Rumor What's going on in Portland?

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Rastapopoulos, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but that's a fantasy. Completely unrealistic. New damaged people are born and created every day. There is no decade long program that will fix all of them in perpetuity.

    There has never been any program conceived that could do that.

    I'm sorry, but you aren't even having a serious discussion now.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    really? Because your solution is not addressing part of the problem. Poor parenting.
    One of my areas of concern your models don't dive into that i have seen.
    its not fantasy. Fantasy is thinking pouring money into something without disciplined education is a solution. Its not a solution. Its a bandaid. We need solutions. Bandaids have not worked. And it starts with parental education. Not housing the homeless.

    Agreed there never has been a solution. Hence my points of contention. Who's living in fantasy land? The one who says his proposals will fix things or those who say it wont, and thus aren't interested in funding something that will not provide a sustainable solution?
    ;)
     
  3. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    Please show me any reports from landlords of shelters claiming this? I have not seen one. Are not these shelters state or government run? What landlords?

    I have not seen one report from a shelter landlord claiming addicts have moved in and stopped being destructive.
     
  4. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    They are not necessarily government run. In fact, what I have advocated for are generally not government run.

    Here is one...

     
  5. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    So again, you're moving the goal posts. Nobody said every single person would get a job and support themselves.

    This is why I have to remind you to stay on topic, as that's not what anybody is talking about.

    From my reading on the topic, the way you address poor parenting is by improving access to education, healthcare, and improved social safety net, as well as an education and rehabilitation based corrections system. I advocate for all of these, almost constantly.

    You claim it hasn't worked, but it very clearly has. And SLC found out that ending the program was for more damaging and expensive, which is why they have started it back up.
     
  6. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    This is not one. This is helping those who are also trying to help themselves dig out.

    Someone who does not want to lose a home is not the point of contention…

    Those people I have rented to have taken better care of my properties than any other people because they don’t want to lose their home and they want to prove themselves and they want a chance in life,” Adjibogoun said.

    This has nothing to do with what i said is a concern. This is helping those who want to prove themselves as a productive member.
     
  7. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    steps. One at a time. Without the first step others will trip up and fail.

    Education of parents os the first step in stopping generational cycles. Not homeless shelters.
     
  8. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    I have never proposed putting people who want no help into this kind of situation. I discussed that in an earlier post.
     
  9. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    I never discussed not helping those who want help. Remember i made a post and you quoted it???
    So whats your point? I see it as you like to argue. I already said i agree with most of what you said and disagree or draw the line at funding for those who dont want help. So what is your disagreement then that you keep coming at me with??
     
  10. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Actually, no. It worked just fine in SLC (and everywhere else it has been tried) when housing first was the first step. Educating parents takes far longer than 10 years, and is beyond the scope of this discussion.

    The parenting issue is addressed by a Nordic style commitment to education, healthcare, and corrections system. I'm all for that as well.
     
  11. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Even if parental education is the "first step in stopping generational cycles" (not necessarily stipulating that it is, but we'll go with it for now), why should that preclude cities (or Portland specifically) from attempting other steps?

    My biggest issue with the position you seem to be taking (and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you) is that it seems like you're saying that if a plan--whether PGR's or another--doesn't address the homeless crisis completely and from all angles, then it shouldn't be attempted.

    I, personally, am of the opinion that even if we're not fixing everything, it's better to improve something than to do nothing.
     
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  12. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying this fails. That's your claim. This system doesn't fund people who choose to leave or remain homeless. I never claimed it did. In fact, in my description and calculation above, I specifically kept those who didn't want help at the higher homeless level societal cost of around $50k.

    I'm explaining why you're wrong in your claim that this has failed, or is failing. That's not the same as arguing.
     
  13. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    I brought it up. Its my topic. Wtf. Lol. Who engaged with who first???

    How about you stay on topic with my original posts. I have not swayed.
     
  14. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    Fails at helping those who wont help themselves, which was the point of my posts you keep responding to and twisting it to your agenda.
    This is the fix we need.
     
  15. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    No. Those people are the vast minority of the people who need help. As SLC has already proven. Those people need a different kind of help. As I have stated over and over, every time this comes up. Housing first allows you to identify those people more easily by getting the vast majority in homes. Then you address those who refuse help, or even those who are criminals, on a case by case basis.
     
  16. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    I believe I have addressed your every concern. If not, please let me know specifically and I'll do so.
     
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  17. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    One more time. The city is in the state it is largely because of youth who want anarchism to rule. I walked the streets and had these conversations with them.
    This is what i said you responded to. If you would please stay on topic, we might get through this. I never brought up helping those who want help has or would fail. Im saying i don't want to fund the destructive life of those who refuse help. Period. Thats what i said you responded to.

    Stay on topic please. ;)

    How do we clean up the destructive ones who refuse help? I disagree with treating them the same as other homeless and i dont care if it costs more to jail them. If they refuse the help and continue to be destructive they don't deserve more help.

    i never once brought up helping those who want help fails.
    Im separating things and i don't think you are.
    How many times do i have to say i agree with most of what you say, but draw the line at helping those who don't want help and thst if we try, or continue to try , it will fail?

    im not getting the disconnect here. Unless you are only reading a portion of my posts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  18. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    Portland is a mecca for youth who want anarchy. I fully believe the percent of homeless in portland who don't want help far exceeds most other cities. Real life events have cemented this opinion.
    I should have not brought up slc because its a different city.
    There are two fold problems.
    One giving short term aid to those who want a better life and become productive. Im all for your proposals for this.
    Two getting rid of the ones hellbent on destruction and do not want to change.

    im saying portland has a high percentage of number two and pouring funding into programs will not fix this. how do we fix this?
     
  19. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    In my mind, the first step to addressing the destructive ones who refuse help is to identify them. And the first step to identifying those who refuse help is to help those who won't refuse help.
     
  20. SharpeScooterShooter

    SharpeScooterShooter SharpeShooter

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    I agree. And kind of my point. I have not seen a model or test that does this. All models can be taken advantage of by those who refuse from what ive seen and this is my point. Where is the model that helps distinguish this vs letting the destructive ones play innocent, use and abuse the system?
     

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