<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post"> this is absolute slander and i hope the jbb staff takes action to curtail this.</div> Or not One has to assume that, based on the things your saying about these players.
lol this thread is the biggest joke ever. I love the alien race perspective lol. I agree with Allnet about Deception's arguements of "Lamar Odom - He sucks" Rashard Lewis - Refer to Odom Baron Davis is fat Amazing analysis of Odom and Baron Davis. lol I think its pretty futile to argue with a guy that can't really back it up or give intelligent reasoning to his posts. And if Deception says stats are useless via the alien race perspective, how can you Deception back up anything you say? I don't see any links, nor do I expect any lol.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting C.K.:</div><div class="quote_post">To be honest, what irks me is your lack of explanation for these picks. First of all I don't know where you got that Rip Hamilton takes 30 shots a game, in fact, he takes a little over half of that per game (15.3 shots a game), which actually is part of the reason why Rip is a great player in this league because he can score twenty a game by only taking around 15 shots and going to the line around five times a game. I don't know where you got Joe Johnson leding the league in three pointers either, he isn't even one of the top 15 players in three pointers attempted. Maybe you got him confused with Q? Who knows...</div> i agree wit u but joe johnson is second in three pointers this year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 1. Fred Hoiberg (Minnesota Timberwolves) 70 /145 .483 2. Joe Johnson (Phoenix Suns) 177/ 370 .478 3. Cuttino Mobley (Sacramento Kings) 150 /342 .439 4. Mike Miller (Memphis Grizzlies) 140 /323 .433 </div> did u mean leader in percentage or leader in attempts??
I think your problem with the NBA is something that is prevalent in all professional sports. You don't like players being rewarded and applauded when they haven't proven themselves as winners. However, I think all sports have these types of players: players that can't lead, that can't fit into a system, that don't play well with a team. I agree with some of the players you outlined, but I think that your post contradicted itself at times. I also think that you would benefit by watching better basketball coverage. I used to hype up the same type of players and make the same ignorant assumptions until I started to read more into the game and also participate in discussions with other intelligent basketball fans. And here is my response to your list: Lebron: I was surprised that you chose Lebron as a player that came from high school relying on athleticism. Figured Amare was a better example. He has great court vision and a good all around game. Plus he has shown dedication to improve his game. However, I do feel that at this point Wade deserves just as much hype as Lebron. I just feel that Lebron is going to warrant more attention as he gets older. Dirk: I definitely was disappointed with his performance in the playoffs. But I thought that most people noticed his poor performance and he hasn't been hyped as much since. Baron: I do agree that in the past he did not show the dedication to keep in shape. While he is a good player, I agree that he is not a leader and needs touches to produce. Odom: Well he definitely doesn't suck, he has shown skill. But he hasn't proven himself for a long enough time to be considered a star. I think he is overhyped, but feel that he still has the potential to live up to it. Parker: I thought this part was ironic, in that the other players were people that needed the ball to play well. Parker has shown that he is willing to work in a team. He could get better stats but is content fullfilling the role Popovich gives him. His image around the league is of a solid point guard, and I don't think it overhypes him. Vince: After his stint with Toronto, I think he falls in the category with Baron and Francis: good players, who can't lead and need the ball in their hands. He is overhyped, but most people now realize that he isn't a leader and needs other stars. Francis: I agree with you on this one. I don't really like Francis' game, because he masquerades as a point guard. He also isn't a franchise player. Joe Johnson: I thought he was one of the pivotal parts of the team and was not given enough credit for it. His importance showed when he was injured during the playoffs. Rip: You ommitted him so I guess you realized that he isn't overrhyped. Webber: I agree, but intelligent basketball fans recognize him for what he is. Yao: Definitely is overhyped. But that comes with being one of the only legit centers left in the league. And also being an NBA marketing tool. Rashard: He isn't overhyped and wasn't given enough credit for holding the team up through all those injuries in the playoffs. Miller: He is injured too much, but recieves enough credit for how valuable he is to the Kings. Darko: He was overhyped at the draft. Now he's pretty much a joke until he proves otherwise. Sheed: Definitely not overhyped. He was the reason the Pistons won a championship last year. Dalembert: He will be overhyped after he's given a max contract by some stupid team, but his performance in the playoffs showed that he's developing a good game. I think you had a good topic. You were going to talk about how players recieve too much hype when they havn't shown they can win. However, your list was inconsistent and contradicting. Also, I think the rumour that you don't watch basketball is actually an assumption that most of us came up with because you backed up an opinion with more opinions and exaggeration.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting R_ChutneY:</div><div class="quote_post">Baron: I do agree that in the past he did not show the dedication to keep in shape. While he is a good player, I agree that he is not a leader and needs touches to produce. </div> Are you joking? Baron is a great leader. B-Diddy doesn't need touches to produce. That is utter BS coming from you. Baron averaged 8 assists a game for the Warriors and did you see the improvement for players like Pietrus? When he got the ball from Speeedy or Fisher he was a good player, but Baron made him explosive and was able to get him the ball when he needed it and it helped. Baron is a great leader
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting J-Rich23:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you joking? Baron is a great leader. B-Diddy doesn't need touches to produce. That is utter BS coming from you. Baron averaged 8 assists a game for the Warriors and did you see the improvement for players like Pietrus? When he got the ball from Speeedy or Fisher he was a good player, but Baron made him explosive and was able to get him the ball when he needed it and it helped. Baron is a great leader</div> Yeah I definitely agree with all of this. I think a lot of people dont really know a lot about Baron because he's been a rarity on the court that past few seasons, but those are the facts. I think ( excluding an injury) that his future with Golden State is going to be much better for him and I think he will really be able to succeed as a player and play at his full potential. Hopefully soon I wont have to hear anymore "Davis needs the ball to be productive".
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">(2) hype=exaggeration built on peripheral considerations instead of substance. so joe johnson and tony parker are benefactors of the hype machine because they play on great teams- on any other team they are scrubs. example: joe johnson in boston.</div> If Joe Johnson was still in Boston, he would be a starter putting up 20 ppg. To say that he would be scrub is ignorant and completely false. Two years ago after the Marbury trade, JJ stepped up huge and to make matters worse amare was ridled with injuries that year putting more pressure on JJ to put points on the board. And he did put more points on the board, and not just by chucking up threes all day. When JJ went down in the playoffs, the Suns struggled . They were lucky to get out of the Dallas series alive, and who knows, if the Suns had him the entire Spurs series we may have had a different team hoisting the trophy this year. This kid has the complete package, and he will eventually be a star in this league.
My main issue with the original post, besides the fact that several players were listed on weak premises at best ("he sucks," "he's too fat) is that the primary argument is based on "winning." It's a generally accepted principle that basketball is a team sport, and that games and championships are won by a coordinated team effort. However, a team is composed of individual players, and as a general rule, there is some sort of correlation between the individual talent and the ability of the team to perform. Deception's definition of hype, "exaggeration based on peripheral considerations instead of substance," is difficult to apply, given that we don't know what that "substance" is supposed to be (apparently, winning.) However, individual players make individual plays and the only reason we know how these players are performing (outside of watching them) are by the stats that are kept. Hype given to individual players is generally based on their individual performance, and, although deception states that, for example, Joe Johnson and Tony Parker are overhyped because they play with good (winning) teams. However, if they weren't a big part of these teams' success, the only way they would be hyped would be if they averaged something like 35 points a game on a bad team. So, summarily, normally, players are overrated based on stats, and neither Joe Johnson nor Tony Parker, the examples listed, are especially statistically proficient, compared to their counterparts on other teams and even to their teammates.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting KG-MVP:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that Lebron is overhyped, but he definitely isn't lacking skill. The only thing I dont really like about his game is he loses confidence in his teammates, hogs the ball, then makes bad decisions. Dwayne Wade IS the best player out of 03. No one seemed to watch the Heat during his first season, or see how good he was, so I though it was funny when people were saying the guys sould get MIP. He showed the skill from day 1. He should have ran away with the ROY award, but with LeBron being insanely overhyped, thats what happens.</div>I love Wade an all, but this is not true. I did think Wade was the best overall player on both ends of the floor in that draft, and I was one of the few that thought he deserved it as much as Carmelo and Lebron, IF not for injuries. Wade only played 60 something games as a rookie, which definately hurt his chances. The injuries also affected his on court play, and his numbers too, so no, he didn't deserve it over Lebron. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting KG-MVP:</div><div class="quote_post">And what is this garbage about KG? Dont bring up KG just because you think he deserves criticism more than someone else.. Do you know anything about KG and the Timberwolves this last season? Does anyone seriously need to give you an explanation ? Dont bring up KG if you dont know what your talking about because if theres one player that doesn't deserve that criticism, it's Garnett.</div> Deception was supporting KG, so I don't know what to say to this post 1) Dirk: It is true that he has had some problems in the playoffs, but he's not overatted. This season, he actually moved closer to being an average defender, and is improving parts of his game that are lacking. 2) Baron Davis: Davis is actually a little overweight, he is a strong player, and has the body of an NFL running back, but he hasn't put effort into his off-season work, and it is constantly causing injury problems for him. While your explanation is a little blunt, it's actually true that Davis will not be able to be taken seriously till he can play a full season, and carry a team like he's capable of. The Hornets could've gone far the past few seasons, but Davis was many times injured by the time post-season rolled around, and unable to perform to full effectiveness. I'm a big fan of Baron, but it's true... 3) Lamar Odom: He sucks does not explain anything. Odom is a multi-talented player, and while he'll never be a franchise player, or a big scorer, he's a guy that can be a great second option, and do many things on your team. He's not getting any hype, so he's not overhyped, though I think he was after the 03-04 season and being traded to the Lakers, but he definately does not suck 4) Tony Parker: Parker actually is overhyped. This is not about All-Star games and all that, but many people make him more than he is, an average, or at best a little above average player. Through the years, you've heard him being called a Top 5 PG, etc etc, but till now, Parker is still just a good PG, and an average player, nothing more. Him being on a great team with great players and a great coach [just like when people were calling Billups the best PG in the league for winning finals MVP] has boosted up his stock. To add to his resume, he has choked in critical moments in the playoffs, and even this year he was basically a non-factor against the Pistons. 5) Vince Carter: I don't know how he can be overhyped anymore when people constantly make fun of him and hate on him. What's he overhyped for? Being called overatted? 6) Steve Francis: I actually agree with the assesment here, Francis is a terrible IQ player. A lot of people like him because he's exciting, but he's not a player that brings you wins, and his style of play slows down the development of younger players. 7) Joe Johnson: First of all he did not league the league in three's, he was 17th in attempts, 8th in makes, and 2nd in 3PT%. He actually improved his three point shooting drastically because he was assisted on the exact same amount of three's as in 03-04, yet improved by 17.3% in his percentage. His percentage was obviously helped by that fact that his team was all about offense, and had a starting lineup where everyone was a scoring option, but he did improve as a shooter, you don't go up 17% because of a better offensive team or less defensive pressure. Secondly I thought you meant Quentin Richardson, who I agree is overatted as a shooter, but you talked about Joe Johnson in Boston? I think it's called a player improving, I'm dissapointed Deception, he was young in Boston, and he improved. In 03-04, without Nash, with Amare injured for part of the season, Joe Johnson averaged about 19.5 PPG, 5.1 RPG, and 5.0 APG in 43-44 MPG after Marbury left. 8) Rip Hamilton: He doesn't take that many shots, but he's not as efficient a scorer as some others seem to think he is. He's not really in the highest efficiency ranking of SG's. His FG% isn't bad, but considering he doesn't take or make many three's, his FG% is actually not great, and he doesn't get to the line at a great rate [but he does make a high percentage which helps him], though he get's their fairly well. His eFG% is 51.2%, compare to other guards: Iverson - 51.4%, Kobe - 54.3%, Carter - 52.8%, Redd - 52.8%, Allen - 54.1% etc.... 9) Webber: I'm not sure what to say here, I don't think losing weight would help his knee much... 10) Yao: It's true that he's actually still overhyped by people. Yao right now just doesn't have the edge to be a franchise player, or a dominant player. He can be a good second option, and a Top center while he plays, but the year of the Yao seemingly has passed. 11) Rashard Lewis: He doesn't suck either, just saying someone sucks is not much of an explanation to anything. I don't think Rashard is overhyped, but I do think he's still a little dissapointing as a overall player. A 6'10 athletic SF who only averages 5.5 RPG, and thank God he improved, 0.87 blocks a game. He's also his teams main offensive post option, and has a size advantage over his opponents in the post, yet only goes to the line 4 times a game. Rashard is soft, he plays outside too much, isn't willing to accept contact, and to add to that, is weak defensively, but still, he does not suck and is a good player. 12) Brad Miller: This is actually true, it seems like every second half of the season, Brad Miller is on the IR again. He's a pretty good player though, but I'm not sure if he's overhyped because I don't know who's overhyping him. 13) Darko: TBD 14) Rasheed Wallace: My only problem with him is that he never lived up to his potential. You're 6'11, athletic, have all the talent and skills in the world, yet you never averaged 20 PPG, or even 9 RPG in your career, pretty unimpressive to me. Outside of that, he is a good player, but he has at times dissapeared in big moments, then again, he's also produced in big games. 15) Samuel Dalmbert: I don't know who's overhyping him, but a super long, fast and athletic big who can rebound, block shots, and though not a scorer, give you 11-13 PPG, I don't know what's wrong with that. No one is calling him the next big thing, if you wanted to pick a young center who's had his moments of hype, I'd say you go with Eddy "Little Shaq" Curry.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I love Wade an all, but this is not true. I did think Wade was the best overall player on both ends of the floor in that draft, and I was one of the few that thought he deserved it as much as Carmelo and Lebron, IF not for injuries. Wade only played 60 something games as a rookie, which definately hurt his chances. The injuries also affected his on court play, and his numbers too, so no, he didn't deserve it over Lebron. Deception was supporting KG, so I don't know what to say to this post .</div> Wait, what do you not agree with about Wade? That he shouldn't of won ROY? And someone else said something like" Why not diss KG, he won mvp then tanked then tanked the season" Thats what i'm talking about.
after reading the opening post to this thread the only thing that comes to mind is "wut hav u been smoking." seriously u think that lebron averaged over 25 7 7 without much talent, when hes just joined a group of legends including mj and o robertson...to hav ur name put in the company of those players is no small feat i wont write nemore coz everything wrong with ur post has already been said...but for the future plz think before u write
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wait, what do you not agree with about Wade? That he shouldn't of won ROY? And someone else said something like" Why not diss KG, he won mvp then tanked then tanked the season" Thats what i'm talking about.</div> Oh, sorry, I thought you were reffering to Deception with the KG post. ...and yes, Wade shouldn't have won ROY, he only played 61 games as a rookie, and considering Carmelo and Lebron both put up as good or better overall numbers except for FG% where Wade destroyed them, and played 15-18 more games, no, Wade didn't deserve it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh, sorry, I thought you were reffering to Deception with the KG post. ...and yes, Wade shouldn't have won ROY, he only played 61 games as a rookie, and considering Carmelo and Lebron both put up as good or better overall numbers except for FG% where Wade destroyed them, and played 15-18 more games, no, Wade didn't deserve it.</div> Yeah, I guess your right, but I always thought that since he went deepest into the playoffs and was instumental to the Heat's success, ( Not to mention he performed great in the playoffs. Carmelo made it to 1st round but was shut down by Garnett) that he should have at least been considered the runner up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you joking? Baron is a great leader. B-Diddy doesn't need touches to produce. That is utter BS coming from you. Baron averaged 8 assists a game for the Warriors and did you see the improvement for players like Pietrus? When he got the ball from Speeedy or Fisher he was a good player, but Baron made him explosive and was able to get him the ball when he needed it and it helped. Baron is a great leader</div> He's definitely turned it around in GS, but what I said wasn't BS. He wasn't a leader or in shape for most of his time in NO. He's not overrated anymore, but I have to see him play a full season the way he played with the Warriors before I can say he's turned it around.
Well I will say this that even tho I dont agree with everything Deception is putting to the table in this post, I do agree with his overall theme of the thread. The NBA is a marketing & hype machine now, and they led alot of people into think that average players are stars ans star players are superstars. I myself has yet to be impressed with Lebron James. Lebron James is the ultimate product of the need of the NBA to replace Micheal Jordan in ratings & advertising....the NBA player skill level has been water down so much that it is easy to convince alot of people that James is more special then he really is.... And everybody always seems to get upset that Davis is veiwed by some as overatted...I myself have gotten into a few debates over how overatted this cat is...on a good team Baron Davis is at best a 2nd option on a great team he needs to be a third. His game is extremely selfish despite the fact he may give you 7+ assist a night. And the cat breaks down seemingly every key point in the season. The Hornets never really got better as a team under his rain at the point guard spot because they were an average playoff team when they had Wesley & Phils in the backcourt together and they were an average playoff team when it was Davis & Wesley together. And he most certainly is overweight, you can tell simply be the type of injuries he has year in & year out knee & back problems. Everyone is quick to call Marbury overratted but never Davis and I find that crazy myself. And Tony Parker ask all net how may times I have spotted this cat out to be highly overatted by the NBA media. But at the end of the day, he does have those rings which hold alot of wieght. There are a few that I disagree with tho most notably Rip Hamilton, I think that if you were talking about the Wizards version of Hamilton I would agree. But I think Hamilton is one of the few guys I can honestly think of that has added more phases to his game as his career has went on...I remember Rip Hamilton couldnt put the ball on the floor off the dribble to save his life in Washington. But not only has he added the ablity to create his own shot off the dribble he has also added the ablity to create for others. Also Richard Hamilton use to run from pressure situations and fold like a beach chair. But now his game has mutured and he seems to rise to the occassion continuely. I will say this that him & Billups are two of the more overatted defensive perimeter guys in this league...Ben Wallace hides alot defensively of those guys. But anyway, I have to commend you Deception on off standing by your arguements alot of people arent going to want to hear certain things about their favorites but there is definately some truth to what you are saying...
Whats irked me recently about the NBA is the way these teams have been grossly overpaying players this offseason.Bobby Simmons scored about 16-17 points per game last year and hes somehow worth around 9-10 million per year?Thats just the tip of the iceberg of course.I hope this offseason is just some kind of freak occurence and doesnt continue in future offseasons.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Whats irked me recently about the NBA is the way these teams have been grossly overpaying players this offseason.Bobby Simmons scored about 16-17 points per game last year and hes somehow worth around 9-10 million per year?Thats just the tip of the iceberg of course.I hope this offseason is just some kind of freak occurence and doesnt continue in future offseasons.</div> Yeah, you've also got Mobley and Haslem getting payed a bunch...No idea how Simmons gets 10 mil a year...it's definitely very unusual.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Tony Parker ask all net how may times I have spotted this cat out to be highly overatted by the NBA media. But at the end of the day, he does have those rings which hold alot of wieght. </div> ....well, he's not really the main reason they're getting the rings. Yea he has the rings, but he's been at best the 3rd or 4th best player both times he's won the championship.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">few lessons in english and etiquette!!! (2) hype=exaggeration built on peripheral considerations instead of substance. so joe johnson and tony parker are benefactors of the hype machine because they play on great teams- on any other team they are scrubs. example: joe johnson in boston. (3) this rumour that i don't follow basketball is absurd, i think the source of the rumours should reveal himself. this is absolute slander and i hope the jbb staff takes action to curtail this.</div> hype=exaggeration built on peripheral considerations instead of substance That's a great definition professor. Question: Who ever said that Joe Johson is overrated? He a solid player who rarely gets metioned among the elites. He played in Boston for one season, as a ROOKIE! What control do these players have over this "hype machine"? I'm a diehard Heat fan and don't like Detroit a whole lot, but I can tell you that <font color="Blue">Richard Hamilton & Rasheed Wallace </font> are great players. If anything Rip Hamilton is UNDERRATED. Baron Davis is one of the best players in the NBA, when healthy. Fat?? Samuel Dalembert overated????? You can't be serious. Most people don't have a clue who Samuel Dalembert is! <div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">this is absolute slander and i hope the jbb staff takes action to curtail this.</div> I'm sure jbb staf will take immediate action. Thanks for the lessons in english and etiquette.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Well I will say this that even tho I dont agree with everything Deception is putting to the table in this post, I do agree with his overall theme of the thread. The NBA is a marketing & hype machine now, and they led alot of people into think that average players are stars ans star players are superstars. I myself has yet to be impressed with Lebron James. Lebron James is the ultimate product of the need of the NBA to replace Micheal Jordan in ratings & advertising....the NBA player skill level has been water down so much that it is easy to convince alot of people that James is more special then he really is....</div> I think your one of the best posters on the site, and I usually agree with you, but I don't understand how you can't be impressed with LeBron. I think the majority of people agree he is hyped up a lot, but his game does all the talking. Before he even stepped foot on an NBA court, he got a enormous contract from Nike worth more than 90 Million, and the world was ready to jump on this kid if he failed. I mean, he had tons of expectations and hype to live up too, but he exceeded all of it. He went into his rookie season and took this league by storm. He joined elite company with Jordan, and Robertson by averaging 20-5-5 in his first season. Then in his second season, took his versatility to a new level averaging 27/7/7 joining MJ, The Big O, and Larry Bird to ever do so in NBA history. And the most amazing part is he has yet to turn 21 years of age. Once he improves his defense, he's going to be dominate for the next 10-15 years.
