With the 7th pick, the Toronto Raptors select Charlie Villenuva...

Discussion in 'Toronto Raptors' started by VinKanaddy, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    No, I'm saying GMs and Scouts know more than you, and every other person who follows basketball... it's just that people make mistakes. If noone made mistakes what kind of world would we be living in... noone's perfect.

    And I wasn't frowning down on your knowledge of Danny Granger, or basketball I was just stating that it's obvious that scouts and GMs who are PAID to do what they do, full time would most likely know more than you or anyone not working at that postiion about drafting... and again, people make mistakes. We're all human.
     
  2. Voodoo Child

    Voodoo Child Can I Kick It?

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    11,032
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I'm saying GMs and Scouts know more than you, and every other person who follows basketball... it's just that people make mistakes. If noone made mistakes what kind of world would we be living in... noone's perfect.

    And I wasn't frowning down on your knowledge of Danny Granger, or basketball I was just stating that it's obvious that scouts and GMs who are PAID to do what they do, full time would most likely know more than you or anyone not working at that postiion about drafting... and again, people make mistakes. We're all human.</div>

    Still, you're underestimating a true basketball fan here. I see on average 100-300 college basketball games LIVE, watch maybe three to five times more on television, and I see a lot of tapes/live feeds of a fair share of international prospects as well. The only prospects I'm not well versed on are High School prospects (outside of Southern/Detroit prospects who I know a lot about), and by saying that I mean that I only watch a few All-Star games, read about them on the net, and things like that. I'm still very familiar with them. (Yeah, I know I'm way too fanatical about college basketball... so what? It's what I love.)

    Yes, a person who is <font size="7">PAID</font> has more resources, but that does not mean that he can judge talent better than I can. I'm just not buying that.

    I remember when the Cavaliers drafted Dajuan Wagner. I told the posters on the message board I moderated at the time that I attended every one of Wagner's regular season games live and felt that he wasn't NBA material. Too short to play Shooting Guard, too dumb to pick up the plays as a Point Guard; a real me-first player who needs the ball in his hands all 48 minutes to be productive. I was slapped with the same criticism that you guys are giving me, but we know where Wagner is now. I called Zach Randolph's breakout. I called Chris Wilcox's bust of a career (as well as Marcus Haislip). I called Mo Williams' better than expected career. I could go on all day on things that I called yet was bashed for, so this thread is nothing new to me. I'm not saying I'm all-knowing, because I say some stupid things, and I'm often corrected (or pwned if you will). But what I will say is that I do know my college basketball players, and I don't need to have the resources of a scout or their fancy title to judge talent.

    Understand where I'm coming from?

    <font size="1">(Wow, that entire post I just made sounds like a resume... I apologize if it was too self-focussed, but I had to explain how I feel I have a certain degree of credibility.)</font>
     
  3. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    If you feel that you are on that high of a plateau, I don't understand why you woulnd't accept the benjamins of being an NBA scout instead of going for a business degree... you said you don't want to be part of it, but it makes no sense seeing as your entire life revolves around watching players play... baffles me.
     
  4. Voodoo Child

    Voodoo Child Can I Kick It?

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    11,032
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">If you feel that you are on that high of a plateau, I don't understand why you woulnd't accept the benjamins of being an NBA scout instead of going for a business degree... you said you don't want to be part of it, but it makes no sense seeing as your entire life revolves around watching players play... baffles me.</div>

    Well, saying my entire life revolves around watching players play is a rather contemptuous way to put it. I attend classes, hold down a job, play a lot of basketball, workout, and have a very active social life as well as an on-and-off girlfriend. JustBBall.Com and watching basketball is what I do in my downtime. If I have a date, I'm not going to reschedule because a basketball game is on. It's not like that.

    Simply put, it's a hobby. Some men work with computers. Some men build model airplanes. I watch basketball. How can you not be absolutely enthralled with the depth of feeling that goes into college basketball games? It's not my life though; just a hobby. On the other hand, getting an MBA would set me on the way to a career. Becoming a scout would be too risky anyway, and I doubt it would pay as much as a job I could get with a University of Michigan MBA (#3 business school in the nation behind Penn and M.I.T.).

    So am I finished now? Are you done grilling me about my life, my credibility, and my aspirations? It's getting more than a little annoying and I don't see where you're going with the questioning. My beliefs have been stated since the first post. I believe passing up Granger was a mistake and you can't call my views wrong just because I don't have the title of 'scout'. No one has proven me insufficient to judge nor has anyone disproved my viewed my statement about scouts not being godly, all-knowing men (and women).
     
  5. Dunkzilla20

    Dunkzilla20 JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    OK....ARE YOU GUYS FINISHED!!!!! This Post is about CV not about scouts... geeeeez
     
  6. VinKanaddy

    VinKanaddy JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Calm down guys. I didn't start this thread to begin a flame war, and I'd rather keep the focus on the outcome of the Raptors' draft. Simply put, Babcock passing on Granger in the draft may or may not be a mistake, but only time will tell us the answer. Again, while I agree that Granger does possess better overall talent, I cannot and should not predict if he or Graham will become a better player in the NBA. There are just so many intangibles that play into whether or not a college player successfully translates his game to the NBA level, and after watching both Granger and Graham play numerous times I have to concur that Graham would be a better fit for the Raptors, not necessarily a better player, but a better fit.
     
  7. Skiptomylue11

    Skiptomylue11 JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,671
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post"> I believe passing up Granger was a mistake and you can't call my views wrong just because I don't have the title of 'scout'. No one has proven me insufficient to judge nor has anyone disproved my viewed my statement about scouts not being godly, all-knowing men (and women).</div>
    who said scouts are godly all-knowing men? You seem to be quite arrogant about your basketball knowledge. Passing off other people's opinions as moronic and stupid. Doesn't seem like that is how you successfully debate with others.

    Anyone thinking that we might trade Villeneuva + Mo Pete + Aaron Williams to New Orleans?
     
  8. Chutney

    Chutney MON-STRAWRRR!!1!

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Toronto
    I think Voodoo's right about Granger. When I thought that maybe he slipped because of injuries it was merely speculation. One of the problems with forums like these is that its often just lots of people trying to prove that their interpretation of scouting reports is more accurate. However, I think instead of getting angry you could of given support for your opinions. I respect your college basketball knowledge, but your posts in this thread basically said that I've watched Granger and I know he's better and left it at that. Not watching a lot of college ball myself, most of my info has come from articles. If you could give reasons why you think Granger will be a better pro than Villanueva and Graham then a good debate could start.

    I personally think that there was nothing wrong with the Villanueva pick but thought that we should of taken Granger instead of Graham. Seeing as neither have great potential, I'm willing to trade the allaround game of Granger for Graham's athleticism.

    I believe Villanueva and Bosh can work on the same lineup. Not this season, but a couple of years down the road I think they could play next to each other. I mean, McDyess and Wallace were able to hold their own during the playoffs and neither were true centers. I see Bosh's game similar to McDyess' with his developing post moves, and CVill's like Sheed's because he can step out and hit the J as well as rebound. Instead of having a 4 and a 5, I see playing both of them together as having two 4.5's.
     
  9. Shapecity

    Shapecity S2/JBB Teamster Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    45,018
    Likes Received:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Voodoo Child does hold a lot of credibility, even though he's not a professional scout. He helped point out a lot of facts I missed out on during the mock draft and if you look at his track record he is a lot better than a lot of so called "scouts." What he is saying about Granger being better than Graham is absolutely right. Granger is the overall better player. What Voodoo does not have access to are the words said behind the scenes. With all the facts laid out it was a mistake the Raptors passed up on Granger not once, but twice.

    There could be a lot of reasons the Raptors didn't select Granger.

    Maybe in their evaluation he doesn't fit the system the Raptors play better than Joey Graham does.
    Maybe he expressed he didn't want to play in Toronto.
    Maybe a scout got along with Joey Graham's personality a lot more and pushed for him.
    Maybe they didn't like the fact Danny Granger is a Jehovah Witness.
    Maybe the Raptors have a deal in the works.
    Maybe the Raptros owed Joey Graham's agent a favor and took his client to repay the favor.

    The Raptors will likely never let anyone know the real reason they passed up Granger. They'll likely say his injuries scared them off, but his injuries are overrated as Voodoo mentioned.
     
  10. Jones

    Jones JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    well i can't say that i really know thaaat much about graham or granger, but from what i have heard, read, seen (just a few games) I think that while Granger does possess the better overall game Graham can develop into the same player Granger is. he is a hard worker and can improve his scoring. I think I read somewhere that granger a little problem with his lateral quickness (could be wrong) which would limit him a little on 'd' . And if you look at the raptors problems last year they weren't with scoring which is where Granger has the upperhand on Graham (along with shotblocking) and solid all round play. The raptors lacked passion, toughness, and defence which is where I think they like the toughness that Graham brings over Granger. The tools can be tought, and while I can't say that Granger won't get tougher, will he ever be as tough and tenacious as Graham??? Who wouldn't jump at the chance to draft a future Artest (without the headcase issues). In the end i could see Graham getting chosen over Granger because of need, which was the same case with Hoffa last year, he fits into the system and type of player that Sam Mitchell wants.
     
  11. VinKanaddy

    VinKanaddy JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Voodoo Child does hold a lot of credibility, even though he's not a professional scout. He helped point out a lot of facts I missed out on during the mock draft and if you look at his track record he is a lot better than a lot of so called "scouts." What he is saying about Granger being better than Graham is absolutely right. Granger is the overall better player. What Voodoo does not have access to are the words said behind the scenes. With all the facts laid out it was a mistake the Raptors passed up on Granger not once, but twice.

    There could be a lot of reasons the Raptors didn't select Granger.

    Maybe in their evaluation he doesn't fit the system the Raptors play better than Joey Graham does.
    Maybe he expressed he didn't want to play in Toronto.
    Maybe a scout got along with Joey Graham's personality a lot more and pushed for him.
    Maybe they didn't like the fact Danny Granger is a Jehovah Witness.
    Maybe the Raptors have a deal in the works.
    Maybe the Raptros owed Joey Graham's agent a favor and took his client to repay the favor.

    The Raptors will likely never let anyone know the real reason they passed up Granger. They'll likely say his injuries scared them off, but his injuries are overrated as Voodoo mentioned.</div>

    He is one? [​IMG] I'm glad that Babcock didn't take him.
     
  12. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Voodoo Child does hold a lot of credibility, even though he's not a professional scout. He helped point out a lot of facts I missed out on during the mock draft and if you look at his track record he is a lot better than a lot of so called "scouts." What he is saying about Granger being better than Graham is absolutely right. Granger is the overall better player. What Voodoo does not have access to are the words said behind the scenes. With all the facts laid out it was a mistake the Raptors passed up on Granger not once, but twice.

    There could be a lot of reasons the Raptors didn't select Granger.

    Maybe in their evaluation he doesn't fit the system the Raptors play better than Joey Graham does.
    Maybe he expressed he didn't want to play in Toronto.
    Maybe a scout got along with Joey Graham's personality a lot more and pushed for him.
    Maybe they didn't like the fact Danny Granger is a Jehovah Witness.
    Maybe the Raptors have a deal in the works.
    Maybe the Raptros owed Joey Graham's agent a favor and took his client to repay the favor.

    The Raptors will likely never let anyone know the real reason they passed up Granger. They'll likely say his injuries scared them off, but his injuries are overrated as Voodoo mentioned.</div>


    I went on record to say that i wanted Granger over Graham several times based on the fact that he's more skilled overall. However i do feel that Graham is better for what the Raptors needed to do. Here's why...

    1) The Raps havent had a physical presence since Oakley...Graham will give them that edge, that attitude of physicality.
    2) The Raps are a team of jump shooters, and you live and die by the jump shot. Graham will give them some better interior scoring, some banging and slashing where as Granger is a bit more of a 15+ footer kinda player.
    3) The Raps knew that Graham was big on Toronto, much like CV so they got good guys that wanted to be here and give 100%. After Vince's bullshit, AD wanting out and complaining and even Rafer's threats to quit basketball we really needed some guys that didnt bring any drama. While Granger is a standup guy, he said himself he didnt want Toronto to pick him at 16 cause he really wanted to play in Indiana. I'm sure he would of gave his all had things seen him in a Raps uniform, but Graham i think is the type of character that this Toronto team can build around. I see Graham and Bosh getting along perfectly both proffesionally and personally.
     
  13. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Back on topic to Villanueva...

    He will turn out to be a good maybe great player. I can't really see them as McDyess and Wallace, because CV3 and CB4 are much skinnier than Wallance and Antonio.
     
  14. og15

    og15 JBB *********

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Which Wallace are were talking about? Ben or Rasheed?
     
  15. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Both....
     
  16. og15

    og15 JBB *********

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Oh, I see, yea, either way they're still smaller, and also the toughness level, and ability on defense is very different between the players. Just because you have a small frontcourt doesn't mean you can be Ben, Sheed and Dice, you have to have the right kind of players in that frontcourt.
     
  17. Voodoo Child

    Voodoo Child Can I Kick It?

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    11,032
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think Voodoo's right about Granger. When I thought that maybe he slipped because of injuries it was merely speculation. One of the problems with forums like these is that its often just lots of people trying to prove that their interpretation of scouting reports is more accurate. However, I think instead of getting angry you could of given support for your opinions. I respect your college basketball knowledge, but your posts in this thread basically said that I've watched Granger and I know he's better and left it at that. Not watching a lot of college ball myself, most of my info has come from articles. If you could give reasons why you think Granger will be a better pro than Villanueva and Graham then a good debate could start. </div>

    Well, you see, the reason I haven't really kept on track and debated as to why I think Granger is better than Graham is because the first and only thing that really drew my attention to this thread was the poster who suggested that only scouts can know about a players game, and thus the whole "I'm just as knowledgable" rant ensued. So I guess I'll let you guys know in a little more detail why I feel Danny Granger is a better selection than Joey Graham.

    As cliche as it has been these past few weeks, I believe Danny Granger has the edge because he's more well rounded. With Granger, you have a player who is a true Small Forward, unlike Joey Graham. He has certain attributes such as a quick first step or the ability to beat his man off the dribble that Joey Graham lacks. You'll also see that although Graham has a nice developing outside game, Granger is a better shooter (statistically I think Graham may be better, but 3 pt statistics can be very deceiving, especially when Granger is taking a lot more three pointers). He's also a better all-around defender than Graham. I'm not a fan of statistics, but since I just pulled them up, I'd like to point out that Graham didn't even average one block or steal per game, whereas Granger averaged more than two in each category. I also think that Granger, although skinnier, is a better rebounder than Graham, for the position they play. And how can you not consider how good Granger's ball handling is? That's a very important skill for a Small Forward to have, and it's also a skill Graham doesn't have. I also want to point out that while leadership can't really be measured, Granger was one hell of a leader on New Mexico this year, and whoever said Graham was a better leader is sadly mistaken. In short, I think that the only place that Graham really has an advantage over Granger is his size and strength, which gives him the tools to develop into a great defender, but unless he develops better ball handling and a quicker first step, he's going to struggle offensively, especially compared to Granger. Fair enough?
     
  18. Mr.Wade

    Mr.Wade JBB The Canadian Dream

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I feel that Graham is an explosive player, and he can use his size as an advantage to shove around other SFs. That's something we have never had. 1 thing the Raptors lack the most.... TOUGHNESS. Only 1 tough player in our franchise's history was Charles Oakley, but now we have Joey Graham.

    We don't need another shooter on our team, we have Rose, Bosh, MoPete, CV3, Alston, Bonner. So, as long as Graham can hit a open shot (which he can) I could care less.

    Also, I don't think steals are a fair way to say that one is a better defender than another. We all know that A.I isn't a great defender yet averages over 2 spg. That's about gambling.

    Everything you mentioned Granger has over Graham is something the Raptor's staff can easily work with and improve Graham in those aspects. While Granger can't learn toughness, intensity and hustle overnight. And he sure won't be as strong as Graham ever in his career.
     
  19. Chutney

    Chutney MON-STRAWRRR!!1!

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Toronto
    That's a pretty good analysis and I would have to agree that choosing Granger was the better choice. It seems that Graham is a more raw version of Granger. Based on his athleticism I would have figured that Graham would have been a better blocker, but it seems that Granger is still the better defender. Maybe Babcock didn't draft Granger because he thought they his game resembled Mopetes. However, I still think it was the wrong decision.

    Obviously Bosh and CVill have to fill out their frame a bit. Which is why I said it would still take a few years for that type of lineup to work. They need to be experienced and at the height of their game. However, I still think their games resemble Rasheed's and Antonio's. And not just because of their size. They play similarily and hopefully will be able to complement each other.
     
  20. Voodoo Child

    Voodoo Child Can I Kick It?

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    11,032
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">While Granger can't learn toughness, intensity and hustle overnight. And he sure won't be as strong as Graham ever in his career.</div>

    Just because Granger isn't a beefcake, it doesn't mean that he's not tough or intense. Have you ever watched him play? His whole game is based off his consistent hustle and intensity. The dictionary definition of toughness is "capable of enduring strain, hardship, or severe labor". You (Raptors fans) seem so adamant about the fact that he is often injured. Well, to be hurt so many times and be able to successfully return to the basketball court shows that you are capable of enduring strain, hardship, or severe labor; does it not? How about the time about four weeks before the draft where Granger was sent to the hospital with an infected toenail? This was because he split the nail on his big toe and for several weeks didn't have it checked, so as a result, puss started growing under it. Granger ripped the toenail off himself and continued working out for NBA teams. It wasn't found out that he had an infected toenail until he went to Golden State where they were shocked that he went so long without medical treatment with such a serious infection. A few days later, Granger absolutely shut down Hakim Warrick in a workout. So my point of the story is, Granger is a tough player who will endure the worst of pains to play basketball, unlike what you were saying. And just incase you didn't notice, it's better to have great ball handling and perimeter shooting as a wing player rather than strength.
     

Share This Page