<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">he averaged those gaudy numbers on a team that didn't make the playoffs; i used tell people that paul pierce was the most under appreciated player in the league until i saw him fall on his face in the olympics. same with mr. james, he wasn't even good enough to make it on the floor. and rashard lewis is soft, i really don't see how u can disagree with that. i will omit the rip hamilton selection, i'm biased from this years finals appearence. and u stat junkies need to stop livin off that stuff as sole indicators. stats don't represent what the dude has in him when times get tough, like a bruce bowen who should have been considered for finals mvp. and somebody mentioned the 56 lebron put up on the raptors, let me remind that poster that the raptors won that game. kg made it to the western conference finals, was the mvp of the league and played on really dysfunctional teams. remember tmac's ex-teammates hate the dude, i think the respect of your peers is really important.</div> Oh..my..god. If you knew, Davis was traded to the Warriors at the trade deadline. That would explain why they didn't make the playoffs. Once he joined the team, they played much better, and beat playoff caliber teams. James just finished his first season. He improved a lot over the offseason and as the season progressed. I don't see why you said Rashard Lewis sucks. Because he's soft? Great arguement. You sound like your taking away from Hamilton's game. Almost everyone in the league has had their problems with Bowen. There's a reason why he's a top 3 defensive player in the entire league. Also, about the LeBron scoring 56, I was trying to tell you that LeBron doesn't have an inconsistent jumpshot anymore, and since your a Raptors fan, you might've seen it for yourself. And you say Kevin Garnett played on dysfunctional teams, and McGrady didn't? The Magic have a repuation as one of the worst front offices. He had no one that would help him on that 03-04 team. I don't remember any of his teammates saying they hate McGrady, the only person that didn't like McGrady was probably John Weisbrod.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he averaged those gaudy numbers on a team that didn't make the playoffs; i used tell people that paul pierce was the most under appreciated player in the league until i saw him fall on his face in the olympics. same with mr. james, he wasn't even good enough to make it on the floor</div> I suppose MJ wasn't that good either when he was putting up the same kind of numbers on what was a bad Bulls team when he first entered the league. Winning around 30 games and not having much support. You don't put up those numbers without being very skilled and a great basketball player. Care to count how many players have put up 27,7 and 7 in recent memory? It is a rare list. Cavs missed out on the playoffs by 1 game, If they made It would your opinion suddenly change? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and rashard lewis is soft, i really don't see how u can disagree with that.</div> Thats arguable but even If he Is, does that matter? Lewis is a 6'10 SF who averaged 20 points and 5 rebounds a game, helped lead his team to the division title while making the all-star team. Yet he somehow sucks? where do you get your logic from? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i will omit the rip hamilton selection, i'm biased from this years finals appearence. and u stat junkies need to stop livin off that stuff as sole indicators. stats don't represent what the dude has in him when times get tough, like a bruce bowen who should have been considered for finals mvp</div> Stats play a big part in sports and obviously doesn't always tell the whole story. The fact you are bashing Rip for what? just because he played badly and struggled with Bruce Bowen? sorry to break It to you but Bruce has that effect on guys. He shuts down or contends every guard he defends. Thats one of the reasons the Spurs won the title. Rip is a very good player but he isn't a guy who is unstoppable. Bowen played him tough and Rip couldn't be as consistant as he normally Is. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">kg made it to the western conference finals, was the mvp of the league and played on really dysfunctional teams. remember tmac's ex-teammates hate the dude, i think the respect of your peers is really important. </div> What point are you actually trying to make It? apart from stating the obvious?
baron davis' weight problems have contributed to his back problems and yeah i do acknowledge he's a great athlete in spite of the dough boy frame. the weight and the back problems speak to dedication, if u want it bad enough u would say "NO" to the food.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">I suppose MJ wasn't that good either when he was putting up the same kind of numbers on what was a bad Bulls team when he first entered the league. Winning around 30 games and not having much support. You don't put up those numbers without being very skilled and a great basketball player. Care to count how many players have put up 27,7 and 7 in recent memory? It is a rare list. Cavs missed out on the playoffs by 1 game, If they made It would your opinion suddenly change? </div> big difference= jordan had nobody other than horace grant. lebron has agruably the second best centre in the east, had an elite power forward in carlos boozer, a competent point guard in jeff McCinis (sp.) and some alright complimentary players. plus, the east sucks, aside from the pistons, heat and the pacers. don't u think if jordan was given the same cavlier roster he could have led them to the playoffs or beyond in his rookie season? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats arguable but even If he Is, does that matter? Lewis is a 6'10 SF who averaged 20 points and 5 rebounds a game, helped lead his team to the division title while making the all-star team. Yet he somehow sucks? where do you get your logic from?</div> i believe ray allen led the sonics. and honestly the sonic depth of talent is hugely underrated. antonio daniels is instant offense, jerome james shows flashes of being alright, fortson is a pest, ridnour has the potential to have a steve nash effect, and i think mcmillen (sp.) is an excellent coach. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats play a big part in sports and obviously doesn't always tell the whole story. The fact you are bashing Rip for what? just because he played badly and struggled with Bruce Bowen? sorry to break It to you but Bruce has that effect on guys. He shuts down or contends every guard he defends. Thats one of the reasons the Spurs won the title. Rip is a very good player but he isn't a guy who is unstoppable. Bowen played him tough and Rip couldn't be as consistant as he normally Is. </div> last year a stats prof. told me his discipline was the most over-hyped discipline in academia. he told me its not about the numbers, its about what the numbers do. u can't quantify greatness, especially in sports where its a lot more than that. imagine if an alien race had access to nba stats and nba stats only- they would have no idea of how ben wallace dominates the game at times and same with bill russel if given only statistical information. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What point are you actually trying to make It? apart from stating the obvious?</div> if u followed the entire thread-somebody made reference to the fact that i included tmac but not kg and thats why i mentioned that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">big difference= jordan had nobody other than horace grant. lebron has agruably the second best centre in the east, had an elite power forward in carlos boozer, a competent point guard in jeff McCinis (sp.) and some alright complimentary players. plus, the east sucks, aside from the pistons, heat and the pacers. don't u think if jordan was given the same cavlier roster he could have led them to the playoffs or beyond in his rookie season?</div> I think your a year behind buddy. Boozer went to Utah and Jeff McInnis was a headcase that sucked ass on defense. All LeBron had was Ilagauskas and he is getting old and has bad feet. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i believe ray allen led the sonics. and honestly the sonic depth of talent is hugely underrated. antonio daniels is instant offense, jerome james shows flashes of being alright, fortson is a pest, ridnour has the potential to have a steve nash effect, and i think mcmillen (sp.) is an excellent coach.</div> This has nothing to do with the fact that you said Lewis sucks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">big difference= jordan had nobody other than horace grant. lebron has agruably the second best centre in the east, had an elite power forward in carlos boozer, a competent point guard in jeff McCinis (sp.) and some alright complimentary players. plus, the east sucks, aside from the pistons, heat and the pacers. don't u think if jordan was given the same cavlier roster he could have led them to the playoffs or beyond in his rookie season? i believe ray allen led the sonics. and honestly the sonic depth of talent is hugely underrated. antonio daniels is instant offense, jerome james shows flashes of being alright, fortson is a pest, ridnour has the potential to have a steve nash effect, and i think mcmillen (sp.) is an excellent coach. last year a stats prof. told me his discipline was the most over-hyped discipline in academia. he told me its not about the numbers, its about what the numbers do. u can't quantify greatness, especially in sports where its a lot more than that. imagine if an alien race had access to nba stats and nba stats only- they would have no idea of how ben wallace dominates the game at times and same with bill russel if given only statistical information. if u followed the entire thread-somebody made reference to the fact that i included tmac but not kg and thats why i mentioned that.</div> First off, Ben Wallace is better than Big Z, who doesn't know what post play is. You forget that Lebron is still three or four years younger than MJ at this point in their careers. Without Rashard Lewis I guarantee, that the Sonics wouldn't have won the division o a top 4 seed. Bill Russel scored as well, he can play offense a lot, unlike Ben who has his offensive moments. T Mac overhyped? I don't think so, just watch a Rockets game and you'll see. Why not diss KG? He wins an MVP and then he tanks the next season? You make no sense at all.
One of the main reason for the sonics vast improvement from two years ago to last was Rashard Lewis. He improved dramitcally in every facet of his game. without him they probably wouldn't of even made the playoffs. And you still haven't given explanation as to why he sucks, or why his soft for that matter, and then you downplay his importance to his team (he was an All-Star for a reason you know). Also I don't think Baron's weight is an issue any more. He looked alot skinnier last season, and just the fact that your reason for putting him on the list was because of his weight is just plain stupid. And might I add, He lead the warriors to 18-10 record after acquiring acquiring him (or something close to that). The Warriors will make the playoffs next season and will be largely because of Baron Davis's great play.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">big difference= jordan had nobody other than horace grant. lebron has agruably the second best centre in the east, had an elite power forward in carlos boozer, a competent point guard in jeff McCinis (sp.) and some alright complimentary players. plus, the east sucks, aside from the pistons, heat and the pacers. don't u think if jordan was given the same cavlier roster he could have led them to the playoffs or beyond in his rookie season?</div> Lebron had no more help than MJ did when he first started out but you were clearly missing the point. Fact is doesn't matter what supporting cast you have, you have to be great to put up the numbers he did this year. If It was all down to because he was on a team than missed the playoffs, why did no one else do It? why has only Larry Bird,Oscar and MJ basically only done It? care to explain why no one else came close to putting up those numbers? Just shows how little you know when It comes to the Cavs when you still think Carlos Boozer is on that team. Mcinnis is not a very good player, he a decent role player at best. Big Z was the only guy who Lebron could really depend on. Lebron had no shooters to help his game which made It even more difficult for him to put the numbers he managed to put up. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i believe ray allen led the sonics. and honestly the sonic depth of talent is hugely underrated. antonio daniels is instant offense, jerome james shows flashes of being alright, fortson is a pest, ridnour has the potential to have a steve nash effect, and i think mcmillen (sp.) is an excellent coach.</div> Where did I say he led them? I said he helped them and was a huge part in their success. Which he was. The Sonics wouldn't of had anywhere near the type of year they had without him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">last year a stats prof. told me his discipline was the most over-hyped discipline in academia. he told me its not about the numbers, its about what the numbers do. u can't quantify greatness, especially in sports where its a lot more than that. imagine if an alien race had access to nba stats and nba stats only- they would have no idea of how ben wallace dominates the game at times and same with bill russel if given only statistical information. </div> You judge a player on stats and impact, you clearly don't realise how big an impact Rip has on the Pistons team. He has been the Pistons most consistant scorer and player the last two post seasons and regular season. He was the man who led the Pistons into the finals last year and came up big again this year. When Pistons had injury troubled during the playoffs last year It was Rip who came up big hitting the big shots and leading the team. If you only watched his games you would realise this.
Deception, do you even knoe what hype is about? Have you ever seen Reshard Lewis, Joe Johnson, or Tony Parker in an allstar game? Hype is about recognition, and IMO, recognition, in the NBA, comes from a few things. One of them is the allstar game because it tells us who the fans think are the best and who the coaches think are the best. Another is through the media. Several players on your list are NOY hyped and are underrated because they play well and do not get the recognition for it. Sure, Lewis isn't a beast on the court, but he is not hyped up by the media or fans, so how is he over hyped? I agree that Yao is over hyped at this point in his career and Lebron too. Yao is soft but will hopefully improve. And Lebron is still very young. Not to mention, Lebron is extremely talented (no matter how much hype he receives). In case you didn't know, MJ's weakest skill as a young player was his jumpshot. After improving it, it was his strongest asset. How can you attack Lebron just because his shooting isn't exceptional yet, especially at his age. Get your facts right Deception, and maybe you ought to choose better words. The word HYPE has made you look like a fool because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
To be honest, what irks me is your lack of explanation for these picks. First of all I don't know where you got that Rip Hamilton takes 30 shots a game, in fact, he takes a little over half of that per game (15.3 shots a game), which actually is part of the reason why Rip is a great player in this league because he can score twenty a game by only taking around 15 shots and going to the line around five times a game. I don't know where you got Joe Johnson leding the league in three pointers either, he isn't even one of the top 15 players in three pointers attempted. Maybe you got him confused with Q? Who knows...
To tell ya the truth i think Michael Jordan was a bit too hyped at times too. He did shoot a lot of shots but always lead his team to victory. To me Magic Johnson would have been the G.O.A.T if he had finished his career without the whole AID thing. Magic Johnson was a playmaker and almost didnt make any mistakes while he was out on the court. Ive seen some Bulls games on NBATV and Jordan isnt as great as ya think he is. OK, he hit a lot of game winners but Magic Johnson would have been the greatest ever if he had finished his career like Jordan did.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">i can't stand the hype, all these players that receive the hype and do nothing with it. i might be in the minority but lebron james doesn't impress me. really outside of freakish athleticism- the kid doesn't have high skill level . his shot is inconsistent and thats being complimentary, he plays out of control at times, his man to man defense his porous and him changing agents exemplifies its more about the show (endorsements, money, celebrity) than the game. dwayne wade is the best player out of that 03 draft class and he doesn't receive a tenth of the notriority of lebron. about tmac, this dude hasn't even got out of the first round and yet he's a top 10 player? give me a break. heres a list of players that i think receive too much hype aside from the two aforementioned: (1) dirk-the great white hype thats never delivered in the playoffs (2) baron davis -too fat to be taken seriously (bad back) (3) lamar odom- he sucks (4) tony parker- he plays alongside two great players (duncan, ginobli) (5) vince carter- when times get tough, his mom does his talkin (6) steve francis- a candidate for the lowest basketball i.q. (7) joe johnson-he led the league in threes playing alongside (nash, amare) (8) rip hamilton-20 points easily on 30 shots (9) cwebb-the knee might rehab better if he actually lost some weight (10) yao- the year of the yao was like 2 years ago (11) rashard lewis- falls in the lamar odom category (12) brad miller- i like his game but spends too much time on the IR (13) darko-do i really have to explain the rational behind this selection? (14) rasheed wallace-i like the dude but doesn't show up for the big games (15) sammy d- too raw</div> I`ll forget about how inaccurate most of your facts are but i cannot allow your sleight on baron davis`s weight When he is fully wound and playing on a team with other viable scoring options DAVIS IS THE BEST PG IN THE LEAGUE BAR NONE u say he is fat but he banged the nastiest dunk i`ve ever seen on KG (you all know what i mean!!! most of the top flight players in the league if asked who`s game they admire will say davis`s,i`ve seen interview with steve francis when he said the only player he cant do nothing with is davis. wait and see how well he does this season now that he has j-rich,troy murphy who can make shots.....the teams he played on in NO and CHARLOTTE were abysmal and he was forced into an iverson/marbury type role of having to put up 20+ a game and bring the ball up with teammates who were useless
the best PG in the league can shoot over 40%, Davis can't, he jacks up shots and hogs the ball, he's kinda overrated, he's top 4 - 6, but not the best.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting j0se:</div><div class="quote_post">the best PG in the league can shoot over 40%, Davis can't, he jacks up shots and hogs the ball, he's kinda overrated, he's top 4 - 6, but not the best.</div> First, wasn't Kidd arguably best PG for years? His career shooting % is 40.2, and shot sub 40% in 6 out of his 12 years career. Second, while Davis isn't shy about shooting shots, his floor games upgraded everybody's game significantly. What he did with Warriors does not described the word like 'ballhog' or 'overrated'. Not many players in the league can change 16-38 club into 18-10, including 14-5 when he started...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">i can't stand the hype, all these players that receive the hype and do nothing with it. i might be in the minority but lebron james doesn't impress me. really outside of freakish athleticism- the kid doesn't have high skill level . his shot is inconsistent and thats being complimentary, he plays out of control at times, his man to man defense his porous and him changing agents exemplifies its more about the show (endorsements, money, celebrity) than the game. dwayne wade is the best player out of that 03 draft class and he doesn't receive a tenth of the notriority of lebron. about tmac, this dude hasn't even got out of the first round and yet he's a top 10 player? give me a break. heres a list of players that i think receive too much hype aside from the two aforementioned: (1) dirk-the great white hype thats never delivered in the playoffs (2) baron davis -too fat to be taken seriously (bad back) (3) lamar odom- he sucks (4) tony parker- he plays alongside two great players (duncan, ginobli) (5) vince carter- when times get tough, his mom does his talkin (6) steve francis- a candidate for the lowest basketball i.q. (7) joe johnson-he led the league in threes playing alongside (nash, amare) (8) rip hamilton-20 points easily on 30 shots (9) cwebb-the knee might rehab better if he actually lost some weight (10) yao- the year of the yao was like 2 years ago (11) rashard lewis- falls in the lamar odom category (12) brad miller- i like his game but spends too much time on the IR (13) darko-do i really have to explain the rational behind this selection? (14) rasheed wallace-i like the dude but doesn't show up for the big games (15) sammy d- too raw</div> So JJ goes from one of the most underrated players in the league to one of the most overated. You must be talking about Q here!? JJ is an all around great player who does not get much attention (similar to Marion). It is sad when a player like Q is not on this list and a great up and coming player like JJ is. Also your analysis on many of these players is off. I'll agree some are overhyped but your reasoning is lacking.
if ur gonna mantion these guys, why not mention Marbury, what's he ever won? He's been traded three times, but you mention Rashard Lewis, and Tony Parker? You baffle me.
I hate hearing guys talk bad about players because their not the greatest. Most of these guys are all stars. There is never 30 greatest players in the nba at once. There is always les than a handful of greats and dozens of allstars. And all players have skills they must work on to get better. Just ripping a bunch of players doesnt make you seem like they know what you are talking about. You sound kind of bitter. They make more money than everybody, get over it.
I first have to say, you probably have watched hardly any basketball, because you sound like you dont know anything about these players, or have watched one game and made assumptions from it. 1. Baron Davis is fat??? Never noticed...he may have a stocky frame, but he's fat?? Have you seen Oliver Miller? HES fat, Baron Davis isn't. 2. Chris Webber needs to lose weight?Ok, seriously.....I have never heard someone say that Webber is overwieght. His knee wont recover because it cant get any better! Most players' knees dont recover from the injury that he had. I think he should have tried and worked his game around it, but thats beside the point. 3. Ok, Dirk doesn't deliver, but what hype are you talking about? 4. Lamar Odom sucks. Exhibit A on you not having any idea what your talking about. I should hardly have to make an argument. He had a rough last season, but did you by any chance see him pla for the Heat? Probably not.... 5. Tony Parker doesn't get hype, he gets all the recognition he deserves. He plays very well somenights, but gets shut down on others, but theres no hype. 6. OK, Vince is at times over-hyped, but I know you would shut your mouth if the Nets had a better team next year and they went deeper into the playoffs. 7. Joe Johnson... Never heard a word of hype about this guy, but I wonder why you would think hes overrated? Yeah he plays with Amare and Nash, but are you saying if a player performs well on a team because of his team/teammates, he doesn't deserve credit? That makes no sense. 8. Rip Hamilton? Thats ridiculous 9. Yao Ming: I agree, overhyped, buts thats not really his fault 10. Rashard Lewis definitely does not suck, I dont need to make an arguement of that 11. Brad Miller is a generally underrated center, and has never seen hype except in Sacramento Newspapers, so am I missing something? 12. Darko is hardly hyped, but he hasn't gotten much of a chance to prove himself. No one really knows how good of a player he is except Pistons staff. 13. Rasheed Wallace isn't the only player that doesn't show up for big games, so you've really got nothing on him there. 14. Dalambert? Hype? Most people dont even know who he is! The only thing I thing I see is a fresh young center who got a good career ahead of him. I think that Lebron is overhyped, but he definitely isn't lacking skill. The only thing I dont really like about his game is he loses confidence in his teammates, hogs the ball, then makes bad decisions. Dwayne Wade IS the best player out of 03. No one seemed to watch the Heat during his first season, or see how good he was, so I though it was funny when people were saying the guys sould get MIP. He showed the skill from day 1. He should have ran away with the ROY award, but with LeBron being insanely overhyped, thats what happens. McGrady gets a lot of undeserved criticism just because hes a favorite target. He has very much proved himself this year theres no arguing that. 13 points in 35 seconds in that game is just unbelievable.....and he performed like a leader should in the playoffs. The reason the Rockets lost is because TMac and Mike James were usually the only ones showing up to the games. And what is this garbage about KG? Dont bring up KG just because you think he deserves criticism more than someone else.. Do you know anything about KG and the Timberwolves this last season? Does anyone seriously need to give you an explanation ? Dont bring up KG if you dont know what your talking about because if theres one player that doesn't deserve that criticism, it's Garnett.
few lessons in english and etiquette!!! (1) i knew boozer departed in free agency to the JAZZ, hence the use of the verb "had" (2) hype=exaggeration built on peripheral considerations instead of substance. so joe johnson and tony parker are benefactors of the hype machine because they play on great teams- on any other team they are scrubs. example: joe johnson in boston. (3) this rumour that i don't follow basketball is absurd, i think the source of the rumours should reveal himself. this is absolute slander and i hope the jbb staff takes action to curtail this.
