<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well keep in mind that Malone was hurt in the finals that year, and Payton wasn't getting significant minutes being in Phil's doghouse. But let's keep this confined to the championship teams. The role players on the Heat played a significant bigger role on that team than the Lakers role players. They were alot BETTER too. Jason Williams< Harper, Fisher, Jannero Pargo, Shaw James Posey< Rick Fox, Devon George Alonzo Mourning< Horace Grant, Medvedenko, John Salley Haslem, Walker< Horace Grant, Mark Madsen, Horry Outside of Horry or Fisher, nobody on the Lakers team was consistent contributor.</div> I think you missed a few math classes because < does not mean greater than, it means less than. 1) Jason Williams did not produce more than Harper and Fisher did for the Lakers in their runs. Jason Williams was injured through the post season, shot a measly 27% from three point range and averaged 9.3 PPG in 29.8 MPG. In the finals he shot 36% FG, 34.5% 3PT, and averaged 8.8 PPG and 4.7 APG in 31.3 MPG. <u>2000</u> Ron Harper: 8.2 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 28 MPG better defense Shaw: 5.4 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 3.0 APG, 19 MPG, better defense Fisher: 4.7 PPG, 2.0 APG, 15 MPG, better defense <u>2001</u> Fisher: 13.4 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 3.0 APG, 48% FG, 51% 3PT, 36 MPG, better defense Shaw: 4.4 PPG, 3.4 RPG, 2.7 PG, 34% 3PT, 18 MPG, better defense <u>2002</u> Fisher: 10.2 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 2.7 APG, 35.8% FG, 34.2 MPG, better defense <u>Finals:</u> 12.8 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 3.8 APG, 51.5% FG, 66.7% 3PT, 33 MPg, better defense So no, Jason Williams did not do more than those guys did, actually in the 2001 and 2002 championship run, Fisher was better than Jason Williams. I'm also happy you decided to ignore Payton and his former 20 PPG self in this, because he didn't do more than those guys either. He did about as much as a Fisher/Shaw in 2000. 2) James Posey had more impact than Rick Fox? Also did you forget Glen Rice? <u>Rick Fox:</u> 2000: 4.3 PPG | 1.7 RPG | 1.2 APG | 45% FG | 46% 3PT| 14 MPG, good defense 2001: 10 PPG | 4.9 RPG | 3.6 APG | 45% FG | 32% 3PT | 36 MPG, good defense 2002: 9.8 PPG | 5.4 RPG | 3.4 APG | 48% FG | 35% 3PT| 31 MPG, good defense <u>James Posey:</u> 2006: 7.3 PPG | 5.7 RPG | 43% FG | 42% 3PT | 27.5 MPG, good defense <u>Glen Rice: </u> 2000: 12.4 PPG | 4 RPG | 2.1 APG | 41% FG | 42% 3PT | 33 MPG So James Posey also did not outproduce these guys. Fox actually outproduced Posey the years he got starter minutes. In 2000, they had Glen Rice, and Ron Harper (G/F), so Fox was only playing 14 per. Devean George played meaningless minutes till 2003, when they lost to SA. He averaged 8.0 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 2.2 APG, 45% FG, 33% 3PT in 29 MPG, and gave them above average defense. 3) I'm not going to argue Alonzo Mourning, he is better than those guys, Alonzo is a beast, BUT, Alonzo only played 10.8 MPG in the playoffs. He had big impact in Game 6 of the finals, and once in a while here and there, but you can't compare his overall impact to guys who were playing 20+ MPG every single game. John Salley and Mark Madsen are irrelavant, they hardly played, Madsen averaged 1 and 4 MPG the years they won. On the other hand <u>Horace Grant:</u> 2000: 6.0 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 1.2 APG, solid defense Nothing special, but Alonzo in the time he played was only able to give 3.8 PPG, 2.9 RPG, and 1.14 BPG (pretty amazing). 4) Haslem and Walker vs Horry and Grant Haslem is a good defender, and so were Horry and Grant. Antione Walker isn't a factor on defense. They have that advantage. Numbers wise: <u>Haslem:</u> 2006: 8.6 PPG | 7.4 RPG | 49% FG | 29.5 MPG, good defense <u>Walker:</u> 2006: 13.3 PPG | 5.6 RPG | 2.4 APG | 40.3% FG | 32.4% 3PT | 37.5 MPG <u>Horry:</u> 2000: 7.6 PPG | 5.3 RPG | 2.5 APG | 41% FG | 29% 3PT| 27 MPG, good defense 2001: 5.9 PPG | 5.2 RPG | 1.9 APG | 37% FG | 36% 3PT | 24 MPG, good defense, clutch shots 2002: 9.3 PPG | 8.1 RPG | 3.2 APG | 45% FG, 39% 3PT | 37 MPG, good defense, clutch shots So actually your conclusion that the Lakers had no consistent contributors, and Miami did is very wrong. Fisher, Horry, and Fox were ALL consistent contributors after 2000. In the 2000 run, they had Rice, Harper, Horry, Grant, and even Fox and Fisher were contributing too. Now let's see who Miami's consistent contributors were: Haslem, Walker, and Posey. Alonzo was playing 10 MPG, and was far from a consistent contributor. Jason Williams appeared and dissapeared, whether due to injury, or just him playing badly, but could be counted too. Payton gave you the production of a Brian Shaw in his lesser productive year. No advantage there. Lastly, the Laker role players didn't have to produce as much because Shaq was scoring an extra 12-14 PPG on the Lakers. The Miami guys did have to produce more, but they still didn't even beat out the Lakers role players production. EVERYONE would rather have a conssitent 30+ PPG Shaq in comparison to an inconsistent 18 PPG Shaq than have one of their role players scoring 1 more PPG. About Iverson, he averaged 35.6 PPG against the Lakers on 40.2% FG through the playoffs that year he averaged 32.9 PPG on 38.9% FG. He was above his averages in that series, so I don't know about that. Also it was Tyronn Lue who was given credit for harrasing Iverson in that series, even though that was overblown.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting THE DREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Rock the FACT is that if Wade has a bad game Miam loses, with a dominant big man in the paint who's avg. 30 points a night and a better supporting cast, Kobe could afford to have a bad game or two....I'm not saying he had it easy, but he had it easier than Wade.</div> Wade had a few bad games in the playoffs this year, and he got contributions from Walker, Posey, & Jwill. That's the difference. Walker is all around better than Horry, Jwil & Payton are better than all 8 pg's the Lakers used in their runs, Haslem had more heart than Mark Madsen, & Samaki Walker. An aging Alonzo Mourning is better than a washed up AC Green & Horace Grant who played significant mins at center. That's the difference! <div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheDREAM:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes they did, his name was...........................SHAQ.....I swear it's like you forget that those Laker teams had a MUCH better Shaq than Wade had to work with</div> Iverson averaged 34 shots a game that series and shot a TERRIBLE %. Kobe did an excellent job containing Iverson that series, which is one of the key reasons the won that series. But he won't get all the glory like Wade did. Look, I'm sure you'll go back on fourth all day about that. But head up Kobe outplayed both Lebron and Wade. Just like Hakeem outplayed David Robinson, even though David Robinson got the MVP that year. We all knew Hakeem had the edge. Same scenario different players.
^^ You're purposely evading the point that Shaq was much less effective this year than in previous years. How does that not factor in as part of "the difference"? The stupidity of your arguments are frustrating enough. That you continue to act like an obnoxious little snot while blindly ignoring the legitimate points being made just makes you absolutely intolerable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">^^ You're purposely evading the point that Shaq was much less effective this year than in previous years. How does that not factor in as part of "the difference"?</div> Shaq played how the Lakers needed him to play in the latter seasons but failed to do so, with more defense and less offense. When he was with the Lakers he was the total opposite. I think Shaq learned from the Lakers that you have to play how the management need you to play. This is evident with the ring he won in Miami. I'm not taking anything away from Wade but if he played within the role needed towards the latter years, he would have 5 or 6rings on his two hands right now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rock4life:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade had a few bad games in the playoffs this year, and he got contributions from Walker, Posey, & Jwill. That's the difference. Walker is all around better than Horry, Jwil & Payton are better than all 8 pg's the Lakers used in their runs, Haslem had more heart than Mark Madsen, & Samaki Walker. An aging Alonzo Mourning is better than a washed up AC Green & Horace Grant who played significant mins at center. That's the difference! Iverson averaged 34 shots a game that series and shot a TERRIBLE %. Kobe did an excellent job containing Iverson that series, which is one of the key reasons the won that series. But he won't get all the glory like Wade did. Look, I'm sure you'll go back on fourth all day about that. But head up Kobe outplayed both Lebron and Wade. Just like Hakeem outplayed David Robinson, even though David Robinson got the MVP that year. We all knew Hakeem had the edge. Same scenario different players.</div> About Iverson, he averaged 35.6 PPG against the Lakers on 40.2% FG through the playoffs that year he averaged 32.9 PPG on 38.9% FG. He was above his averages in that series, so I don't know about that. Also it was Tyronn Lue who was given credit for harrasing Iverson in that series, even though that was overblown. They won because they were a vastly superior team to Philly, not because of Kobe's "superior" job in containing Iverson. Iverson averaged more points on a higher FG% than he did through the rest of the playoffs, so before that he was shooting even lower than 38.9%, that means the Bucks, Raptors etc must've done an even BETTER job than Kobe, so it's no proud accomplishment.
I know kobe fans are gonna think I'm a hater for saying this (not that they already don't think it), but Kobe's defense is overrated....I mean he's a good defender, but I think calling him a great defender is a stretch.....by a long shot.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq played how the Lakers needed him to play in the latter seasons but failed to do so, with more defense and less offense. When he was with the Lakers he was the total opposite. I think Shaq learned from the Lakers that you have to play how the management need you to play. This is evident with the ring he won in Miami. I'm not taking anything away from Wade but if he played within the role needed towards the latter years, he would have 5 or 6rings on his two hands right now.</div> You honestly think that Lakers would have won more championships, if Shaq played then like he played in the 2006 playoffs? That's absurd.
didnt kobe quit playing while getting spanked by the suns? this makes him great? no wayyyyyy hes a cry baby . He needs to prove hes a real leader of a team. Now that hes by himself in L. A. lets see him make a team and win a championship... then ask this question again.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ojedachess:</div><div class="quote_post">didnt kobe quit playing while getting spanked by the suns? this makes him great? no wayyyyyy hes a cry baby . He needs to prove hes a real leader of a team. Now that hes by himself in L. A. lets see him make a team and win a championship... then ask this question again.</div> You sound like a crybaby. Let's see Steve Nash win a championship too. I didn't hear you talk about that.
i bet you he has a better chance of winning before kobe ... didnt phoenix beat both L.A. teams or is that just my imagination?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ojedachess:</div><div class="quote_post">i bet you he has a better chance of winning before kobe ... didnt phoenix beat both L.A. teams or is that just my imagination?</div> Oh my bad, I guess the Lakers have like 4 other players producing 20 PER each (sarcasm)? Please guy, just stop the discussion now. This is played out.
Steve Nash is not a leader. He is only producing because of the Phoenix Suns system. He could not do otherwise if he was not in Phoenix. Anyways. Kobe is in the top 10.
