This Page