With the 7th pick, the Toronto Raptors select Charlie Villenuva...

Voodoo, in your first post debating about Graham and Granger you said Graham never averaged 1 SPG or 1 BPG. But does it really matter? Guys like Bruce Bowen, Greg Bucker, etc. they don't have the stats, but they are still good defenders. Just because a player averages 1 block more than another certain player doesn't mean he's the better defender.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Voodoo, in your first post debating about Graham and Granger you said Graham never averaged 1 SPG or 1 BPG. But does it really matter? Guys like Bruce Bowen, Greg Bucker, etc. they don't have the stats, but they are still good defenders. Just because a player averages 1 block more than another certain player doesn't mean he's the better defender.</div>

I never said that blocks and steals made a player a better defender.

In fact, if you went back and actually read the ENTIRE sentence (I know, that's a hell of a lot of reading), you'll see that I said "(Granger)'s also a better all-around defender than Graham. I'm not a fan of statistics, but since I just pulled them up,..." I wasn't basing my entire argument on statistics. It was just simply something I found along the way. Granger is also the better defender because he has the quickness to keep up with NBA wings, and he just has an overall better head, having great footwork and positioning on defense. Satisfied yet?

 

I think I said it before, but what VC is saying is that Granger is the better man to man, and statistical defender at this point, so Graham doesn't have too much over him right now in the defensive department outside of strength.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">it's better to have great ball handling and perimeter shooting as a wing player rather than strength.</div>

Why does it matter that Granger at this point in his career has better ballhandling and shooting than Graham.

Those 2 are probably the 2 easiest things to learn in basketball, and you don't think Graham who is now a professional and does this for a full time job will work on the only 2 aspects that lacks?

I'll say it again, Graham can hit the open shot, and I'm content with that, b/c we don't need another jump shot happy player on our team. (I'm not saying Granger is that, but he's more likely to become that then Graham is)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">Why does it matter that Granger at this point in his career has better ballhandling and shooting than Graham.

Those 2 are probably the 2 easiest things to learn in basketball, and you don't think Graham who is now a professional and does this for a full time job will work on the only 2 aspects that lacks?

I'll say it again, Graham can hit the open shot, and I'm content with that, b/c we don't need another jump shot happy player on our team. (I'm not saying Granger is that, but he's more likely to become that then Graham is)</div>

Isn't it a little obvious why it matters? Comparing two player's abilities is what you do when you are in an arguement over which one is more talented.

For everything you say Graham will work on, Granger can work on as well. It makes no sense to compare anything but their current skills and abilities. Don't you think Graham should have worked on those two attributes in college? Afterall, he was there for four years and is 23 years old; the window for serious improvement is closing.

The fact of the matter is that right now, Graham is not better than Granger in many places (if any at all outside of brute strength). It's come to the point where you say you don't need "another jump shot" and thus fault Granger for being a better shooter just because you can't think of any areas where Graham is better.

 

the raptors dont need another shoot first player or else 90 percent of our team will think shot rather than lay-up

 

VC, I know Granger is a better shooter than Graham, but I didn't mean it as a fault towards Granger. Although it could be made into that. What if Granger turns into a shot happy player? We have enough of those. We need someone who is a force inside and outside. Graham won't be a shot happy person, BUT HE CAN HIT THE OPEN SHOT and that's all I'm asking from him. I'm not asking him to shoot over 2 guys from the three. I'm saying Graham will bring what Toronto needs, not something Toronto already has.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dabigboshdog:</div><div class="quote_post">the raptors dont need another shoot first player or else 90 percent of our team will think shot rather than lay-up</div>

Are you saying that Danny Granger is a shoot-first player?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">VC, I know Granger is a better shooter than Graham, but I didn't mean it as a fault towards Granger. Although it could be made into that. What if Granger turns into a shot happy player? We have enough of those. We need someone who is a force inside and outside. Graham won't be a shot happy person, BUT HE CAN HIT THE OPEN SHOT and that's all I'm asking from him. I'm not asking him to shoot over 2 guys from the three. I'm saying Graham will bring what Toronto needs, not something Toronto already has.</div>

Have you EVER seen Danny Granger play? He's anything from shot happy. If anything, he's not shot happy enough. Since when does a player having good range make him shot happy?

Incase you don't know, not only does Granger have a higher assist per game average than Graham, but he also shot 31 LESS shots than Joey Graham last season.

And it's ironic that you say you want someone who is a force from inside and outside, because that's DANNY GRANGER. Where have you been for the last three pages of this thread? Did you think I was joking when I said Danny Granger had a well-rounded game?

So what now?

 

I"m saying SINCE Danny Granger is a better shooter than Graham, it is more LIKELY he could become a shot happy player. Graham is also an inside force you can't deny it, how else could he play PF for 2 years... I'm saying since Graham isn't as good a shooter as Granger there is a less chance for him to be taking jumpshots than Granger... I find it simple logic.

And in referral to your comment as Danny Granger being tough, I think you're getting the wrong "tough" idea in mind. The way you perceive it yes, Granger can be tough dictionary wise.

BUT and big but. The toughness Raptor fans are describing follow the traits of Charles Oakley. Toughness meaning intimidating, able to stick up for the stars, push people around, control the game with their strength. Being a big intimidating person, so noone wants to touch the players on the team or they'd have to go through the "tough guy".

And now I ask myself, can I see Danny Granger being a player like that? No, not really.

<font size="1"><font color="Red">Please do not double post. Just use the edit button,
VC</font></font>

 

And in referral to your comment as Danny Granger being tough, I think you're getting the wrong "tough" idea in mind. The way you perceive it yes, Granger can be tough dictionary wise.

BUT and big but. The toughness Raptor fans are describing follow the traits of Charles Oakley. Toughness meaning intimidating, able to stick up for the stars, push people around, control the game with their strength. Being a big intimidating person, so noone wants to touch the players on the team or they'd have to go through the "tough guy".

And now I ask myself, can I see Danny Granger being a player like that? No, not really.

 

yup...it's about time we have a charles oakley-esque player again....so we cant baby CB4 like we did to VC...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">I"m saying SINCE Danny Granger is a better shooter than Graham, it is more LIKELY he could become a shot happy player. Graham is also an inside force you can't deny it, how else could he play PF for 2 years... I'm saying since Graham isn't as good a shooter as Granger there is a less chance for him to be taking jumpshots than Granger... I find it simple logic.

And in referral to your comment as Danny Granger being tough, I think you're getting the wrong "tough" idea in mind. The way you perceive it yes, Granger can be tough dictionary wise.

BUT and big but. The toughness Raptor fans are describing follow the traits of Charles Oakley. Toughness meaning intimidating, able to stick up for the stars, push people around, control the game with their strength. Being a big intimidating person, so noone wants to touch the players on the team or they'd have to go through the "tough guy".

And now I ask myself, can I see Danny Granger being a player like that? No, not
</div>

That is not simple logic. In fact, that makes very little sense at all. You're actually suggesting that since he's a better shooter, he's more likely to become shot happy? Well, I might understand you if you said that about a 16 or 17 year old prospect, but Granger is a grown man who has played four years of big time college basketball. It's not like his game is still in it's developing stages. Last year Danny Granger was a better shooter than Joey Graham, and Graham still took more shots per game. That's going to change in any dramatic way.

As for Graham being an inside force, that'd be great to know if he was playing Power Forward, but he's not going to be. It'd also be great to know if he had a quick first step and could beat his man off the dribble, but he doesn't and he can't. You know, if you're a wing player, you've got to be able to get to the inside before you can be a force there.

I think you're confusing toughness with malice, and Graham is not a player with a lot more viciousness in his game than Danny Granger anyway. Graham not going to be pushing people around on the perimeter either. I think the toughness that Granger has is the kind of toughness you want out of a wing, and Graham's is the type you want out of a post player. Hell, if what you wanted was someone that will physically intimidate, draft an NFL lineman.

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot, screw the dictionary, right? I mean, let's just make our own definition of toughness based on what you feel best describes Joey Graham.

 

Ball handling is never going to be a big part of Joey's game, Graham's ball handling can improve, but he's already a developed player, and the likeliness of it happening isn't that big. He's had 4 years of college, and is 23, and if he wasn't consistent at beating guys with dribble penetration in college, you can't expect him to just develop it like that in the NBA. He'll likely just improve his strengths as opposed to adding new dimensions to his game.

I also don't buy the whole jumpshot happy player thing with Granger. If I remember correctly, many scouts say Granger is one of the best players at getting to the line, I'm not sure what his FTA/G was, but I know it was between 6-8 per game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Graham being an inside force, that'd be great to know if he was playing Power Forward, but he's not going to be. It'd also be great to know if he had a quick first step and could beat his man off the dribble, but he doesn't and he can't. You know, if you're a wing player, you've got to be able to get to the inside before you can be a force there.</div>
I think you see SFs in the NBA being effective as an inside force, ie. Carmelo Athony, Ron Artest, Marion usually plays the 3, etc.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh yeah, and I almost forgot, screw the dictionary, right? I mean, let's just make our own definition of toughness based on what you feel best describes Joey Graham.</div>
If you look up toughness in the dictionary, it has a picture of Joey Graham beside it.

 

So when has it been said that SFs can't and aren't allowed to post up??? Your basically reducing Graham's game to nothing. You're basically saying he can't do anything besides be strong. Funny how he can get 17 and 6 on 53% shooting just from pure strength.

Here's Graham's scouting report.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Graham is a tough nosed, no nonsense type, power 3 ... A physical specimen with great leaping ability who finishes very well ? Has a chiseled body with excellent size, wingspan and great strength ? <u>Very tough player</u>, enjoys contact, rebounds and takes the ball inside especially well ? Has a very effective jump shot ? Has range out to 18 feet, with excellent touch on his shot ? Huge hands make him tough to rip the ball away from and give him an advantage on drives to the basket ? Has a solid base and good rebounding fundamentals ? Plays hard, hustles ? Solid defender ? Unlike many draft prospects Graham has the experience of 4 years of progression in college. He is one of the most NBA ready prospects out there ? Extremely strong body, he can bench press over 400 pounds? Has good post skills with face up and back to the basket ability ... Excellent free throw shooter ...</div>

- Source -

Did you get that? He's a POWER 3. Since when are SFs in the league only restricted to triple threat and facing up. Graham can get in the post with anyone, WHY? Because he's bigger than every SF in the league. He'll power in, and I'm sure he'll be able to penetrate. Since noone will be able to rip the ball away from his hands, once he gets fouled he's gonna be cash money from the charity stripe.

I guess we'll wait til the season starts for Graham to prove you wrong.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">So when has it been said that SFs can't and aren't allowed to post up??? Your basically reducing Graham's game to nothing. You're basically saying he can't do anything besides be strong. Funny how he can get 17 and 6 on 53% shooting just from pure strength.

Here's Graham's scouting report.



- Source -

Did you get that? He's a POWER 3. Since when are SFs in the league only restricted to triple threat and facing up. Graham can get in the post with anyone, WHY? Because he's bigger than every SF in the league. He'll power in, and I'm sure he'll be able to penetrate. Since noone will be able to rip the ball away from his hands, once he gets fouled he's gonna be cash money from the charity stripe.

I guess we'll wait til the season starts for Graham to prove you wrong.</div>

First of all, I want you to cite ALL of your sources in the future. (By the way, is scouting reports all you're going on? Comes on, how many times have you seen him play?)

Why do I get the impression that you haven't been reading my posts? I never said Small Forwards can't post up, but that shouldn't be your go to move as a wing. And I'm not trying to reduce his game to just strength. I'm trying to show you how DANNY GRANGER is better in every area but strength. See the difference? You also seem to not realize that the NCAA is a lot less competitive than the NBA. In the NBA, Graham is not going to be quick enough to do the things he did in college, and he's not going to be so massive anymore compared to players like Shawn Marion, so bringing up his college statistics is irrelevant.

You seem to forget my argument in this thread. At no time, did I say that Joey Graham was not going to make it in the NBA. In fact, I think I've even praised the pick in this thread. However, I disagree with the fact that he was selected over Danny Granger. My role in this thread is as a participant in a debate on which player is better, Granger or Graham, and you have yet to prove to me why Joey Graham is the superior player. I've layed out my credibility for you to see, I've typed up an explanation on why I feel Granger is better, and I've replied to all of your off-topic and bizarre questions. Now do me a favor, put an end to this endless circle, and admitt that Danny Granger is the better player.

By the way, here's a possible nickname for Joey Graham in the nicknames thread - "Poorman's Danny Granger".

 

It'd be a double G showdown between the Pacers and the Raptors. Really looking forward to it.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">
By the way, here's a possible nickname for Joey Graham in the nicknames thread - "Poorman's Danny Granger".</div>



Thats low and not accurate. They're different players with different styles.
I dont get why you're so hostile on the pick, but i'd suggest you just let it go. The Raps got the player best suited to the team and also the one more willing and interested in playing for the TORONTO Raptors.
I also dont know what you're talking about saying Graham wont be able to use his strength to an advantage in the NBA cause he'll be up against the Shawn Marions. Name me another SF that can even come close to Graham physically? I cant think of any off the top of my head, Marion being the only one, and even he is at best a equal in power to Graham. Graham should be a good pro and i think the Raps made the best choice at 16.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> Name me another SF that can even come close to Graham physically? </div>

Shawn Marion
LeBron James (yes, I said it)
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
DANNY GRANGER


off the top of my head