OT Taxing churches

[PtldPlatypus]

I see this notion tossed out all the time with very little explanation behind it, so I'm curious about people's ideas about whether churches should be taxed, under what circumstances, in what form, according to what basis, etc.

I'd really love (hoping in vain, I know) for this not to devolve into an argument on the validity of religion or anything "left v right", because I don't think either of those are relevant to this particular topic. I'd just like to have a legit discussion on the merits of the various aspects of this concept.

 

[Shaboid]

The only time I think it makes sense to revoke a churches tax exempt status is when they participate in political activities; donations, fundraising, etc.. Other than that, churches provide great services to citizens and I understand why they are exempt from taxes.

Full disclosure, I haven't been to church in many years.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The only time I think it makes sense to revoke a churches tax exempt status is when they participate in political activities; donations, fundraising, etc.. Other than that, churches provide great services to citizens and I understand why they are exempt from taxes.

Full disclosure, I haven't been to church in many years.

You're welcome at mine any time!!

 

[Phatguysrule]

I see this notion tossed out all the time with very little explanation behind it, so I'm curious about people's ideas about whether churches should be taxed, under what circumstances, in what form, according to what basis, etc.

I'd really love (hoping in vain, I know) for this not to devolve into an argument on the validity of religion or anything "left v right", because I don't think either of those are relevant to this particular topic. I'd just like to have a legit discussion on the merits of the various aspects of this concept.

If you want to have a political voice then you need to pay taxes. But if a church wants to provide services to community the and worship in a harmless way I have no problem at all with their tax free status.

 

[ABM]

It's great question. I'm for churches not being taxed, but believe there have been countless abuses. There needs to be a MUCH higher level of scrutiny/accountablity to qualify as a 501c3 organization. Don't get me started on some of these cats justifying trottin' around in jets. That's a virtual travesty to me.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If you want to have a political voice then you need to pay taxes. But if a church wants to provide services to community the and worship in a harmless way I have no problem at all with their tax free status.

Now when you say "If you want to have a political voice then you need to pay taxes", are you suggesting that people who are employed by churches need to remain politically silent in order for the church to not be considered a political organization? Or just organizations themselves issuing official positions on political topics (like the Catholic Church denying communion to Nancy Pelosi)? Or is it just an issue of political contribution (ie, if churches contribute to a political entity or cause, then they are taxable)? What types of "political voice" should be prohibited?

For example, I remember our pastor making a point repeatedly about stating that he absolutely can not issue any kind of political opinion or recommendation from the pulpit; but he also repeatedly talked about life beginning at conception and supporting organizations like Pregnancy Resource Center who seek to provide support and counseling for women, primarily with the goal of preventing abortions. Should that still be sufficient to preserve tax-free status, or would you consider that political voice?

 

[barfo]

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be taxed. One could argue that yoga studios have just as much reason to be tax-free.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Now when you say "If you want to have a political voice then you need to pay taxes", are you suggesting that people who are employed by churches need to remain politically silent in order for the church to not be considered a political organization? Or just organizations themselves issuing official positions on political topics (like the Catholic Church denying communion to Nancy Pelosi)? Or is it just an issue of political contribution (ie, if churches contribute to a political entity or cause, then they are taxable)? What types of "political voice" should be prohibited?

For example, I remember our pastor making a point repeatedly about stating that he absolutely can not issue any kind of political opinion or recommendation from the pulpit; but he also repeatedly talked about life beginning at conception and supporting organizations like Pregnancy Resource Center who seek to provide support and counseling for women, primarily with the goal of preventing abortions. Should that still be sufficient to preserve tax-free status, or would you consider that political voice?

If the church or a representative of the church is supporting a political cause with the resources of the church then the church should be paying taxes.

So if the church is paying the Pastor and the pastor is paying taxes then he should be free to do whatever he wants with the resources he receives and pays taxes on. But if he's not paying taxes and the church is not paying taxes then he and the church should get no right to a public voice beyond his vote.

 

[Shaboid]

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be taxed. One could argue that yoga studios have just as much reason to be tax-free.

barfo

You make an excellent point, matey.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be taxed. One could argue that yoga studios have just as much reason to be tax-free.

barfo

Yeah. Tough to argue that...

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be taxed. One could argue that yoga studios have just as much reason to be tax-free.

barfo

Yoga studios sell a service, generate revenue, and pay taxes on the net profit after deduction of expenses. What is the analog for churches?

 

[Natebishop3]

I think they should be taxed.

I wonder if the best way to do it would be if they cross a specific threshold. I'd be more in favor of taxing some of these mega churches, but the tiny churches that don't make much money wouldn't need to be taxed.

 

[barfo]

Yoga studios sell a service, generate revenue, and pay taxes on the net profit after deduction of expenses. What is the analog for churches?

If a yoga studio simply asked for donations from it's clientele, as churches do, should the donations be tax-free?

They aren't currently, because the yoga studio provides a service in return.

Are you interested in arguing that the church provides nothing of value to the parishioners in return for their donations?

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yoga studios sell a service, generate revenue, and pay taxes on the net profit after deduction of expenses. What is the analog for churches?

Churches sell the idea of salvation and forgiveness. And business is good.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If a yoga studio simply asked for donations from it's clientele, as churches do, should the donations be tax-free?

They aren't currently, because the yoga studio provides a service in return.

Are you interested in arguing that the church provides nothing of value to the parishioners in return for their donations?

barfo

I would posit that yes, when run legally and properly, the church does not provide a service in exchange for donations. Those who attend without donating are no less entitled to anything the church offers to its parishioners than those who contribute the largest amounts. In fact, churches of whom I've been a part provide the most to those who contribute the least.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I think they should be taxed.

I wonder if the best way to do it would be if they cross a specific threshold. I'd be more in favor of taxing some of these mega churches, but the tiny churches that don't make much money wouldn't need to be taxed.

On what basis should said mega-churches be taxed? Simply on the surplus of contributions over expenditures in any given year?

 

[barfo]

I would posit that yes, when run legally and properly, the church does not provide a service in exchange for donations. Those who attend without donating are no less entitled to anything the church offers to its parishioners than those who contribute the largest amounts. In fact, churches of whom I've been a part provide the most to those who contribute the least.

Ok, if you are taking the position that churchgoers get nothing of value from attending, then I agree. But then why do you attend? You could just donate online and be done with it.

barfo

 

[barfo]

On what basis should said mega-churches be taxed? Simply on the surplus of contributions over expenditures in any given year?

Yes. Plus property tax.

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Ok, if you are taking the position that churchgoers get nothing of value from attending, then I agree. But then why do you attend? You could just donate online and be done with it.

barfo

I attend because I don't believe that one can properly and fully live out the Christian life, grow in relationship to God, and impact the world for Jesus without doing so in community with other believers. But again, my ability to participate in those activities is completely independent of whether or not I contribute to the church. In fact, my church is completely unaware of how much I contribute, as I make a point to do so in cash, anonymously, privately, into a dropbox. Thus, it is impossible to claim that I am "purchasing" anything from them.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

property tax.

barfo

That is one thing I agree with you on. When I was treasurer for my church for several years, it boggled my mind that we were exempt from property tax. I was never comfortable with that.

 

[barfo]

I attend because I don't believe that one can properly and fully live out the Christian life, grow in relationship to God, and impact the world for Jesus without doing so in community with other believers. But again, my ability to participate in those activities is completely independent of whether or not I contribute to the church. In fact, my church is completely unaware of how much I contribute, as I make a point to do so in cash, anonymously, privately, into a dropbox. Thus, it is impossible to claim that I am "purchasing" anything from them.

Suppose the yoga studio did the same, had an anonymous dropbox. Does that make them tax-exempt?

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Suppose the yoga studio did the same, had an anonymous dropbox. Does that make them tax-exempt?

barfo

So the hypothetical yoga studio is simply providing their service to anyone who walks in the door, irrespective of contribution? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to file for 501(c)3 status in that circumstance. They're clearly providing a public service, intending to improve the health of the community free of charge. That's wonderful

 

[riverman]

Yoga studios sell a service, generate revenue, and pay taxes on the net profit after deduction of expenses. What is the analog for churches?

Churches in my view also sell a service and generate revenue..at least the big ones do...I say you should be taxed on profits exceeding a humble stipend for maintaining a church in the community it serves....my problem isn't with church, it's with the greed that seems to follow a large congregation starting at the top....televangelists are a prime example...talk show preachers as well. The symphony at the Hult Center in Eugene provides some great peace and comfort to many, many people or as barfo mentioned ...any spa or yoga center ...do you think churches should pass the hat for tips during a church service? I believe churches should be taxed especially since they lobby for political positioning against things like abortion or gay marriage, etc....that's not the place of church in society but it's become that. My sanctuaries for spiritual contemplation aren't connected to organized religions so people of my value system gain no benefit from churches generating big profits tax free

 

[ABM]

....The symphony at the Hult Center in Eugene provides some great peace and comfort to many, many people or as barfo mentioned ...

Speaking of which, I'll be soon snagging (when they become available) tix to Chris Botti with the Nashville Symphony! Now THAT's gonna be a church-like experience!

 

[Shaboid]

My sanctuaries for spiritual contemplation aren't connected to organized religions so people of my value system gain no benefit from churches generating big profits tax free

How has the fishing been lately?

 

[riverman]

Speaking of which, I'll be soon snagging (when they become available) tix to Chris Botti with the Nashville Symphony! Now THAT's gonna be a church-like experience!

You'll enjoy that....he's wonderful...my wife keeps his cds in her car and we enjoy his music....music I love is church to me..church is where people exist in harmony with nature...that's also my concept of god ...wherever that occurs...you have "god"

 

[riverman]

How has the fishing been lately?

I'm going fishing tomorrow...last time we got 15 trout between the 3 of us.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

The only time I think it makes sense to revoke a churches tax exempt status is when they participate in political activities; donations, fundraising, etc.. Other than that, churches provide great services to citizens and I understand why they are exempt from taxes.

Full disclosure, I haven't been to church in many years.

This is what i would have typed if i were to answer this question. Including the last sentence.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I'm going fishing tomorrow...last time we got 15 trout between the 3 of us.

Hello,
May i ask where?

 

[ABM]

You'll enjoy that....he's wonderful...my wife keeps his cds in her car and we enjoy his music....music I love is church to me..church is where people exist in harmony with nature...that's also my concept of god ...wherever that occurs...you have "god"

At a risk of TMI, Chris Botti is love-making music for my wife and I. When the mood arises (pun intended), it's "Alexa, play Chris Botti music!"