<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post">AT 6' 11" he doesn't go into the post nearly enough and I don't blame that on the offense or on other players. It's him. Once he establishes himself as post-first presence (and I mean calling for the ball consistently, not just grabbing boards and getting put-back buckets) then he will truly be scary because he will truly be a player without a flaw. A defensive monster who can block shots, take people down low, hit the outside jumper, AND dribble the ball.</div> You cleary do not watch the Timberwolves play. Garnett posts up, yes he should more, but the way you are describing him, you act like he has never set foot in the paint. You got to also remember, this guy has a natural slim frame... so he cant bang inside like Shaq and Duncan EVER SINGLE play. And he calls for the ball... dont give me that bullcrap. Before his only flaw was that he was to passive in closing minutes of the 4th. Now his flaw is he has no post game. It changes all the time.
Hey this might be a biased. By I think Vince should be thrown into this MVP race. Look what he has done this year after all the injuries last two years. He currently Avgs. 23 pts, 5 boards and asists. Whats more is, he is showing he wants it more than anybody else. He has destroyed teams in the 4th quarter with clutch rebounds, blocks, jumpers, and everything he can possibly do to win games. Also he makes everybody around him so much better, which i think Iverson does not do. Sure, Iverson does avg decent number of asists, but I think at times he just tries to take over and bring it all on himself. While, Vince will defer to his teamates, but will step up in a big way when the team is in need, especially inthr fourth quarter this year. Also, he is playing great defense this year unlike other years. But , I am not saying Vince deserves MVP right now, but i think he should definately be mentioned to be one of the top candidates.
I would say Vince is playing better than any other perimeter players out there right now, other than KG and maybe BD.
Vince is playing great, but his numbers are still down from a couple of years ago, and I think that will hurt his chances. Also, his team only started doing much better after the trade, so I think Jalen and Donyell have to be given some of that credit - it's not like Vince started playing much better after the trade. BD is still the East MVP right now. AI is close, but he does this EVERY year. And his team isn't doing as well as they were in '01 even though the talent is better, and I think that since his numbers are lower than they were in '01 that that will hurt his chances. Overall, KG is still the Man. He's enabled Cassell and Sprewell to get involved, and now they're starting to have the big games that they're capable of having. However, he's still stamped the wolves as his own, and is doing the things they can't, like rebounding and blocking shots. Almost all his numbers(except assists, which has to do with Sam and Latrell handling the ball more than the Twolves' usual 1 and 2) are up, and that should be attributed to KG's improved play.
Paul Pierce gets his name thrown into the hat for MVP. <font size="1">(Please read that 5 times before responding people)</font>
Please don't feed me that "you must not watch Garnett stuff." I've been watching and enjoing KG's game for years. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. If you think I'm hating on KG, look at my first thread where I said that he and Baron are the favorites for MVP. But the fact is he doesn't go inside ENOUGH. Notice I didn't say that he's afraid of going inside or that he doesn't go in at all. Just not nearly enough. I will grant you that he plays in the key more than before, and if he's smart he'll go there more and more frequently. When he establishes himself primarily as a post presence there won't be enough room on the mantle for all of his MVP's. As for the "he's too skinny to consistently post up" argument, I'd point out Gasol to you. Offensively Gasol hardly ever leaves the paint and according to espn Gasol is only 7 pounds heavier.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post">As for the "he's too skinny to consistently post up" argument, I'd point out Gasol to you. Offensively Gasol hardly ever leaves the paint and according to espn Gasol is only 7 pounds heavier.</div> If Gasol plays so much in the paint... and it is a MUST for you to be a big time player... then why would his #s be down? Doesnt make sense to me. Garnett is able to play his game inside, and out. He's clearly no Duncan or Shaq in the paint... but when he needs to play inside he does. Oh and another point of the Gasol... Garnett carries a more offensive load... the man is double teamed way more times than Gasol, and has more responsibilities... so your comparision isnt exactly even.
Calm down man, I'm only talking about a basketball player. Why are you twisting my words? I didn't say anything about "big time." I said "to consistently win MVP" and "to be considered a 'flawless' player..." So consider that, not "big time" whatever that is.... As for Gasol, he's played in the paint since he came into the league and he's had 2 years of great numbers so I don't see what playing in the paint has to do with his statistical dip this year. Duncan plays in the paint to, but I have a hunch his stats willcome around too. Just because you play in the paint doesn' mean you won't have bad games and bad stretches like any other player. Get used to the fact that there is no perfect player in the league, including KG. (Shaq might be, if he could start hitting free throws and a top of the key jumper, but for some reason I don't see that happening.)
i agree with purehoops on this topic.. garnett is great and he is doing things we can only imagine, being a "post presence" or not.. i dont think he needs to post up any more than he is, ive seen him do it, and he used to post up a lot.. now he has his shot down and there is no need for him to go into the paint when he can just bring the big man guarding him to the perimiter, where he clearly has the advantage gasol is not in KG's league, and i dont think you can argue with what KG is doing; stat-wise and the leadership aspect of his game.. he IS the definition of the most valuable player .. so far
2 points 1) If you even read my earlier threads, I didn't mention Gasol to say that Gasol was as good as KG. Simply to show that you don't have to be 300 pounds to earn your living in the post. You think that KG is maximizing his talents right now shooting jumpers over people? Have you ever had to guard a guy who's 3" taller than you, has longer arms than you, and is more athletic and can outjump you. They get easy shots and if they miss they're close to the basket to collect rebounds. KG has at least 3" in height over most small forwards and an inch over most power forwards. If he doesn't have the longest wingspan in the NBA he's gotta be in the top 3. And he can outjump anyone near his size. It's those kind of massive physical attributes that will be better utilized near the hoop instead of outside. 2) KG is not the "definition of MVP. There are are a few cats playing good ball and he's one of them. I'd put him, Baron Davis and Pierce as the favorites at this point, but you can bet that Shaq, TMAC, and Dirk will start putting together great games as the year rolls on. I think you guys are obsessing way too much over the "perfection" of one player. Maybe a statement from one of the best athletes of all time, Bruce Lee, as quoted in the classic "Enter the Dragon," can help you. "It's like a finger pointing away to the moon, dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory" Translation: Finger=KG all the heavenly glory=NBA
Pierce for MVP? I don't think that he's anywhere near the top few guys right now. Don't know if he's even one of the top ten valuable players. But KG is the best right now, almost hands down. I'd almost say he's running away with it now. He's passed BDiddy in scoring, and was already first in rebounds, and among the leaders in blocks. And the way he can take over the game like against Sacto shows his true value.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post">KG is not the "definition of MVP. </div> Please explain what the "definition" of a MVP is for me please. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post"> There are are a few cats playing good ball and he's one of them. I'd put him, Baron Davis and Pierce as the favorites at this point, but you can bet that Shaq, TMAC, and Dirk will start putting together great games as the year rolls on. </div> Who is saying that these guys arnt going to put together great games later in the season. And what is to say that Garnett isnt and wont continue to put together great games. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think you guys are obsessing way too much over the "perfection" of one player. Maybe a statement from one of the best athletes of all time, Bruce Lee, as quoted in the classic "Enter the Dragon," can help you. </div> I never said that any player was perfect... the closet player to perfection was Wilt and their will never be a player as good as him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Gasol, he's played in the paint since he came into the league and he's had 2 years of great numbers</div> Great numbers? Since when have Gasol's numbers been great? If his numbers were great, then what would you consider Garnett's, Duncan's, Shaq's (ect) numbers? Goldy? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just because you play in the paint doesn' mean you won't have bad games and bad stretches like any other player.</div> Why was stuff like this brought into the arguement... I didnt, nor would I disagree with that.
Somehow you keep missing my point and since I can tell that you refuse to hear it, I'll give up. But to respond to just a few of the things you said 1) "definition of MVP"--that's exactly my point. If you read Whiteman's last post, he said that "KG is the definition of MVP"--well, you can say that about 5 or 6 great players, at least. 2) Your "who is saying" line--Who is? That's the point! It's early and a lot of things have to happen--there is no obvious MVP choice. 3) Obsession--the way you refuse to accept any argument to the contrary looks an awful lot like obsession to me. KG is just a basketball player.(Nice avatar and signature, though 4) Your'e last quote of me was my direct response to statement: "If Gasol plays so much in the paint... and it is a MUST for you to be a big time player... then why would his #s be down? " First, I never said that it was a "must"--it's called maximizing your advantages when you're 6'11"!! Second, my statement was made to illustrate the fact that Gasol's down numbers this year have nothing to do with the fact that he plays in the paint, as opposed to shooting 20' jumpers all day. Which apparently is the one thing you agree with.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post">Somehow you keep missing my point and since I can tell that you refuse to hear it, I'll give up. But to respond to just a few of the things you said 1) "definition of MVP"--that's exactly my point. If you read Whiteman's last post, he said that "KG is the definition of MVP"--well, you can say that about 5 or 6 great players, at least. 2) Your "who is saying" line--Who is? That's the point! It's early and a lot of things have to happen--there is no obvious MVP choice. 3) Obsession--the way you refuse to accept any argument to the contrary looks an awful lot like obsession to me. KG is just a basketball player.(Nice avatar and signature, though 4) Your'e last quote of me was my direct response to statement: "If Gasol plays so much in the paint... and it is a MUST for you to be a big time player... then why would his #s be down? " First, I never said that it was a "must"--it's called maximizing your advantages when you're 6'11"!! Second, my statement was made to illustrate the fact that Gasol's down numbers this year have nothing to do with the fact that he plays in the paint, as opposed to shooting 20' jumpers all day. Which apparently is the one thing you agree with. </div> Lemme reply to #4 first... I worded what I said wrong... What I meant was why are Gasol's numbers down from what Garnett puts up, since he plays in the paint so much. Reply to #1... I agree, Garnett isnt the definition of an MVP... dont direct stuff like that towards me when I dont state it. Yea their is no clear cut MVP for the entire season... the thread was brought up prematurley... but everyone was talkin about how Baron Davis was MVP thru the first 10 games... why not make a thread about who was MVP thru 1/4 of the season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">3) Obsession--the way you refuse to accept any argument to the contrary looks an awful lot like obsession to me. KG is just a basketball player.(Nice avatar and signature, though </div> Hahaha I love this... is this supposed to be some kinda attack? Yea Garnett is obviously my favorite player... I own my own .com on him (kgsource.com)... But it works both ways... you seem to put down Garnett in anyway possible.... why do I say that? Check out my nice lil response to you in Top 5 Front Court players... and lets see you argue your way out of that mess. By friggin way... just because Garnett shots jumpers shouldnt make you downgrade him... just because he has more outside skill than Duncan, Gasol or whoever shouldnt hold him back from an MVP (if he continues to play like this)... clearly a stupid reason to say he wouldnt deserve and MVP. And boy do I mean stupid.
Re: Gasol. Gasol isn't as good as KG!! I thought that was obvious. That's why his #'s are lower! You didn't hear me mention Gasol as an MVP because I only mentioned him to prove a very specific point (which was lost on you) Re:"Definition of MVP." I never said that you made the statement. I specifically said that whiteman did. Read the posts. And chill with that "don't direct that stuff at me." Re: obsession. Again, you prove my point. I've said so many positive things about Garnett its ridiculous. But you won't be happy until I say he's the best player in the league and I won't because he isn't. One day he may be... and I didn't say he had to play inside to win an MVP either. I said that IF he played inside he would have more MVP's then he would know what to do with because he would maximizing his physical attributes. Please respond to that rather than attacking me as "stupid" because I disagree with you. And also tell me how the point #1 that I made in post 147 isn't true. The man could be unstoppable if he dug in down low. Oh wait, was that too critical
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post">Re: Gasol. Gasol isn't as good as KG!! I thought that was obvious. That's why his #'s are lower! You didn't hear me mention Gasol as an MVP because I only mentioned him to prove a very specific point (which was lost on you)</div> And Im telling you its not a fair comparison... you say Gasol makes his living in a paint because thats all he can do... Garnett go from inside and out... he is able to do both. GET THE POINT? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post"> Re:"Definition of MVP." I never said that you made the statement. I specifically said that whiteman did. Read the posts. And chill with that "don't direct that stuff at me." </div> I am quite chill... I dont know how I am coming off when I post but I dont seem to be as angry as you. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post"> Re: obsession. Again, you prove my point. I've said so many positive things about Garnett its ridiculous. But you won't be happy until I say he's the best player in the league and I won't because he isn't. One day he may be... </div> Said so many postive things?!?!?!... All I see you "obessing" about is how Garnett doesnt play the paint every offensive possession. You ever thing that not ever player's game is the same? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bling bling bli:</div><div class="quote_post"> and I didn't say he had to play inside to win an MVP either. I said that IF he played inside he would have more MVP's then he would know what to do with because he would maximizing his physical attributes. Please respond to that rather than attacking me as "stupid" because I disagree with you. And also tell me how the point #1 that I made in post 147 isn't true. The man could be unstoppable if he dug in down low. Oh wait, was that too critical </div> I said I agree... I said Garnett probably doesnt play the paint as much as he should. But I did mention that he does play inside and out... you act like he has never touched foot in the paint. p friggin s... If I really believed you were stupid... I wouldnt bother responding... you bring up good arguements, thus my reason for arguing... p friggin s2... I would like to see a response in the TOP 5 Frontcourt players, and why you conviently forgot to mention Garnett (as we are having this arguement)>
KG can play inside AND outside. He just sometimes play the outside to draw his big man out and beat them with his athleticism. As purehoops pointed out, he's being doubleteamed a lot of times especially when he's in the paint.
Well, what is the definition of an MVP? Seriously. Does it not stand for Most Valuable Player? What does that mean exactly? If it means having great stats, well then, KG pretty much cleans that up. Does it mean the player most valuable to their team? An Iverson-less 76ers are worse than a Garnett-less Wolves. The reason there is so much debate is bec. there is no 'clear cut' definition on what a MVP is. If it truly means 'most valuable player,' than how could Kidd not have earned it 2 years ago? The problem is.....there is no definition.
