<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">wait wait wait. So Shaq getting to within an inch of the finals on a team with a 2nd year player in Wade and next to NO ONE else, loosing just barely, even with serious injury to Shaq and Wade, to the team that took the eventual champs to the brink of defeat. Thats not enough for you? <font color="red">It is enough for me to know that Shaq (like most big men) can influence or change the fate of a team more easily than a guard can. That Miami team was not a badly put together team. It mirrored the Lakers team in many ways with a superstar Guard, Shaq, and several role players that fit well into the system.</font> Oh ya and all this while he's several years older than he was with Kobe, and Wade had several years less experience than Kobe did. And 2nd thing..let me understand something you said.. Kobe made Shaq's life easier, Kobe was the one that made Shaq do what he did. Sorry man but you got it backwards..throughout his career Shaq has made everyone else's life easier...he takes sooooooo much pressure off EVERYONE else that mediocre players shine. <font color="red">I agree. Shaq made Kobe better just as he makes EVERY player who plays with him better. Shaq could make Jordan better too. So? Wouldn't Jordan also make Shaq better? Didn't Kobe also make Shaq better? The secret to the Laker dynasty was their one-two punch. You could either allow Shaq to pound you from inside or collapse the defence and allow Kobe to pick you apart from the perimeter. Many teams would see-saw between those two strategies when playing the Lakers and lose as a result. Yes Shaq made everyone better... but then Kobe made them better again as well. </font> hahahaha...we're talking about quality of a player here and you're suggesting the outcome of a one on one is admissable as evidence??? As stupid as it is to even bother talking about that Shaq would destroy Kobe. Oh sure kobe would drive around him at ease...thats why shaq would let him shoot everything he wants from 10 feet out. Sure Kobe would hit a very high %, but the one's he misses Shaq is 99% sure to get the rebound. And how's Kobe gunna stop Shaq from just backing him down and dunking on him 100% of the time..no misses. Puh-lease <font color="red">True.</font> I know you're a big kobe fan..nothing wrong with that. But its crazy to say he's better than a Shaq or a Malone in terms of what they've done for their teams, the players around them and the individual goals they've accomplished. <font color="red">I agree. Kobe is not better than Shaq or Malone. Thats crazy fan talk right there.</font> Frankly other than the rings i dont see how you can clearly say Kobe is more valuable than KG. And the rings arent all KG's fault becuase he's never had a Shaq to play with. <font color="red">This is a whole other debate. But suffice it to say... Kobe has separated himself from all players not named Tim Duncan with his will to win. KG ain't got that.</font> I have to make an aditional comment to you man. I read an earlier post about how you feel Shaq is no better than Kobe cause Shaq hasnt won a ring without Kobe. But you DO know that Shaq took the Magic to the finals right...and this is at the very start of his career! You also know that he took a depleted Heat roster to the brink of the finals..barely loosing the team that came an inch from winning it AND is the current best team in the league.</div> No argument with you here. If we measured a players ability to singlehandedly take a team to the finals there is no player current or previous better than Shaq. None. Not Jordan. Not Duncan. Not Wilt. Not Dr. J. None.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> The team was buitl around Shaq no doubt..but that level of drop off from the last Shaq season to the first Kobe season...huge. The shaq trade didnt work out..but i would say its partly becuase Kobe didnt work well with the other players. The prevous year Odom had great numbers and led a team to the playoffs. This season look at Caron's numbers in a Kobe free environment. Brian Grant was salary cap filler. Basically the Lakers got two young 16-19ppg 5-9 rpg forwards that shot 45% from the feild and were above average in every other way for an aging Shaq. Not great since Shaq is the MDE, but you'd think if Kobe could of done SOMETHING with it. But he didnt and i think thats alot of peoples reason for giving Kobe a hard time..because he wanted to be the man, had some talent with which to prove people wrong and yet the lakers absolutely bombed</div> The drop off from just getting rid of Shaq alone cannot be justified no. But when you combine that they also lost Malone, Payton, Fisher, Fox etc and had a new team unfamiliar with the offense and each other with the loss of their coach half-way through the season, and the injuries that plagued their best players (Odom and Kobe) and their best role player (George and Slava were out the entire season) then I think the drop-off was justified.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Incorrect again. What we can prove is that Kobe + Shaq = rings. Thats clearly obvious. We happen to have proof that Shaq + All-Star guard does not necessarily mean a ring. </div> Thats rediculous. Shaq + Kobe won rings..but they also lost a ring..and thats with 2 future hall of famers also on the team, bringing that total to 4. 4 future hall of famers. Shaq very nearly missed out on a Finals birth last year with a 2nd year gaurd, he took a 21 game winning Orlando crew to the finals WHEN HE WAS STILL A KID. Shaq's done lots without Kobe, he's been MVP, finals MVP 3 times. Kobe's done....oh ya...81 points vs one of the worst defenses ever that night. How does that make Kobe = Shaq. It doenst. How has that been proven. Well Penny Hardaway proved it. And now Dwayne Wade may also very well prove it as well (Wade I will give a lot of room since Shaq is clearly not as dominant as he used to be). Penny was the Jordan heir when he was paired with Shaq and Orlando has no rings. So now we know that you can't pair Shaq with ANY All-Star or even the very best guard in the league at the time. We know Kobe works. We don't know that anyone else does and that may be all we can prove ever. Until you have proof that another all-star guard could do what Kobe did then you really have no leg to stand on since my end of the argument is inexorably held aloft by three championship rings.[/QUOTE]
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats rediculous. Shaq + Kobe won rings..but they also lost a ring..and thats with 2 future hall of famers also on the team, bringing that total to 4. 4 future hall of famers. Shaq very nearly missed out on a Finals birth last year with a 2nd year gaurd, he took a 21 game winning Orlando crew to the finals WHEN HE WAS STILL A KID. <font color="Red"> And how does that help your argument? If Shaq lost a ring when he played with three other future hall of famers then doesn't that play AGAINST him? Using that same logic you could also say Duncan lost rings as well right? The point is Shaq + Kobe is LIKELY to yield a ring. They certainly won more rings than they lost and the Championship went through them every single year.</font> Shaq's done lots without Kobe, he's been MVP, finals MVP 3 times. Kobe's done....oh ya...81 points vs one of the worst defenses ever that night. How does that make Kobe = Shaq. <font color="Red">Is that the only thing Kobe has accomplished in his years in the NBA? Score 81 points? You are digging yourself deeper in the hater hole with each post. Just admit that you don't like the guy. Admit it. Shaq won those MVPs in part because he had an elite guard who could force teams not to just crowd him and deny him the ball.</font> It doenst. <font color="Red">The argument here is not whether or not Kobe is greater than Shaq. If you have been arguing that this whole time then you are arguing with the wrong person. I have NEVER said that Kobe is better than Shaq. Thats just stupid. Shaq is clearly better than Kobe. But the argument is: are there 30 players better than Kobe Bryant. And I say no.</font> </div> You still have no answer to my case that no other player paired with Shaq has been able to win a ring.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus it came against arguably the worst defence in the league on their worst defensive night of the season AND the refs were calling every single touch foul out there and a few that werent. It didnt matter if Toronto doubled or tripled Kobe. Why? Because none of them were able to get within a 5 feet of him without being charged with a foul.</div> lol, the funny thing is Toronto rarely actually double teamed him that night. I think we were going with the plan of single coverage and letting Kobe get his points while his teammates get nothing. We did that to Lebron last year, and Lebron got like 50 while the Cavs still lost. Mo Pete got into foul trouble and we really have no SGs outside of Mo Pete. We had Jalen Rose who is terrible defensively against SFs on Kobe, and Joey Graham who is a SF rookie up against a hot Kobe. I don't think the refs were too bad that night, sure Kobe was getting a few superstar calls, but from what I remember it wasn't outrageous or anything.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">lol, the funny thing is Toronto rarely actually double teamed him that night. I think we were going with the plan of single coverage and letting Kobe get his points while his teammates get nothing. We did that to Lebron last year, and Lebron got like 50 while the Cavs still lost. Mo Pete got into foul trouble and we really have no SGs outside of Mo Pete. We had Jalen Rose who is terrible defensively against SFs on Kobe, and Joey Graham who is a SF rookie up against a hot Kobe. I don't think the refs were too bad that night, sure Kobe was getting a few superstar calls, but from what I remember it wasn't outrageous or anything.</div> Yeah. I absolutely refuse to debate with the guy whether or not Kobe's performance was more than "not a big deal". That one statement cements him as a hater to me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> The team was buitl around Shaq no doubt..but that level of drop off from the last Shaq season to the first Kobe season...huge. The shaq trade didnt work out..but i would say its partly becuase Kobe didnt work well with the other players. The prevous year Odom had great numbers and led a team to the playoffs. This season look at Caron's numbers in a Kobe free environment. Brian Grant was salary cap filler. Basically the Lakers got two young 16-19ppg 5-9 rpg forwards that shot 45% from the feild and were above average in every other way for an aging Shaq. Not great since Shaq is the MDE, but you'd think if Kobe could of done SOMETHING with it. But he didnt and i think thats alot of peoples reason for giving Kobe a hard time..because he wanted to be the man, had some talent with which to prove people wrong and yet the lakers absolutely bombed</div> You have to blame it on management then. It's not Kobe's responsibility to put together a cohesive unit around him. It's the job of the GM to evaluate and then select the right players. Caron Butler gives a lot of credit to his success this season to Kobe Bryant. Again, it was another stupid decision to trade Butler when it was clear him and Kobe had chemistry together and Butler was more than willing to work hard to learn the Triangle offense. He even lost 20lbs to slim down so he would be quick enough to play the PG in the Triangle offense. Next thing you know the management trades him against Kobe's wishes. They say it rots from the top when things take a turn for the worse. The Lakers Dynasty fell apart because PJax and Jerry Buss ran Jerry West out of the organization. Since West's departure there has been a lot of chaos and uncertainty as to who is really calling the shots. Also Kobe did do something with this team. The Lakers were the 6th seed for a majority of last season. However, the team suffered a lot of injuries to their 3 key players Kobe, Odom, & Butler. A weak bench wasn't able to hold the team together and step up when these players went down.
I've been vouching for Kobe forever. People argued that Bruce Bowen can stop him, but I watched Kobe drop 40+ on him the other night. People said he wasn't a winner, but he's winning (something Iverson isn't doing). I think it's interesting that Kobe had to drop 81pts in a single game for people to jump back on the bandwagon lol. As of right now, he's more physically gifted and a better athlete than Jordan was. He's also a better shooter and has longer range. The only thing Kobe hasn't perfected is becoming that GREAT leader. That's the only thing that puts MJ as the best 2guard. I believe Jordan in his prime would have the Lakers at a slightly better record. I believe Kobe will retire the G.O.A.T.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">You still have no answer to my case that no other player paired with Shaq has been able to win a ring.</div> Thats moronic. He's been in the league for 14 seasons, only 5 of those has he been with another team. And in those occasions he turned the teams around 180 degrees and took them to the brink of a championship. In Orlando he was very very young still...but he still took him all the way only to be knocked off by top quality competition. In Miami they very possibly could of won it all had it not been for some injuries(no excuses, pistons played great, but you have to recognize Wade's injury)...and this is while he's "old". Its stupid to say he only won with Kobe. He's done it all, give the man his respect. If Shaq having Kobe took 1/10th the pressure off him. Kobe having Shaq was far far far far more. Kobe benefited more from Shaq than vice versa. I'm not going to go into it anymore....its crazy to discuss this with someone who thinks Shaq hasnt proven any more than Kobe becuase shaq hasnt won without Kobe.
it only bothers me when people say you can't compare kobe to larry/magic. jordan is another thing... but like i was gonna say, magic and larry had at least 3 solid players with them each. Magic had coop/worthy/jabbar and larry had parish/mchale/DJ. Jordan really had Pippen... thats all. Now how can Kobe NOT compare to bird and magic? Kobe and shaq only had each other really, you can't even try to compare Fox/Fish/Shaw/Horry to Magic's or Larry's crew. Will Fox or the others ever make the hall of fame?? Kobe can be compared to any of the great players who won rings with superior teammates than the modern lakers. As for Jordan, I'm going to say he'll never be in that category until he wins three more championships.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats moronic. He's been in the league for 14 seasons, only 5 of those has he been with another team. And in those occasions he turned the teams around 180 degrees and took them to the brink of a championship. In Orlando he was very very young still...but he still took him all the way only to be knocked off by top quality competition. In Miami they very possibly could of won it all had it not been for some injuries(no excuses, pistons played great, but you have to recognize Wade's injury)...and this is while he's "old". Its stupid to say he only won with Kobe. He's done it all, give the man his respect. If Shaq having Kobe took 1/10th the pressure off him. Kobe having Shaq was far far far far more. Kobe benefited more from Shaq than vice versa. I'm not going to go into it anymore....its crazy to discuss this with someone who thinks Shaq hasnt proven any more than Kobe becuase shaq hasnt won without Kobe.</div> Funny how people argue that he hasn't been on his own to prove anything, yet bash Kobe after his first season and losing without Shaq. I'm not trying to get into this "who is better" argument, but what I've read throughout these pages have been pretty rediculous and unfair. Kobe has had one season without Shaq, yet most of you keep repeating that he hasn't done anything without him.. After losing such a great player and having had such a bad end of a trade, of course he was not able to win. As Shape said early in the season the Lakers were playing decent ball, up until the injuries and coaching change. Everything that could go wrong went wrong for L.A. last year. The east is still weaker than the west, most still fail to realize that. Yes the east does have better top teams, but aside that, look who we have at the end of the playoff race. Any team from the west 11th and above could very well be 6th, maybe even 5th seed in the east. Success is much harder to measure between Kobe and Shaq. Although Lamar does have the talent to be better than Dwyane(i'm not a Lamar fan so don't challenge me on this, he has the talent to be a top3 in the league) he doesn't play anywhere near his capabilities. Besides Odom, what other Laker would even be a starter on a top ranked team? Smush? he played in the NBDL last season and was only expected to be a bench warmer in the preseason. Cook? a role player off the bench at best. Chris Mihm? a poor man's center. I'm sure I don't even have to mention Kwame. Having said, under all of these cercumstances, how was so much already expected from Kobe? No player in his position could have done any better than he has thus far. I've heard Iverson very often on this topic, who actually has a worse record in the east. He also has much more talent around him, and consistent talent at that. Again the one topic I do hate most is the "who is better" argument, so I tried my best not to make a statement on that. Hopefully this will make this debate a little more logical, instead of the "Kobe hasn't done anything without Shaq" I keep reading.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats moronic. He's been in the league for 14 seasons, only 5 of those has he been with another team. And in those occasions he turned the teams around 180 degrees and took them to the brink of a championship. In Orlando he was very very young still...but he still took him all the way only to be knocked off by top quality competition. In Miami they very possibly could of won it all had it not been for some injuries(no excuses, pistons played great, but you have to recognize Wade's injury)...and this is while he's "old". Its stupid to say he only won with Kobe. He's done it all, give the man his respect. If Shaq having Kobe took 1/10th the pressure off him. Kobe having Shaq was far far far far more. Kobe benefited more from Shaq than vice versa. I'm not going to go into it anymore....its crazy to discuss this with someone who thinks Shaq hasnt proven any more than Kobe becuase shaq hasnt won without Kobe.</div> Well you must not be arguing with me because no where have I said Shaq wasn't more responsible for the Lakers championships than Kobe. In fact I said he was... and I even said he is better than Kobe is... but to use Shaq to degrade Kobe's value is stupid and thats what I am arguing against. The greatness of Shaq does not go against Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WarRocCavs:</div><div class="quote_post">it only bothers me when people say you can't compare kobe to larry/magic. jordan is another thing... but like i was gonna say, magic and larry had at least 3 solid players with them each. Magic had coop/worthy/jabbar and larry had parish/mchale/DJ. Jordan really had Pippen... thats all. Now how can Kobe NOT compare to bird and magic? Kobe and shaq only had each other really, you can't even try to compare Fox/Fish/Shaw/Horry to Magic's or Larry's crew. Will Fox or the others ever make the hall of fame?? Kobe can be compared to any of the great players who won rings with superior teammates than the modern lakers. As for Jordan, I'm going to say he'll never be in that category until he wins three more championships.</div> Exactly! All these great players who played with Bird and Magic don't diminish those players' greatness in the eyes of others. Scottie Pippen is still top 50. But somehow the same rules don't apply to Kobe. He played with Shaq and so therefore he is overrated and owes all his success to Shaq. Rubbish!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly! All these great players who played with Bird and Magic don't diminish those players' greatness in the eyes of others. Scottie Pippen is still top 50. But somehow the same rules don't apply to Kobe. He played with Shaq and so therefore he is overrated and owes all his success to Shaq. Rubbish!</div> He doesn't defenatly but, You still cant say Kobe has led a team to a championship. he played very important roles on championship teams, but he still has yet to lead a team there himself.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phreeze:</div><div class="quote_post">Funny how people argue that he hasn't been on his own to prove anything, yet bash Kobe after his first season and losing without Shaq. I'm not trying to get into this "who is better" argument, but what I've read throughout these pages have been pretty rediculous and unfair. Kobe has had one season without Shaq, yet most of you keep repeating that he hasn't done anything without him.. After losing such a great player and having had such a bad end of a trade, of course he was not able to win. As Shape said early in the season the Lakers were playing decent ball, up until the injuries and coaching change. Everything that could go wrong went wrong for L.A. last year. The east is still weaker than the west, most still fail to realize that. Yes the east does have better top teams, but aside that, look who we have at the end of the playoff race. Any team from the west 11th and above could very well be 6th, maybe even 5th seed in the east. Success is much harder to measure between Kobe and Shaq. Although Lamar does have the talent to be better than Dwyane(i'm not a Lamar fan so don't challenge me on this, he has the talent to be a top3 in the league) he doesn't play anywhere near his capabilities. Besides Odom, what other Laker would even be a starter on a top ranked team? Smush? he played in the NBDL last season and was only expected to be a bench warmer in the preseason. Cook? a role player off the bench at best. Chris Mihm? a poor man's center. I'm sure I don't even have to mention Kwame. Having said, under all of these cercumstances, how was so much already expected from Kobe? No player in his position could have done any better than he has thus far. I've heard Iverson very often on this topic, who actually has a worse record in the east. He also has much more talent around him, and consistent talent at that. Again the one topic I do hate most is the "who is better" argument, so I tried my best not to make a statement on that. Hopefully this will make this debate a little more logical, instead of the "Kobe hasn't done anything without Shaq" I keep reading.</div> Totally agree. And I tried to say as much. This thread is not a "Is Kobe better than Shaq" thread. I don't see why Shaq can't be in the top ten and Kobe still be in the top 30 players. I don't see where placing Kobe in the top 30 echelon of NBA players automatically means anyone thinks Kobe is better than Shaq. Lets get it straight... 1. Shaq was the MVP of the Lakers Dynasty. He was the one MOST responsible for those championship rings. He wasn't the ONLY one... but he had the most impact. Now thats not to say Kobe was a typical role player. He was no less a role player than Scottie Pippen was for the Bulls and in fact, Kobe had more of an offensive impact than Scottie did. Kobe has lead the Lakers in scoring in games they needed to win to get a ring. Or totally put the team on his back for stretches in the fourth quarter where if it wasn't for him... no ring. 2. Shaq is better than Kobe. He has more achievements. And then there are all the accolades and accomplishments you listed. No doubts there. Which is why Shaq is one of the top ten players of all time. What we are debating here is are there 30 players better than Kobe Bryant (Shaq is one... are there 29 more)?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">He doesn't defenatly but, You still cant say Kobe has led a team to a championship. he played very important roles on championship teams, but he still has yet to lead a team there himself.</div> In which case we should just remove all the players in the top 50 who did not also lead their teams to Championships then shouldn't we?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fiyah:</div><div class="quote_post">In which case we should just remove all the players in the top 50 who did not also lead their teams to Championships then shouldn't we? </div> When did i say that?
I clearly remember last year the lakers had a 34-38 season missing the playoffs for the first time since what like 20 years ago?...ALL WITHOUT SHAQ! How can you say Kobe is the greatest player in the history of the nba? How can you put Kobe over MJ? There will never be anyone as dominant as Michael Jordan. Kobe and everyone else will always be 2nd place. But I do like kobe's huraches, and his kb8's. But yeah that's a little off topic. I don't know where i'm going with this. haha.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting er03029:</div><div class="quote_post">I clearly remember last year the lakers had a 34-38 season missing the playoffs for the first time since what like 20 years ago?...ALL WITHOUT SHAQ! How can you say Kobe is the greatest player in the history of the nba? How can you put Kobe over MJ? There will never be anyone as dominant as Michael Jordan. Kobe and everyone else will always be 2nd place. But I do like kobe's huraches, and his kb8's. But yeah that's a little off topic. I don't know where i'm going with this. haha.</div> good to see that someone has been reading the last bunch of posts....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Johnnybrasco:</div><div class="quote_post">When did i say that?</div> Well I guess you didn't but I am struggling to understand why you pointed that out in a thread discussing where he ranks in among the greats.
