With the 7th pick, the Toronto Raptors select Charlie Villenuva...

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats low and not accurate. They're different players with different styles.
I dont get why you're so hostile on the pick, but i'd suggest you just let it go. The Raps got the player best suited to the team and also the one more willing and interested in playing for the TORONTO Raptors.
I also dont know what you're talking about saying Graham wont be able to use his strength to an advantage in the NBA cause he'll be up against the Shawn Marions. Name me another SF that can even come close to Graham physically? I cant think of any off the top of my head, Marion being the only one, and even he is at best a equal in power to Graham. Graham should be a good pro and i think the Raps made the best choice at 16.</div>

First of all, that comment was really a joke. I personally found it very funny. Second of all, I would have loved to leave the thread hours ago, but just when I leave I receive word on AIM that someone said something really stupid and I've got to come back into the thread. And you're really taking my comment about Graham's strength out of context. I'm not saying that strength isn't a good attribute to have for any position, but I'm rather saying that it's not that much of an advantage when you don't have the other skills like ball handling and a quick first step that you need to use your strength as an advantage.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats low and not accurate. They're different players with different styles.
I dont get why you're so hostile on the pick, but i'd suggest you just let it go. The Raps got the player best suited to the team and also the one more willing and interested in playing for the TORONTO Raptors.
I also dont know what you're talking about saying Graham wont be able to use his strength to an advantage in the NBA cause he'll be up against the Shawn Marions. Name me another SF that can even come close to Graham physically? I cant think of any off the top of my head, Marion being the only one, and even he is at best a equal in power to Graham. Graham should be a good pro and i think the Raps made the best choice at 16.</div>

First of all, that comment was really a joke. I personally found it very funny. Second of all, I would have loved to leave the thread hours ago, but just when I leave I receive word on AIM that someone said something really stupid and I've got to come back into the thread. And you're really taking my comment about Graham's strength out of context. I'm not saying that strength isn't a good attribute to have, but I'm rather saying that it's not that much of an advantage when you don't have the other the other skills necessary to effectively use what strength you have playing Small Forward.

 

So basically all of you are going by Graham's draft profiles. Most of the time, those draft profile's are crap or are outdated. If you actually watched Joey Graham play for Oklahoma State this season, you would have seen that he was forced to play PF because his team lacked a true center. 6'7 Graham and 6'8 Ivan McFarlin were their starting big men downlow. I really do love Graham's overall game, but he's not perfect and is going to have to work on ball handling skills and working on creating his own shot off the dribble. I still think you all are going to regret picking Granger who can play SF and SG and is more of an offensive threat than Villanueva.

 

As far as ball handling goes, barring any fancy dribble moves they both averaged similar Assist-to-Turnover ratio, with Granger averaging 1.0 APT and Graham averaging 1.3 APT. As for the rebound numbers, the only reason Granger had better average was because New Mexico didn't have anyone else who could rebound to save their lives. David Chiotti was the only other player on the roster who averaged 5 rpg or more, at 5.1 rpg. Graham had the help of Ivan McFarlin who averaged 7.4 rpg. I don't know where you get this stuff about Graham lacking the quickness, but the last time I checked he does possess a quick enough first-step to be effective in the NBA. He can put the ball on the floor.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">As far as ball handling goes, barring any fancy dribble moves they both averaged similar Assist-to-Turnover ratio, with Granger averaging 1.0 APT and Graham averaging 1.3 APT. As for the rebound numbers, the only reason Granger had better average was because New Mexico didn't have anyone else who could rebound to save their lives. David Chiotti was the only other player on the roster who averaged 5 rpg or more, at 5.1 rpg. Graham had the help of Ivan McFarlin who averaged 7.4 rpg. I don't know where you get this stuff about Graham lacking the quickness, but the last time I checked he does possess a quick enough first-step to be effective in the NBA. He can put the ball on the floor.</div>
Maybe you should go up to the upper right corner and X off Joey Graham's NBA Draft Profile. All that crap that they put up on that site is trash. I watched a ton of his college games this year and I can tell you that he does not have a quick first step. He did improve in a lot of areas this past year, but ball handling skills was not one of them. So this year, I hope you sit down and watch a few games and not depend on internet profiles to tell you about a player.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting UKOwnstheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe you should go up to the upper right corner and X off Joey Graham's NBA Draft Profile.</div>


Hey, VinK, just bow out. Statistics don't tell the story. You have to watch these guys play. I respect that you're trying to learn more about these players by reading their profiles and looking at their statistics, but I just don't think you can get a feel for a player's abilities nor how they will perform in the NBA. Just simple as that.

 

Who said that I got the info off of a draft profile? You see, it's not so much the people without any actual knowledge that are idiots, it's the ignorant people who like to stereotype everyone into one group. Just because I'm talking about Graham, it doesn't automatically equal to "Everything he's saying must've come from a draft profile." Graham is slower than Granger, but he does have enough quickness and ball handling ability that will allow him to get to the basket. That's what I was trying to say. Not "Oh, Graham can break ankles and blow by any defender at will." For your record, I did watch several games in which Graham played, including the Big-12 game versus Arizona where they lost by Stoudamire's game winning shot.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">not that much of an advantage when you don't have the other the other skills necessary to effectively use what strength you have playing Small Forward.</div>

AGAIN, I'm telling you. You are reducing his game down to nothing but strength. You didn't mention Danny Granger in here. Quote: "doesn't have the skills necessary to effectively use the strength he has."

And what skills would that be? Ballhandling? Because I know Graham can post up, in case you didn't know strength can be used no matter how little skill you have, but seemingly Graham actually does have skill! Wake up call? Maybe for you.

P.S - I only used the player profile becuase you seem to turn down everything I said that was true about Graham, so I decided to get a real source... which you said was inaccurate... So I'm not sure what I can do but tell you to watch Graham in the NBA.

And would the profiles still be unaccurate if I found 5 sites that said the exact same thing about Graham? Sorry, I"m just wondering if 5 different websites would be all inaccurate...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting VinKanaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">Who said that I got the info off of a draft profile? You see, it's not so much the people without any actual knowledge that are idiots, it's the ignorant people who like to stereotype everyone into one group. Just because I'm talking about Graham, it doesn't automatically equal to "Everything he's saying must've come from a draft profile." Graham is slower than Granger, but he does have enough quickness and ball handling ability that will allow him to get to the basket. That's what I was trying to say. Not "Oh, Graham can break ankles and blow by any defender at will." For your record, I did watch several games in which Graham played, including the Big-12 game versus Arizona where they lost by Stoudamire's game winning shot.</div>
Okay, if you don't get your info from the draft profiles, then where do you get it? Believe me, I watched college games every single day I could and Oklahoma State games were on a lot. Graham does not have the greatest ball handling skills and has a slow first step. You can say what ever you want about Graham, so we'll have to wait and see who's wrong after his 1st NBA season is over.

BTW, Arizona plays in the Pac-10 and Oklahoma State plays in the Big 12. That game was a Sweet 16 game in the NCAA Tournament.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">AGAIN, I'm telling you. You are reducing his game down to nothing but strength. You didn't mention Danny Granger in here. Quote: "doesn't have the skills necessary to effectively use the strength he has."

And what skills would that be? Ballhandling? Because I know Graham can post up, in case you didn't know strength can be used no matter how little skill you have, but seemingly Graham actually does have skill! Wake up call? Maybe for you.

P.S - I only used the player profile becuase you seem to turn down everything I said that was true about Graham, so I decided to get a real source... which you said was inaccurate... So I'm not sure what I can do but tell you to watch Graham in the NBA.

And would the profiles still be unaccurate if I found 5 sites that said the exact same thing about Graham? Sorry, I"m just wondering if 5 different websites would be all inaccurate...</div>

I am not reducing his game to only strength. I'm just saying that his strength isn't as big of an asset as you may believe. And you still haven't told me any areas BUT strength where Graham is a better player than Granger. And I never said that he would never be posting up, and yes, his strength could be used there, but he's not going to be able to just "power in, and... be able to penetrate. Since noone will be able to rip the ball away" as you said. It's not that simple when he's not able to beat his man off the dribble. I feel you need to be able to do that and not just post up every game, but apparently I'm the minority on that one.

P.S. - What did I say about Graham that doesn't agree with these draft profiles? You highlighted to word toughness, but at NO POINT did I say Graham was not tough. I realize what his strengths are. However, I just don't feel as if he's comparable to Danny Granger in any of those categories; that's all. And from that same draft profile you posted we have this little paragraph -

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Doesn?t have great intangibles relating to ball skills ? His vision, passing and ball handling are just average ? Court awareness and feel for the game are just average ? His ability to put the ball on the floor and create is a work in progress ...</div>

Link

Also, I'm not just going to let this debate ride on their first seasons in the NBA like some of you doing, because Danny Granger is playing on a much better Pacers team behind an All-Star, whereas Graham will have the chance to start for the Raptors. This isn't something you can just call after watching one season but rather in the long term.

 

Their games aren't as similar as people think... so we'll leave this at that and say watch these players over the years.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Schaddy:</div><div class="quote_post">Shawn Marion
LeBron James (yes, I said it)
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
DANNY GRANGER


off the top of my head</div>

shawn i'd say is of equal power just to save a long drawn out debate
ron ron is tough, but not as physically powerful as Graham
Shane is also tough, but still not on Graham's level
Danny Granger isnt in the same league as Graham in terms of power so i dont know where that came from. IMO Graham will be the strongest, most powerful SF in the NBA from scratch, and it should only get more true as the years go on.

The debate can continue but i'd like to answer Vodoo's question...

area's where Graham is better than Granger...its more a matter of team needs really. Granger is better overall i think but Graham has some things that teams look at and value over Granger

1)Graham is probably an equal overall defender to Granger, maybe a bit worse but not much, regardless of what stats say. Graham is weaker on the perimeter defensively but a better interior defender. Again its close, but its true. Toronto could use defense anywhere but i'd prefer interior given our weak front court, especially if they try CV at 5 for awhile.
2)While both equal leaders i think thier methods are different, Graham is more commanding and forceful where as Granger is a bit more of a motivational speaker. I think given Mitchell's style and the attitude problems of several speakers they need someone that will get in their face, and i think Graham is more willing to do that than Granger. Granger would talk and talk and talk but i dont think he'd really step up enough to shut up guys like Alston.
3)Graham's offense is closer to the basket. That's somewhat to do with Granger's superior outside shooting abilitity and also to do with Graham using his size to an advantage in the paint. Given the number of jumpshooters on the Raptors i have to say his aggressiveness from 5-18 will be a welcome addition. Granger is more willing to stay on the outskirts of the offense. Sure he'll drive and he can be very effective at it, but its a bigger part of Graham's game. This is another case when again, Granger is "better" than Graham in an area but Graham is still prefered more because of how is does it.
4)Injuries. I know Grangers have been blown out of proportion but again i have to bring it up. Graham is considered to be a safer choice in this regards.
5)Want to play in Canada for the Raptors. If Granger had of been selected his thoughts would of been "damn, i wish they passed so i could play for the Pacers". Graham wants to be here, Granger a bit less. That deserves some recognition seeing as Toronto has had its share of problems with players leaving as free agents/wanting to be traded.

For these reasons i would of rather had Graham than Granger. End of debate?

 

I think Granger will be the better overall NBA player, however I think we need a guy who has the work-ethic and effort that Graham has. I think the Graham pick was more of whether he would be a good fit in the locker room and benefitial to have a guy like him on our team.

I think Graham was a nice grab at 16, but I think Granger was a bigger steal at 17. Anyway, I would have liked to get Granger at 7, but it didn't happen. I am perfectly happy with Joey Graham at 16 though.

I have a feeling this debate will never be resolved and that some Raptor fans will continue to support Graham, and Voodoo and UKOwnstheSEC will continue to support Granger. This probably won't go anywhere until both players play some games in the nba and/or against each other.

 

Good call Skip....anyways wasn't this forum supposed to be about C.Nova being picked 7th????

 

I think that I have to interject into this long and drawn out debate. There is a reason why Danny Granger was rated as the 5th best prospect in the draft. He can shoot, rebound, defend, and most importantly...be a strong leader on a team. I don't know why people are saying that he didn't want to come here in the first place because from what I read he loved Toronto. To be completely honest I think he is the Paul Pierce of this years draft. For Toronto to skip him on the #7th and #16th pick was horrible IMO. But time will tell.

Now onto Graham.

Everyone knows he is a superiour defender, rebounder and overall team player. I think what people are not taking into account is the fact that he was forced to play the 4 in college while he played the 1, 2 and 3 positions in highschool. His ballhandling can be better but it is not as bad as people think. I think the only thing he really lacks is a good first step. In terms of shooting, I think he is a very capable 3 point shooter when given the chance and he is a very lights out midrange shooter.

Now who would I have drafted at #16? I think it's quite obvious that I would have rather had Granger than Graham regardless of past injuries. He is just so much more versatile and would have been the best compliment to Bosh. They would have been the perfect 1-2 punch to take us into the playoffs.

Honestly I obviously would have taken him at #7 so why in the hell would I want Graham to be picked over him at #16? And I know a lot of posters in the RAptors forum would have wanted to have it that way as well. We can't lie to ourselves on that one.

 

No doubt I wanted Granger, but I'm just trying to stick up for the player we have now in Joey Graham. Granger is gone now, and we don't have him. We've gotta brush that off and support the new Raps players that we have. No ifs or buts.

 

I forgot to mention this before, but I heard that part of the reason the Raps chose Graham was because of the program he came from. Eddie Sutton's teams have always stressed defense first, and I think the Raps were looking to bring in that kind of attitude for the team.

 

We direly need defense, and I know Granger can play D but I like Graham's style of defense.

Hopefully Graham will use his body a lot in the NBA and try to be an enforcer b/c that is what our team needs.

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Basketbal...119191-sun.html

I like what our new rookies attitudes are. They want to be players that contribute to the needs of the team... Great.