I really hate the idea that everyone calls MJ the greatest player ever to shoot a basketball. I think he was great in his era, but to be named the best of all time? I dont know it just bugs the hell out of me. I could accept the fact that he may be the best Guard of all time. The guy was no doubt great and at times unbelievable (eg. playin sick and still scoring 30+), but if we look at stats and what other players have done in the game of basketball, we cant deny that their may be players that have done more on the floor than MJ himself. MJ's Stats at Guard G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG 1,072 .497 . .327 .835 6,672 6.2 5,633 5.3 32,292 30.1 Wilts Stats at Center (check out those rpg! 23 per game!!!! woot!) G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG 1,045 .540 .511 23,924 22.9 4,643 4.4 31,419 30.1 Now do we see just how close the comparisons in stats are. Jordan played players such as Isiah, Magic, Miller, etc... Wilt played players such as Oscar,Russel, Moses,etc... Im probrably just ranting. But friends of mine keep telling me how great Jordan was without recognizing others and their greatness. Wilt stands right beside Jordan IMO. You just cant rank players with that type of talent. Magic Johnsons stats at Guard Check out his assists (11apg) G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG 906 .520 .303 .848 6,559 7.2 10,141 11.2 1,724 374 17,707 19.5 I think it would be easier to rank players according to position. Jordan as a shooting guard. Yeah, I would argue he ranks #1. Wilt as a center? Yeah definately #1 Shaq and Kareem prob tied for 2nd. Then we have Magic, look at his assists and points. He dished it and still scored. Best point guard ever. Could post up and pass, shoot, etc...... Okay, Im tired now. hehe. Argue it all you want! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">I really hate the idea that everyone calls MJ the greatest player ever to shoot a basketball. I think he was great in his era, but to be named the best of all time? I dont know it just bugs the hell out of me. I could accept the fact that he may be the best Guard of all time. The guy was no doubt great and at times unbelievable (eg. playin sick and still scoring 30+), but if we look at stats and what other players have done in the game of basketball, we cant deny that their may be players that have done more on the floor than MJ himself. MJ's Stats at Guard G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG 1,072 .497 . .327 .835 6,672 6.2 5,633 5.3 32,292 30.1 Wilts Stats at Center (check out those rpg! 23 per game!!!! woot!) G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG 1,045 .540 .511 23,924 22.9 4,643 4.4 31,419 30.1 Now do we see just how close the comparisons in stats are. Jordan played players such as Isiah, Magic, Miller, etc... Wilt played players such as Oscar,Russel, Moses,etc... Im probrably just ranting. But friends of mine keep telling me how great Jordan was without recognizing others and their greatness. Wilt stands right beside Jordan IMO. You just cant rank players with that type of talent. Magic Johnsons stats at Guard Check out his assists (11apg) G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG 906 .520 .303 .848 6,559 7.2 10,141 11.2 1,724 374 17,707 19.5 I think it would be easier to rank players according to position. Jordan as a shooting guard. Yeah, I would argue he ranks #1. Wilt as a center? Yeah definately #1 Shaq and Kareem prob tied for 2nd. Then we have Magic, look at his assists and points. He dished it and still scored. Best point guard ever. Could post up and pass, shoot, etc...... Okay, Im tired now. hehe. Argue it all you want! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:</div> I gotta agree with every thing you just said but IMO I see Wilt better than MJ. Its actually hard. MJ was the greatest guard. Wilt was the greatest center.
Who cares? He still played against some great big men. And he dominated. If he was just a bit better then them, I would agree with you. But..... FIFTY POINTS PER GAME FOR A WHOLE SEASON?
MJ led his team to 6 championships, which would have been undoubtedly 9 championships in a row if he had not retired. If Wilt was so dominant, why could he not lead his team to more than 2 championships? And whoever made the point that he averaged 54 points for a season, MJ finished with the highest career average ever (only relinquished after he came back from retirement for a second time) , higher than Wilt's, even with the 54 point season.
Just something to ponder...if the Houston Rockets (back in say...1995) were to pass the ball to Hakeem Olajuwon every single play during a game, how many points could he score playing all 48 minutes? Give him 63 shot attempts, with only 2 assists (that's what Wilt got). Remember, Shaq said it himself in 1995...Hakeem wiped the floor with him. Hakeem should always be considered a better center than Shaq...and should be up there with the likes of Wilt and Kareem, also. Think about it. Don't give Wilt so much credit for the 100-point game either, guys. Dajuan Wagner scored over 100 in a game once (not NBA, but still...) and Frank Selvy did it in an NCAA game (does anyone even know who Selvy is?). So did Paul Arizin and Bevo Francis. Scoring 100 points, especially against a guy off the Knicks named Darrall Imhoff (look him up), is a great feat, but it doesn't make you an incredible player. An average of 50+ ppg is also great, but he did it once. And...he wouldn't be able to do it in today's league if he was the same age as he was in the 60's and 70's. Basketball lacked talent back then, and as far as players sharing the ball...if you had Wilt on your team, he would get nearly 40 shot attempts per game only because at this point of time, if you were a big star, you owned the ball. Jerry West and Pistol Pete made this change slightly, but until Iverson, Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Kobe, and LeBron came along...size mattered more than anything else.
^ I've always considered Hakeem one of the best players of all-time, he was so much more skilled and talented than Shaq is (who seems to think that he is the most dominant player of all time).
Forget stats...just go by watching the games in which they played in. ^ I agree...Hakeem was dope. But Magic had Worthy, Kareem, McAdoo, Scott, etc. But Bird had Parish, McHale, Walton, etc. But MJ had Pippen, Robotic shooters, and DAVID STERN and the REFS But Wilt was 7ft. tall just placed a ball in a circle But Kobe had Shaq But Hakeem had Drexler and Drexler had him plus cassel and horry. But Isiah had Dumars, Lambeer (whatever), Rodman You can go on and on about stupid ***** bottom line...they are all humans (some of you forget that)...and all play the same sport...they all play basketball...We cannot determine which is the greatest player ever, cause there isn't a "GREATEST" ever. There isn't no GREATEST ever, we just have opinions. OPINIONS are not facts. It depends on how "you" measure "greatness" You can go by rings, points, leadership, etc. You can go by intangibles, and positions. You can hypothesize and say if MJ did not retire he would've won more rings. Or you can say if he was on the west he wouldn't be what he is today. If Kobe did't have Shaq, he would be ringless. If Wilt played today, bla bla bla, etc. If Magic didn't have those greats with him, etc. If Bird was black, etc. If Shaq was smaller, etc. We can say whatever we want, but we won't trully know which players are better, because they play in different enviroments, team wise/conference wise/and coach wise. The only way we can conlude which players are good are by stats and figs. But we will never know...and doesn't really conclude that this player is the GREATEST. PEACE
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But Kobe had Shaq</div>why would you mention him into that list, Kobe isn't even the top 20 greatest players of all-time?
Ok, here's my thought. Wilt played in an era where there was no one at all near his size. He was able to dominate everyone that went against him. The fact is, back than, there was really no one outside of him who hit 7'. He was just able to use his size and strength to dominate everyone of his era. MJ, on the other hand, dominated the league as a guard. He was also able to do everything, not just score. He could pass the ball very well, as that is shown by his assists, he could also rebound very well for a guard. And, not only could he dominate on the offensive end, he could dominate on the defensive end. He was an unbelievable one-on-one defender. Than, one of the most amazing things about him, outside of his 30.1 career ppg, his career FG%. 49.7% career for a guard is unbelievable. You'd expect that out of most power forwards or centers, but not a guard. So, after all these arguments though, I still have to think that MJ was the greatest. He played in an era where there were other guards who were as big as him and what not. To me, it'd be harder to dominate as a guard cause there are always people of your size and it makes it harder to beat them down low and what not. As for Wilt, no one was ever really close in size to him. You can argue for people like Moses Malone, but, even then, he still 3 inches shorter and ddin't weigh as much as Wilt. This is why I think MJ was better. He had more competition during his era than Wilt had during his.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Fundamentals:</div><div class="quote_post">why would you mention him into that list, Kobe isn't even the top 20 greatest players of all-time?</div> Hes a Kobe groupie thats why.
IMO MJ is not the greatest o fall time, #1 because LACK OF DEFENCE IN THE LEAGUE.. it was embarassing how many garbage fakes worked on people (sorry but its true).. #2 we dont know how he wouldve done against todays players... he would be matched against guys like kobe, tmac, artest, and when he drove he would meet players like ben wallace, shaq, jermain oniel, amare. #3 i have many jordan games taped and he had many great players to work with who contributed beautifully.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And whoever made the point that he averaged 54 points for a season, MJ finished with the highest career average ever</div> MJ and Wilt both averaged 30.1 per game during their career. Look at the stats. You can go to NBA.com to confirm it. Want the Link????? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Wilt was so dominant, why could he not lead his team to more than 2 championships?</div> So what does that mean, Kobe already has 3 rings so he must be better than Jordan. He is only 25. haha. That 6 ring crap makes me sick. Wilt only owns two cause he had some tough comp. All your babies dont know Oscar Robertson? Moses Malone? The Big Man Bill Russel? Wilt had his own competition at his time. Teams that were all around better than Wilts team. In Wilts later years he was able to play with Jerry West but prior to that he really had no supporting cast. Someone mentioned that Wilt was the only 7 footer. You try scoring 50 points and entire season and grabbing 23 rebounds a game. Then open your mouth. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There isn't no GREATEST ever, we just have opinions.</div> Exactly. You cant rank em based on fact, just an opinion. Jordan will never be "THE GREATEST" in my eyes. Never. Just another great star. There are just too many great players to recognize to rank him above all others.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Fundamentals:</div><div class="quote_post">why would you mention him into that list, Kobe isn't even the top 20 greatest players of all-time?</div> I was just using them as an example of how we argue "If this than this that" and "buts" My first intention was to do the greats, and then I just put him there because that is a famous quote.
Moses Malone didn't even enter the league until the 76-77 season, four years after Wilt retired...so I don't know where you guys are getting the idea they ever played against each other.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting l2emix:</div><div class="quote_post">Um u guys forget dat wilt was the only 7 footer in his time...</div> Very untrue.
Lack of defence is one of the stupidest things ive ever heard of. 10 years from now your gonna say there is a lack of defence. There was tons of defence starting with the 70's Knicks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dddd:</div><div class="quote_post">Moses Malone didn't even enter the league until the 76-77 season, four years after Wilt retired...so I don't know where you guys are getting the idea they ever played against each other.</div> Yeah sorry. I was thinkin Walt Bellamy and Baylor. Malone played in the league during Kareems time not Wilt the Stilt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">MJ and Wilt both averaged 30.1 per game during their career. Look at the stats. You can go to NBA.com to confirm it. Want the Link????? </div> No, I don't want a link but you might want to read my original post (what a concept). I said he had the record for highest career scoring average before he foolishly came out of retirement to try his hand at playing for the Wizards. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> So what does that mean, Kobe already has 3 rings so he must be better than Jordan. He is only 25. haha. That 6 ring crap makes me sick. Wilt only owns two cause he had some tough comp. All your babies dont know Oscar Robertson? Moses Malone? The Big Man Bill Russel? Wilt had his own competition at his time. Teams that were all around better than Wilts team. In Wilts later years he was able to play with Jerry West but prior to that he really had no supporting cast. </div> No where did I say that just because MJ had more rings made him better because of that fact alone. Championships=dominance. If Wilt, (along with MJ) was the best player to ever play the game, why couldn't he even dominate the players of his own era to win more championships. MJ had Pippen but who else did he have? MJ carried the team and it was his team an no one else's. He was always responsible for taking the biggest shots and guarding the best players on the other team, not Pippen. As for the rest, they were good role players because Jordan made them better. How well did they do when Jordan left them to fend for themselves? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Exactly. You cant rank em based on fact, just an opinion. Jordan will never be "THE GREATEST" in my eyes. Never. Just another great star. There are just too many great players to recognize to rank him above all others.</div> you say that, but you contradicted yourself by calling Magic the "best point guard ever" in your first post. I believe that you are ranking point guards and ranking him above all others in that category.
