Who do we take if Granger and Green are gone by #9?

The Chicago pre-draft measurements are up at DraftExpress.com (almost all the writers from DraftCity have gone to this site): http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1001

Here's some of the measurements for centers and power forwards:

Height Height (w/ shoes) Weight (lbs) Wingspan Reach

Andriuskevicius, Martynas
7' 1?"____7' 3"____227.8____6' 11?"____9' 4?"

Bogut, Andrew
6' 11"____7' 0?"___250.6____7' 3"_______9' 2?"

Diogu, Ike
6' 6?"___6' 8"_____255.4____7' 3?"_____9' 1"

Frye, Channing
6' 9?"___6' 10?"__243.6____7' 2?"_____9' 2?"

May, Sean
6' 7"_____6' 8?"___258.8____7' 1?"_____8' 9"

Simien, Wayne
6' 7?"___6' 9"_____255.8____7' 0"_______8' 11"

Taft, Chris
6' 8?"___6' 9?"___261.0_____7' 1?"_____9' 1"

Villanueva, Charlie
6' 9"_____6' 9?"__236.6______7' 0?"____9' 1"

 

For comparison, here are some measurements from last year:

Height Height (w/ shoes) Weight (lbs) Wingspan Reach

Howard, Dwight
6'9"_____6'10.25"____240____7'4.5"____9'3.5"

Humphries, Kris
6'8.25"__6'9.5"______238____7'0.5"____8'10.5"

Jefferson, Al
6'8.25"__6'9.75"_____263____7'2.5"____9'2"

Okafor, Emeka
6'8.5"___6'10"______257____7'4"______9'2.5"

Roberts, Lawrence
6' 7.5''__6' 9''______233____6' 9.5''____8' 10.5''

Splitter, Tiago
6'10.25"_6'11.75"___233____7'2"______9'1.5"

 

Custodian

I think of Splitter as another Biedrins because of their similar size and the fact that every report I've read says he's primarily a defensive player right now and he doesn't shy from contact. Now he's different in that he's got a bit more of an offensive game away from the basket, but other than that, I see him as another Biedrins.

As for Frye, he's got more polish on him than Biedrins or Splitter, but he's still basically the same player. He's primarily a defensive player who has some moves around the basket, but let's be honest, he'll never be a Kevin McHale. As for the soft label, I've never bought into it, and his play in the tournament proved that he's not soft.

While it might seem confusing that I'd put Splitter and Frye in the same category when they have some varying scouting reports, it's basically a case of me reading a lot of scouting reports, believing parts of them, not believing other parts, and the parts that I discount are the ones that make Splitter and Frye seem like different players.

On to Vazquez...actually, first a disclaimer. When it comes to NBA rumors and forecasting how well a team will do during the season, Chad Ford is horrible. When it comes to predicting the draft and scouting players, I'm a huge Ford fan, he's not perfect, but he's better than anyone else out there. When you read Ford's scouting report of Vazquez, everything makes sense except his comparing Vazquez to Biedrins.

If I had to pick a guy who Vazquez would compare to, it'd be Pau Gasol. Vazquez is much more polished on the offensive low post than Biedrins and he's got a mid range jumper. I don't think Vazquez will be as good as Gasol, but he's got a similar game. Right now Biedrins doesn't have the low post moves that Gasol or Vazquez have (though I'm pretty sure he'll develop them).

Custodian, as for your thoughts about Vazquez falling, I don't see him slipping past #8. I'm sure they're over the Frederick Weis debacle. They've got a new coach (actually they've had a few) and a new GM. That actually scares me a lot, because I REALLY don't wand the Warriors to take Frye. When I think of Frye I think of a repeated Jim Barnett/Tim Roye comment, "If Adonal Foyle and Todd Fuller were meshed into one player (Tadonal Foyler) they'd have an excellent big man." Well, I think Frye could be that guy, but I do NOT think he would be an excellent player. He'd be a big man version of Shane Battier.

The hard part in all of this is that we're dealing with players who we haven't seen much or at all and even if we had, their games are still developing and they could be very different players in five years than what they are now. Will Biedrins be a better offensive player or defensive player? More inside skills or outside skills? What about Vazquez, Frye, or Splitter? No one knows for sure, all we can do is predict based on what we've seen from them so far.

As for the Darius Miles/Hakim Warrick comparision, I stand by it. Miles NEVER had the ball handling/play making skills that people thought he did when the Cavs tried to make him a point guard, that was why the plan was scrapped so quickly. What Miles and Warrick are are great run/jump athletes with a limited amount of skills. In fact I've always felt that their skills are so limited that it doesn't even really matter what they are. They run, play defense, and rely on their god given athletic ability to get the ball in the basket.

Now Warrick has developed more skills that it'd be unfair to put him in the same category as Miles, but he's got a long way to go to get to the point where his basketball skills are on par with his athletic ability.

Finally about Blatche, I realized after I read your comments that I forgot to put in that I'd be shocked if he fell that far. I agree that if the Warriors want him, they'd have to try and trade up to the late first, very early second to get him. But stranger things have happened (Loren Woods, Qyntel Woods, Lampe, and Arenas all fell much further than they were projected). One or two guys always fall, it's just a case of a guy falling out of his range and every other team after them being scared to pick him because they think the player has a red flag that they didn't catch in individual workouts.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">Custodian

I think of Splitter as another Biedrins because of their similar size and the fact that every report I've read says he's primarily a defensive player right now and he doesn't shy from contact. Now he's different in that he's got a bit more of an offensive game away from the basket, but other than that, I see him as another Biedrins.

As for Frye, he's got more polish on him than Biedrins or Splitter, but he's still basically the same player. He's primarily a defensive player who has some moves around the basket, but let's be honest, he'll never be a Kevin McHale. As for the soft label, I've never bought into it, and his play in the tournament proved that he's not soft.

While it might seem confusing that I'd put Splitter and Frye in the same category when they have some varying scouting reports, it's basically a case of me reading a lot of scouting reports, believing parts of them, not believing other parts, and the parts that I discount are the ones that make Splitter and Frye seem like different players.

On to Vazquez...actually, first a disclaimer. When it comes to NBA rumors and forecasting how well a team will do during the season, Chad Ford is horrible. When it comes to predicting the draft and scouting players, I'm a huge Ford fan, he's not perfect, but he's better than anyone else out there. When you read Ford's scouting report of Vazquez, everything makes sense except his comparing Vazquez to Biedrins.

If I had to pick a guy who Vazquez would compare to, it'd be Pau Gasol. Vazquez is much more polished on the offensive low post than Biedrins and he's got a mid range jumper. I don't think Vazquez will be as good as Gasol, but he's got a similar game. Right now Biedrins doesn't have the low post moves that Gasol or Vazquez have (though I'm pretty sure he'll develop them).

Custodian, as for your thoughts about Vazquez falling, I don't see him slipping past #8. I'm sure they're over the Frederick Weis debacle. They've got a new coach (actually they've had a few) and a new GM. That actually scares me a lot, because I REALLY don't wand the Warriors to take Frye. When I think of Frye I think of a repeated Jim Barnett/Tim Roye comment, "If Adonal Foyle and Todd Fuller were meshed into one player (Tadonal Foyler) they'd have an excellent big man." Well, I think Frye could be that guy, but I do NOT think he would be an excellent player. He'd be a big man version of Shane Battier.

The hard part in all of this is that we're dealing with players who we haven't seen much or at all and even if we had, their games are still developing and they could be very different players in five years than what they are now. Will Biedrins be a better offensive player or defensive player? More inside skills or outside skills? What about Vazquez, Frye, or Splitter? No one knows for sure, all we can do is predict based on what we've seen from them so far.

As for the Darius Miles/Hakim Warrick comparision, I stand by it. Miles NEVER had the ball handling/play making skills that people thought he did when the Cavs tried to make him a point guard, that was why the plan was scrapped so quickly. What Miles and Warrick are are great run/jump athletes with a limited amount of skills. In fact I've always felt that their skills are so limited that it doesn't even really matter what they are. They run, play defense, and rely on their god given athletic ability to get the ball in the basket.

Now Warrick has developed more skills that it'd be unfair to put him in the same category as Miles, but he's got a long way to go to get to the point where his basketball skills are on par with his athletic ability.

Finally about Blatche, I realized after I read your comments that I forgot to put in that I'd be shocked if he fell that far. I agree that if the Warriors want him, they'd have to try and trade up to the late first, very early second to get him. But stranger things have happened (Loren Woods, Qyntel Woods, Lampe, and Arenas all fell much further than they were projected). One or two guys always fall, it's just a case of a guy falling out of his range and every other team after them being scared to pick him because they think the player has a red flag that they didn't catch in individual workouts.</div>
Ah thanks for the reply. I think I see where you're coming from now with respect to defining and perceiving the draft prospects and other players in the league. But one thing: As disappointing and streaky as D-Miles is, he is an above average ballhandler and passer for his natural position of small forward (but he can play 4 positions, including a point guard at duty). If anything his abilities make him more versatile, more skilled than Hakim Warrick (SF/PF), but I see what you're saying about discounting some parts or focussing on the meat and potatoes of a player like how they're built physically. D-Miles and Warrick are very long, tremendous athletes that can run the floor who I think have the difference in skillset, work ethic, and approach to the game. Both aren't great shots. Warrick seems more like a power forward whereas D-Miles plays like a guard without a consistent shot or shot range.

Also, I see why you wouldn't want another Biedrins just yet. It's probably better for our team to find a player that is dissimilar to whoever we have now under contract. We could use a player that is rare in the league and to our advantage. Do we have a Pau Gasol yet or an Elton Brand-like player? I hope the draft finds us one because we need interior presence inside on both ends of the floor, the 50% in the paint + the foul trouble he'll give the other opposing frontcourt and middle. I believe Murphy can get some things done to some extent, but like the Pistons who ditched Okur, in favor of Rasheed, we could always stand to get better defensively as well as offensively if there's a player for us in the draft. If we get a good defender as the future at power forward I think we can go back to playing equal or better D like when we had a focussed Erick Dampier and Cliff Robinson at C/PF during the 2003-2004 campaign. Then Mike Dunleavy can get more involved without deferring to others as much and we wouldn't need the extra scoring to offbalance our high amount of points allowed to opposing teams.

I'm sure two former members of RUN TMC want the current team to go further in the postseason than they ever did and I'm sure they will.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting goldenstatefan:</div><div class="quote_post">The Chicago pre-draft measurements are up at DraftExpress.com (almost all the writers from DraftCity have gone to this site): http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1001

Here's some of the measurements for centers and power forwards:

Height Height (w/ shoes) Weight (lbs) Wingspan Reach

Andriuskevicius, Martynas
7' 1?"____7' 3"____227.8____6' 11?"____9' 4?"

Bogut, Andrew
6' 11"____7' 0?"___250.6____7' 3"_______9' 2?"

Diogu, Ike
6' 6?"___6' 8"_____255.4____7' 3?"_____9' 1"

Frye, Channing
6' 9?"___6' 10?"__243.6____7' 2?"_____9' 2?"

May, Sean
6' 7"_____6' 8?"___258.8____7' 1?"_____8' 9"

Simien, Wayne
6' 7?"___6' 9"_____255.8____7' 0"_______8' 11"

Taft, Chris
6' 8?"___6' 9?"___261.0_____7' 1?"_____9' 1"

Villanueva, Charlie
6' 9"_____6' 9?"__236.6______7' 0?"____9' 1"</div> Thanks goldenstatefan.

To the general audience of this thread:
I can see why REREM was so anti-taft for not only Taft's below expectations college play and Ike Diogu's underrated play and dominance in the Pac-10, but Diogu has a much longer wingspan and supposedly much more athletic than advertised. Scouts keep saying Diogu isn't explosive or quite the athlete, which sometimes I buy into given recent drafts like Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Chris Bosh, and Amare Stoudamire, but heck these are probably the same guys that were saying Boozer wasn't that athletic and same with Zach Randolph or Murphy who are effective players that are very mobile running the floor. Okay, they can run the floor quickly, but maybe they can't really jump or move fast going laterally making them suckers on D, but I'm hoping Ike Diogu will be different as a 6'8 player in shoes. Boozer was definitely more athletic than initially thought, somehow Zach Randolph looks faster with his variety of spin moves and mass, and Troy Murphy used to be quite the dunker when he was entering the league closer to Drew Gooden's 2002 weight of 230-240.

Maybe it's just a matter of conditioning and finding that equillibrium of quickness and strength. Like Wtwalker said we can't gauge who they'll be in the future and we can only judge on what they've proven or displayed now whether it be sheer skill, intelligence or physical edge. Ike Diogu has talent/heart, he could be like a cross between Elton Brand and Zach Randolph... or it's just another meaningless player comparrison to label or give the outsider bball fan something to relate to. If the prospect is based on a better known, recently successful 6'8"/6'9" power forward, we can get excited. When most 6'8 PF's end up failing to live up to the hype, I can see why the 6'8 guy in the following draft suddenly gets underrated. That and 6'8 doesn't give you a mismatch since majority of nba power forwards are a lot bigger, stronger. 6'8, limited range, limited quickness, limited ballhandling is also often the no man's land between a small forward and a power forward much like the 6'4 nba shooting guard. Outside of Dwayne Wade/Cuttino Mobley and possibly Flip Murray or Damon Jones, very few successful players.

 

With a 9-1 reach you can manuever the ball where you want it to be,then there's the Basketball IQ-knowing where that place is. In a Diogu v Taft matchup,the reach is equal,weight is similar,Ike is much quicker,high energy,and knows what he's doing.

Personally,I think Simien's game is more like Brand. Diogu reminds me of Marion and Amare,but at a size in between them. Those guys all play a real mobile style,attack the rim,are quick for there size yet play a bit bigger than they are. Brand/Simien are pure power guys who play smart and can shoot. There's a bit less creative stuff,drives from the perimeter etc. I like Diogu's game better as we want to run.

 

Probably as many PF's missed by being to thin weak or soft as too short. Wait and see how Jason Maxiel does. He's an inch shorter than Diogu,at least,yet dominated in the paint for Cincinnatti. Ryan Gomes and Brandon Bass are wide bodies with big talent,probable rd 2 bargains. Michael Harris of Rice was an 11 rbd guy,and a scorer at 6-6,may go undrafted,yet could be starting someday in the NBA. Tall and Raw is a fad. Sometimes it pays off,sometimes it is a huge mistake. As amateur scouts,we don't get the whole picture on some of the less visible prospects,and with Euros,we can't even draw conclusions based on stats. Past history shows that even pro scouts have been far off evaluating some of the imports,though the W's have avoided big mistakes-so far.

 

Hey REREM, heard anything good about Pops Mensah-Bonsu from George Wasington University? The Warriors will work him out Thursday looks like.

http://www.hoopshype.com/workouts.htm

Also who the heck is Spencer Nelson?

 

Pops would probably benefit by staying another year and getting a better draft position. Pretty much what Run BJM said, there's not much more to him: raw, athletic, big jumper... he's definitely behind other guys in the draft and considered a mid-late 2nd rounder.

 

i never got a look at Mensa Bonsu,though the above comments seem to match the consensus,nice Physical tools,too few skills to play much. LaSalle's Steven Smith has a lot of the upside,with skills,but may pull out.

Teams want to find a talented,legit 6-10 who is full of talent,and have to realize that the gene pool fails to crank out such people very often. There are "ideal" builds for SF,PF,but the real deal comes down to who can play this game. An NBA body does no good if run by a junior High brain,thats where the skills are. A weak 6-10 has no edge inside against a strong 6-8.
An article I just read had some notes on Jason Maxiel at the Chicago camp. He was a force in the paint,a defensive dominator,may have moved up to first round.....and without shoes he measured a tad less than 6-6,over 250,yet quick,springy,big wingpan. I saw him as a U Cinn player,and originally assumed he was 6-9. He was a guy who you don't score on down low. Gomes and Bass know how to score,rebound,etc. They weren't exactly playing midgets,the Big East,SEC,had talent and some size. The assorted 6-7,6-8,widebody types will earn jobs,will often be draft bargains,at least the ones who have learned what it takes to get results. You don't expect your RD 2 picks to be future All Stars,but if you get a guy who has a good chance at becoming a starter,that's sweet.

From the W's perspective,who we take round 1 can have an effect on our rd 2 aims. If we took Diogu rd 1,I don't see taking Bass on Rd 2. If we took Granger Rd 1,or Blatche,Bas or Gomes might be a good second rounder. As I think we will target F's round 1,our 2's should include a potential PG. we might grab a big,a euro-project in the second,might just go for whichever talented guy slipped through he cracks irregardless of position

 

All right thanks guys. I know the title of the thread is "who we should draft at #9", but we're pretty much all about the PF/SF/C player. Since there's hardly any centers in this draft, we're thinking PF or SF.

Those picks probably will effect our 2nd round choosings like REREM brought up so we don't have a bottleneck at certain positions.

 

Warriors call-backs for a second workout---Diogu,Granger + Warrick,which would be the 3 guys i'd expect they'd narrow it down to. At least a 50-50 chance Granger is picked before 9....so

I was on the Diogu bandwagon when it was just a Radio Flyer,and he's still a nice fit. There's a hot rumour the Lakers are dealing for the #3 to grab Green. That could be-or was-an option for us. We are not working out a lot of later rd 1 types-may mean no deal pending in that area. The new CBA can make some undrafted player a nice long shot. Yard sale price tags. Point G's,overlooked shooters. 14 man rosters add some options.

 

Looks like Warriorfansnc93 and REREM called on Granger being above the #9 pick. Granger has gone as high s #7 on a couple of mock drafts. Anyway this part is funny.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><font face="arial,sans-serif"><font size="2">Would the Warriors really do this
Keep an eye on the Golden State Warriors. They're sitting at No. 9, and would like to move up.

As trade bait they could use Mike Dunleavy, who would be a nice fit for the Blazers (because he can shoot), and there's probably not room for both Mickael Pietrus and Dunleavy in the Warriors long-term future.

It seems a little soon to give up on Dunleavy, but are the Warriors motivated enough to jump up to No. 3 to get Troy Murphy some help?

Dunleavy, in a head-to-head comparison with Darius Miles beats Miles' averages in points, rebounds, assists and he's better in three-point field goal percentage and free-throw percentage.

Miles is a touch better than Dunleavy in field goal percentage (.482 to .451) but I know who I'd take in a game of H-O-R-S-E.</font></font></div>
http://www.oregonlive.com/canzano/

If the Blazers were interested in Dunleavy for our #9 for their #3, where do we freakin' sign? I don't think there's any big man with star potential at #3 that we can't take at #9, but we do get our choice of Gerald Green, Deron Williams, Chris Paul. That might be tempting for anyone on draft day to make a deal for any one of them or we could just take Gerald Green.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Looks like Warriorfansnc93 and REREM called on Granger being above the #9 pick. Granger has gone as high s #7 on a couple of mock drafts. Anyway this part is funny.


http://www.oregonlive.com/canzano/

If the Blazers were interested in Dunleavy for our #9 for their #3, where do we freakin' sign? I don't think there's any big man with star potential at #3 that we can't take at #9, but we do get our choice of Gerald Green, Deron Williams, Chris Paul. That might be tempting for anyone on draft day to make a deal for any one of them or we could just take Gerald Green.</div>
That looks like a sexy trade. Whoever wrote taht must be insane though.

 

I think Dunleavy is much better trade bait than the lakers offering of caron and the 10th pick if the blazers are listening i'd think the warriors would be a better trading partner. But that would be too high to take granger.

 

The only reason to do that deal is if the Warriors were in love with Green. It wouldn't make sense to take Deron Williams or Paul since they have Davis.

 

The only player that I really liked at #9 was Splitter. Now that he's pulled his name out of the draft, I think the best option for the Warriors is to try and trade the pick for the #20 and #22 picks from Denver and then draft purely on potential.

Diogu is only 6'8 when he's wearing 1 1/2 inch shoes, which means he's not really capable of playing center for anyone except the Knicks. And he won't have the lateral quickness to guard threes...which means you're basically drafting a player who can only play one position. At 6'8 in shoes and 250, he's much closer to his ceiling physically than most prospects in the draft, and I think that's one of the key reasons for his success in college, especially in the pac-10. At 20 or 22 he's not a bad value...but not in the lottery.

As far as Frye, I hope the Knicks draft him. I've watched enough of him in the Pac-10 to come to the opinion that he does not have the kind of intensity or toughness needed for a player with his build will need in the NBA. He'll get pushed around in the NBA, and the line about his game being fully developed and ready to contribute will only hurt him because he'll be put on the court early. He's not that good of an athlete, so I don't think he can play power forwards. I question the way he reacts on the court, and I think he's sort of a backseat player, with little aggressiveness, and he's going to be the center of the future? Where is the track record of Lute Olson developing big men? Frye's potential looks very limited. Sounds like last year's "ready to play, but with limited potential" center prospect, Rafael Araujo. Ready to play in college and ready to play in the NBA are two separate things.

Warrick is another player who I think can really only play one position in the NBA, small forward. I read someone on another board alluding to the Warriors perhaps wanting Warrick as a PF like the Suns used Marion this year...dear God, I hope Mullin doesn't walk into that trap. The Suns went as far as they could go with that, and they had the benefit of a great distributor, several good three point shooters and a monster inside. The Warriors only have players who think they're great three point shooters and as of now, no great interior presence. Much different. And the Suns struggle to stop anyone, defensively. And I continue to wonder what is so great about a "a small forward version of Stromile Swift". I don't see him leading the Grizzlies anywhere. He has great athletic ability, which will get you in the door in the NBA, but has a limited overall skill level and MUST be in transition to be effective. Will struggle to create his own offense, the Warriors already have several players like that on the roster...one of the reason's why, at one point in the season, they were leading the NBA in jump shots.

I'd rather they just moved down and wait to see which players fall. At "full potential", the list of players like Bynum (who'll probably be long gone by 20, he may even be gone by 9 according to some reports), Petro, Blatche, Andriuskevicius, Korolev, Ilyasova, Taft, McCants and Ukic look better than some of the players I hear being mentioned at 9. If someone like Warrick, Diogu, Vazquez, or someone else falls, think about them at 20 or 22, not at 9. What's the point of spending a lottery pick on someone with limited potential who'll be coming off the bench from the beginning? Nobody in this draft other than Bogut would come in and start for the Warriors, unless they trade some of their personnel. And players like Biedrins, Cabarkapa, Pietrus and Fisher are all going to need minutes next year. By the time some of the players in this draft will be getting really quality minutes for the W's, which may be two or three years down the line, some of the players picked behind them will have already passed them. I'd rather take my chances with them later on in the draft, than going for the guy most ready to play now but won't improve much once he reaches the league.

And I don't like Nate Robinson or Salim Stoudamire in the second round. Robinson is not a player who you can keep on the floor for extended minutes. Experienced guards will take advantage of his height disadvantage, I don't see him disrupting passing lanes at 5'9. He used to play football, so he's strong physically, but teams will make him defend in the half court and he'll be a big liability. At best, he's Earl Boykins, but I think Boykins' game is much more mature than Robinson's.

And Stoudamire, his game is very limited. I don't think he has the overall game to stay on the court for huge minutes. Yes, he's a great shooter. But, he's also a streaky shooter. What contributions does he bring to a team when he's not shooting well? And with limited minutes and being much further down as an offensive option than he was in college, it will be much harder for him to get hot, or streaky, in the NBA. A 6'1 shooting guard? It will be very hard for him to succeed in the NBA...and there's no way he plays in front of Derek Fisher.

 

Goldenstatefan, I think you have a lot of the same worries I do. If the #20 or #22 trade idea went through I hope it could land us Andrew Bynum, Chris Taft or Andray Blatche. I too liked Tiago Splitter and ever since he pulled out, I've been kind of bummed.

For 2nd rounders, I was hoping we could land somebody like Linus Kleiza, Ronnie Turiaf, Brandon Bass, <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font size="2"> Stefano Mancinelli, Lucas Tischer or maybe Louis Williams. I don't know any real point guards that can score and playmake in the 2nd round so if something happens we might as well employ Jrich or Dunleavy at the point and call somebody up from the CBA or NBDL.

Oh wait a minute, there's actually Chris Thomas who might be a decent 3rd stringer or 2nd stringer. Wil Bynum and Aaron Miles might be all right, but we should treat our 2nd rounders like we do with our firsts and go for the BAP in the 2nd round.
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