Which player besides Lillard would you most be upset to see traded?

Old article but the jury is still out:

In NBA, value of ex-big men as coaches an up-and-down affair

Bob Thornton wasn't budging even though Marc Gasol, at 7-foot-1 and 265 pounds, is awfully good at making people budge. But each time Gasol banged into Thornton on the low block, Thornton banged back, his chest and belly offering as much resistance against the Memphis Grizzlies' center as possible.

This went on time and again, about an hour before the Grizzlies' preseason game at Chicago Tuesday night. It was like a pair of powerful, bighorn rams fighting for turf and supremacy, except in basketball post-up position, back to belly. After Gasol, it was Zach Randolph's turn.

By the time they all retreated to the locker room, a game still to be played, Thornton -- twice Gasol's age, Memphis' assistant coach with responsibility for the team's big men -- was breathing harder and sweating more than either Gasol or Randolph would against the Bulls that night.

Thornton is 6-10 and weighs a little more than his playing weight of 225, but that's a good thing when he's pushing back as an on-court teacher. So is the fact that he played professionally for 11 seasons, including eight in the NBA with five different teams. He walked in their size 16 Nikes and they know it.



"It helps a lot," Thornton said later that evening. "There are little nuance things you can take advantage of. Defensively, offensively. 'If a guy's guarding you this way, look at this, because he's definitely overplaying you. He's not paying attention and we can do this...'

"Last year in the playoffs when Zach was getting crowded, we showed him some clips. We said, 'You need to drive more. You need to rip through and attack more.' And it worked. He got to the foul line more."

Look around the NBA. That sort of bump-and-grind action goes on all over the league in warm-ups and on practice courts. Past "bigs" work with current bigs, sharing experiences, handing down tricks of their outsized trade. Many assistant coaches are recognizable as centers and power forwards who played in the league -- Bob McAdoo, Jack Sikma, Herb Williams, Popeye Jones, Ed Pinckney, Joe Wolf, Marc Iavaroni, Thornton.

Now look around again: How many head coaches are big guys? Right. Of the 20 current coaches who played in the league, only one -- Houston's Kevin McHale -- was a classic NBA big (and a Hall of Famer at that). In recent memory, Bill Cartwright, Kurt Rambis, Iavaroni and a few others have held the top job but the list stll is short.

Consider the NBA Coach of the Year award, which has been presented 50 times since it was created in 1962-63. Other than Phil Jackson (1995-96), who played power forward for New York and New Jersey, you have to go back to Johnny "Red" Kerr (1966-67), Dolph Schayes (1965-66) and Alex Hannum (1963-64) to find bigs chosen as their profession's best in a given season.

Generally, NBA teams have been more comfortable with short guys coaching bigs than vice versa.

Nazr Mohammed has been with eight clubs in 15 seasons and has spent practice sessions with coaches of various sizes. "Some teams have used big guys but you also have a coach like Larry Brown, who was very hands-on with his big men," Mohammed said. "[Gregg] Popovich is like that also -- [former Spurs assistant] Don Newman did a lot of the work with the big men, but Popovich was hands-on.

"In Charlotte it was LaSalle Thompson, it was Charles Oakley for a year. I've had different guys. It comes down to the philosophies of the head coach."

"It helps a lot," Thornton said later that evening. "There are little nuance things you can take advantage of. Defensively, offensively. 'If a guy's guarding you this way, look at this, because he's definitely overplaying you. He's not paying attention and we can do this...'

"Last year in the playoffs when Zach was getting crowded, we showed him some clips. We said, 'You need to drive more. You need to rip through and attack more.' And it worked. He got to the foul line more."

Look around the NBA. That sort of bump-and-grind action goes on all over the league in warm-ups and on practice courts. Past "bigs" work with current bigs, sharing experiences, handing down tricks of their outsized trade. Many assistant coaches are recognizable as centers and power forwards who played in the league -- Bob McAdoo, Jack Sikma, Herb Williams, Popeye Jones, Ed Pinckney, Joe Wolf, Marc Iavaroni, Thornton.

Now look around again: How many head coaches are big guys? Right. Of the 20 current coaches who played in the league, only one -- Houston's Kevin McHale -- was a classic NBA big (and a Hall of Famer at that). In recent memory, Bill Cartwright, Kurt Rambis, Iavaroni and a few others have held the top job but the list stll is short.

Consider the NBA Coach of the Year award, which has been presented 50 times since it was created in 1962-63. Other than Phil Jackson (1995-96), who played power forward for New York and New Jersey, you have to go back to Johnny "Red" Kerr (1966-67), Dolph Schayes (1965-66) and Alex Hannum (1963-64) to find bigs chosen as their profession's best in a given season.

Generally, NBA teams have been more comfortable with short guys coaching bigs than vice versa.

Nazr Mohammed has been with eight clubs in 15 seasons and has spent practice sessions with coaches of various sizes. "Some teams have used big guys but you also have a coach like Larry Brown, who was very hands-on with his big men," Mohammed said. "[Gregg] Popovich is like that also -- [former Spurs assistant] Don Newman did a lot of the work with the big men, but Popovich was hands-on.

"In Charlotte it was LaSalle Thompson, it was Charles Oakley for a year. I've had different guys. It comes down to the philosophies of the head coach."

"It helps a lot," Thornton said later that evening. "There are little nuance things you can take advantage of. Defensively, offensively. 'If a guy's guarding you this way, look at this, because he's definitely overplaying you. He's not paying attention and we can do this...'

"Last year in the playoffs when Zach was getting crowded, we showed him some clips. We said, 'You need to drive more. You need to rip through and attack more.' And it worked. He got to the foul line more."

Look around the NBA. That sort of bump-and-grind action goes on all over the league in warm-ups and on practice courts. Past "bigs" work with current bigs, sharing experiences, handing down tricks of their outsized trade. Many assistant coaches are recognizable as centers and power forwards who played in the league -- Bob McAdoo, Jack Sikma, Herb Williams, Popeye Jones, Ed Pinckney, Joe Wolf, Marc Iavaroni, Thornton.

Now look around again: How many head coaches are big guys? Right. Of the 20 current coaches who played in the league, only one -- Houston's Kevin McHale -- was a classic NBA big (and a Hall of Famer at that). In recent memory, Bill Cartwright, Kurt Rambis, Iavaroni and a few others have held the top job but the list stll is short.

Consider the NBA Coach of the Year award, which has been presented 50 times since it was created in 1962-63. Other than Phil Jackson (1995-96), who played power forward for New York and New Jersey, you have to go back to Johnny "Red" Kerr (1966-67), Dolph Schayes (1965-66) and Alex Hannum (1963-64) to find bigs chosen as their profession's best in a given season.

Generally, NBA teams have been more comfortable with short guys coaching bigs than vice versa.

Nazr Mohammed has been with eight clubs in 15 seasons and has spent practice sessions with coaches of various sizes. "Some teams have used big guys but you also have a coach like Larry Brown, who was very hands-on with his big men," Mohammed said. "[Gregg] Popovich is like that also -- [former Spurs assistant] Don Newman did a lot of the work with the big men, but Popovich was hands-on.

"In Charlotte it was LaSalle Thompson, it was Charles Oakley for a year. I've had different guys. It comes down to the philosophies of the head coach."

 

Terry Stotts, Portland Trail Blazers:

"I hired Kim Hughes [former ABA and NBA center]. He's already spent a lot of time with [draft pick] Meyers Leonard. I don't think you have to be a big man to coach big men, but I think there's a certain comfort level and an understanding for a young big man to be working with someone big. It's like, 'He's been where I'm going. He knows what I'm going through.' ... But if you do hire a coach specifically to work with your big men, he's got to be more than just big. He's got to be qualified."

 

I used ESPN's splits, and made a thread about it.

 

hes deluded, how can you say: " I don't think you have to be a big man to coach big men", and then say: "But if you do hire a coach specifically to work with your big men, he's got to be more than just big. He's got to be qualified"

you dont have to be big to improve somebodys shooting mechanics, but everything other than that, you do need a big man... well I guess you need big man to teach players shoot from low post

 

They should hire Tom Chambers to be Zach’s personal Big Man coach. They kinda even look a like. Chambers was a BEAST. Credit Riverman with the idea, he said something somewhere about Chambers if I recall.

 

Tom chambers barely played a lick of Defense..

Plus, their games are not similar in the slightest.

 

Don’t hate on Tom Chambers anymore

 

You need to understand something. You are using the word hate out of context. Understand what a "hater" is before you go throwing the word about.

Giving your opinion, or stating facts isn't hating. I don't want Chambers' woman.

 

Do any of those teams have five big men on their rosters 25 and under? Did any of them just use three first round picks in a deep draft to get two 20-year old big men?

Not sure which LA team you're referring to, but the Clippers current big men, Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan, were both coached by Kim Hughes in their early 20s, as was Chris Kaman. All three became all stars and all three give Kim Hughes credit for making them better players. All of Kevin Garnett, Kevin Love and Dwight Howard give Kevin McHale credit for helping them develop their big man specific skills. McHale worked in MIN as both a head coach and an assistant.

It would be different if we just had one, or two, young big men, but with five, I don't understand why we don't have a full time dedicated big man coach. We had a full time big man coach back when we had a more veteran front court. It seems silly not to have one now.

BNM

 

Where is Kim Hughes now? How is he not a head coach. I mean being so responsible for so many good big men. How long was Dwight with McHale? Was he shitty before that?

Listen if they get a new coach who is dedicated to just big men fine. But it’s not some common practice in this league and the Blazers are just some crazy team going against the grain. I put more responsibility on the players.

 

Which is why I keep saying we need to hire a PROVEN big man coach. I don't care who he is, or how big he is, but he needs to be someone with a proven track record of "coaching up" young big men. Kim Hughes had a terrific resume in that regard, as does Kevin McHale. Popeye Jones is another guy that I hear mentioned often as a good teacher.

There is no limit on the number of assistant coaches a team can have, or how much you can pay them. Does any other team in the league have as many young big men as Portland? If the organization thought hiring Kim Hughes was a good idea when we had a more veteran front court, why is a dedicated big man coach not a good idea now?

BNM

 

i can't vote, because Ed Davis is not on that list.

 

Last I heard, Kim Hughes was coaching in Europe. He has been a head coach in the NBA, but coaching big men specific skills and designing an entire offense/defense, juggling playing time and players' egos, are not the same thing.

Yeah it would be great if 20 year old kids could teach themselves everything, regardless of their occupation, but universities and professors exist for a reason. Hell, why even have a head coach, just let the players work it out on their own.

Just because every team doesn't have a dedicated big man coach doesn't me it's "crazy" and "going against the grain". Several teams do, and this team did as recently as three and a half years ago. It's not some revolutionary, ground breaking strategy. It has been used successfully in the past. The key is hiring the right guy. With a full staff of crack Vulcans investigating everything else that is going on with this team I think they would be able to find the right guy for the job.

I have no idea why you are so opposed to giving it a try. It's not like his salary would come out of your pocket, or even count against the team's cap.

I've give examples of proven big men coaches, which you mocked and ridiculed. Read the article DVISS posted. Even veteran big men like Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph have benefited from a dedicated big man coach.

So, he's a challenge for you. Please give an example of a dedicated big man coach that made his players worse? Who hindered their development in some way. I just don't see what the potential downside is.

BNM

 

This is my big issue.
There's a level of respect players give coaches when they know what they are going through. It's not the same until they 'walk in my shoes'.
You can't just hire any ex-player, there is an art to teaching & coaching that they need too.

 

Terry's art:


Actually, spirographs are WAY more complex than Terry's designs...

 

- never said they should not hire a big man coach
- dviss’ Article was neither pro or anti big man coach. It article was good but didn’t support either
- if Kim Hughes was some big man miracle worker he wouldn’t be in Europe

I’m not being confrontational. I just blame the players more than the coaches.

 

The article mentions several teams that have/had dedicated big man coaches. Not every team has five bigs that are former first round picks, including three lottery picks, that are 25 and younger. Ultimately, it seems to come down to the head coach's personal philosophy.

I think Hughes is retired. He's 65 and has had past health issues (prostate cancer). He only coached in Europe for a year after being fired by the Blazers. I was just using him as an example of a proven big man coach.

BNM

 

You blame the players for...not teaching themselves the intricacies of their position?

I suppose they should be watching youtube videos about proper timing in screen setting, and taking community college courses on the art of footwork? But then, in those scenarios the youtube video creators and community college professors would be big man coaches.

I guess I'm confused - how does one teach oneself that which they don't know without using the knowledge of someone who does know?

 

Huh? They have coaches. I keep saying they have an NBA coaching staff who I BELIEVE knows what they are doing. YouTube? Damn this is not complicated.

 

buzzkill.....I hoped Vonleh would turn into Karl Malone....why not? turn into is a projection not a snapshot