Game Thread SEASON 8, The End!

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Best thing about the episode imo was the preview for Watchmen, that looks good.
 
Expanding on my previous thought, I could see an ending where Jon kills Dany, is killed in turn and no one ascends to the Iron Throne. The seven kingdoms splinter--as they were before Aegon's conquest. The last two Targaryens die and the realm reverts back to how it was before the Targaryens showed up. That seems fairly neat and tidy.

That would certainly make Sansa happy, as the North would be autonomous again. But she would have lost Jon as part of the deal. Bittersweet.
 
I'm just wondering if Drogan will have any say if the others try to kill Dany?
 
PCmor7 said:
The one character the writers seemed to care enough about not to change was Jon. He's a good character who really makes you think, if you stop looking at him as just the hero.

I always said there are "good guys" and there are "nice guys," and they aren't the same thing. A good guy will make hard yet unpopular decisions. A nice guy will shrink away from that, often doing what superficially helps people but being more comfortable being a secondary figure to avoid being disliked.

Jon's a "nice guy."

Jon's dangerous, more dangerous than Cersei or Dany. He has this likability factor, this charisma, that draws people to him. He has this authenticity. But he's neither smart nor wise nor ambitious. That leads to him being a false messiah. People are literally following a guy who knows nothing, and flocking to him resulted in tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths in this show, from his ill-planned and ill-executed defense of Winterfell to his honest-to-a-fault need to share explosive information with Sansa on the eve of the battle of King's Landing. He says he has to tell Sansa and Arya because they are family ... and yet, Dany not only is family, too, but she is his love. His intentions might be good, but he can't read people or situations. He leaves the person who has sacrificed more for him and his cause than anyone because he is much too simple. But that's true to his character. It's who he always was.

I'm interested to see how many if anyone picks up on the idea that Jon actually is one of the true villains of this series, if at least unintentionally. Dany got it right. He betrayed her. But he's the useful idiot that thousands would follow to their deaths because he can inspire to causes with no good plan on how to accomplish his goals, and then he doesn't really want to take the responsibility of picking up the pieces afterward.
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I just can't get behind this. Dany is trying to get him to hide the truth. She is completely in the wrong. It's selfish because her whole existence is based on her being the rightful heir to the throne.

Why is Jon in the wrong for telling the truth? I could make a strong case for not saying anything being the wrong move.

If Dany was going to snap she would've done so eventually when the secret got out anyway (not that I believe it either way).
 
Ok, list your top 5 characters throughout the entire series.

1. Ramsay . I loved hating him. I hated him more than I loved anyone else.

2. Joffrey. See above.

3. Cersei. See above.

4. Littlefinger. This fucking weasel was great entertainment.

5. Bronn. Not a super deep character but he stole every scene he was in.
 
Scalma said:
Ok, list your top 5 characters throughout the entire series.

1. Ramsay . I loved hating him. I hated him more than I loved anyone else.

2. Joffrey. See above.

3. Cersei. See above.

4. Littlefinger. This fucking weasel was great entertainment.

5. Bronn. Not a super deep character but he stole every scene he was in.
Click to expand...
1. Arya
2. The Hound (especially, when with Arya)
3. Uncle Benjen
4. Maester Lewin
5. Early Tyrion
6. Tywin with Arya.
 
Minstrel said:
Expanding on my previous thought, I could see an ending where Jon kills Dany, is killed in turn and no one ascends to the Iron Throne. The seven kingdoms splinter--as they were before Aegon's conquest. The last two Targaryens die and the realm reverts back to how it was before the Targaryens showed up. That seems fairly neat and tidy.

That would certainly make Sansa happy, as the North would be autonomous again. But she would have lost Jon as part of the deal. Bittersweet.
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Not trying to be a jackass, but trying to figure out what D&D are going to do based on simple logic is a fool's errand.

In retrospect, I wish seasons 7 and 8 didn't happen until George finished the books.
 
Terrible end to so many great character arcs. Terrible job making us believe Danny could act that way. This season is way too rushed we have people jetpacking all over the place and 6 major character deaths all at once. No political intrigue which was the amazing aspects of seasons 1-4. It appars D&D just wanted to end the fucking show ASAP and don't give a shit anymore. I'm convinced I could hire interns to produce this and come up with something far better. I don't even care about watching the finale and have lost interest in a spin off game of thrones. Hope Disney pulls these idiots off the star wars movies.
 
WesleyMatthews said:
Terrible end to so many great character arcs. Terrible job making us believe Danny could act that way. This season is way too rushed we have people jetpacking all over the place and 6 major character deaths all at once. No political intrigue which was the amazing aspects of seasons 1-4. It appars D&D just wanted to end the fucking show ASAP and don't give a shit anymore. I'm convinced I could hire interns to produce this and come up with something far better. I don't even care about watching the finale and have lost interest in a spin off game of thrones. Hope Disney pulls these idiots off the star wars movies.
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Lol what? They’ve been building up to this for years. “I will take what’s mine with fire and blood.” Come on now.
 
hoopsjock said:
I just can't get behind this. Dany is trying to get him to hide the truth. She is completely in the wrong. It's selfish because her whole existence is based on her being the rightful heir to the throne.

Why is Jon in the wrong for telling the truth? I could make a strong case for not saying anything being the wrong move.

If Dany was going to snap she would've done so eventually when the secret got out anyway (not that I believe it either way).
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For several reasons.

1. Timing. You are going into a battle that will probably determine generations of rule and the welfare of Westeros. If you survive the battle and Jon wants to tell it then, you do. Maybe one or neither of your survive and it isn't an issue. But, at this moment, it's not a big issue and it can be used to create division at a vital juncture. You want a united front without distractions.

2. Source. While we know it to be true and Dany seems to be giving Jon the benefit of the doubt, the fact is Dany and Jon still only know about this from "his brother and his best friend." It's not vetted info, and now isn't the time to investigate it.

3. Who he told. He fully knew that Sansa doesn't like Dany, and that the more people who have the information, the more it will become dispersed and the more likely it will be to cause a problem sooner rather than later.

4. Priority. Jon doesn't want the throne. He's said that multiple times. So why the urgency to reveal the secret to people in a position to hurt Dany while doing absolutely no benefit for him? There was no rush to do it if he ever did it. Do you think he was giving Sansa and Arya every explicit detail of his sex life with Ygritte? Not everything in his life has to be shared with everyone, and, quite honestly, Jon's parentage has absolutely no impact on Sansa, Arya and Bran. Turns out he's actually their cousin rather than their half-brother. How does this nugget of info change Eddard's children's lives at this stage?

5. Trust. She asked him. Simple as that. She took Jon's word about the White Walkers before she saw them. She came to his rescue north of the wall and lost Viscerion. She put her resources to work having dragonglass sent to Gendry to be forged into weapons. She allowed her army to be thrown into a hair-brained scheme to defend Winterfell, one that cost her deeply. She is Jon's lover and his family. Keeping the secret for another couple of weeks to support her cause to me doesn't seem unreasonable. If your wife, girlfriend or daughter ask you not to tell someone something, do you think it's advisable to immediately go and tell people?

I don't think it's fair to say her whole existence is based on her being rightful ruler. Dany did a lot of good for a lot of people. She could have achieved her means in a much more ruthless and reckless manner if she had so chosen. I think it's definitely important to her, but it's not her sole reason for doing what she's doing. Her platform for change definitely is aided by being the ruler, though, at least until the wheel is broken.

Even so, I don't see Dany snapping. But Jon's need to tell everyone everything immediately was going to cause unnecessary difficult. He knows nothing and talks too much.
 
Scalma said:
Ok, list your top 5 characters throughout the entire series.

1. Ramsay . I loved hating him. I hated him more than I loved anyone else.

2. Joffrey. See above.

3. Cersei. See above.

4. Littlefinger. This fucking weasel was great entertainment.

5. Bronn. Not a super deep character but he stole every scene he was in.
Click to expand...

I thought Littlefinger's death was poorly handled. Just felt too clean and easy. I almost got to thinking he actually fell for Sansa and it gave him a blind spot that overcame his typical meticulous maneuverings. Sansa and Arya's way of dispatching him was underhanded ... a tribute of Baelish's tutelage and Sansa's development ... but it just didn't seem a good enough scheme to eliminate him.
 
Scalma said:
Lol what? They’ve been building up to this for years. “I will take what’s mine with fire and blood.” Come on now.
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Same as I said above, she never killed innocents before. Most of her acts put her and her forces in danger to HELP innocents. That's the exact opposite of building up her actions in King's Landing for years. They didn't even build it up in last night's episode.
 
Can someone explain how dragon fire is now basically a wrecking ball and can just destroy masonry? It would be one thing if it was melting things, but it was literally blowing things up.
 
Dany giving Jon ultimatums was the beginning of the end.

PCmor7 said:
For several reasons.

1. Timing. You are going into a battle that will probably determine generations of rule and the welfare of Westeros. If you survive the battle and Jon wants to tell it then, you do. Maybe one or neither of your survive and it isn't an issue. But, at this moment, it's not a big issue and it can be used to create division at a vital juncture. You want a united front without distractions.

2. Source. While we know it to be true and Dany seems to be giving Jon the benefit of the doubt, the fact is Dany and Jon still only know about this from "his brother and his best friend." It's not vetted info, and now isn't the time to investigate it.

3. Who he told. He fully knew that Sansa doesn't like Dany, and that the more people who have the information, the more it will become dispersed and the more likely it will be to cause a problem sooner rather than later.

4. Priority. Jon doesn't want the throne. He's said that multiple times. So why the urgency to reveal the secret to people in a position to hurt Dany while doing absolutely no benefit for him? There was no rush to do it if he ever did it. Do you think he was giving Sansa and Arya every explicit detail of his sex life with Ygritte? Not everything in his life has to be shared with everyone, and, quite honestly, Jon's parentage has absolutely no impact on Sansa, Arya and Bran. Turns out he's actually their cousin rather than their half-brother. How does this nugget of info change Eddard's children's lives at this stage?

5. Trust. She asked him. Simple as that. She took Jon's word about the White Walkers before she saw them. She came to his rescue north of the wall and lost Viscerion. She put her resources to work having dragonglass sent to Gendry to be forged into weapons. She allowed her army to be thrown into a hair-brained scheme to defend Winterfell, one that cost her deeply. She is Jon's lover and his family. Keeping the secret for another couple of weeks to support her cause to me doesn't seem unreasonable. If your wife, girlfriend or daughter ask you not to tell someone something, do you think it's advisable to immediately go and tell people?

I don't think it's fair to say her whole existence is based on her being rightful ruler. Dany did a lot of good for a lot of people. She could have achieved her means in a much more ruthless and reckless manner if she had so chosen. I think it's definitely important to her, but it's not her sole reason for doing what she's doing. Her platform for change definitely is aided by being the ruler, though, at least until the wheel is broken.

Even so, I don't see Dany snapping. But Jon's need to tell everyone everything immediately was going to cause unnecessary difficult. He knows nothing and talks too much.
Click to expand...
 
PCmor7 said:
For several reasons.

1. Timing. You are going into a battle that will probably determine generations of rule and the welfare of Westeros. If you survive the battle and Jon wants to tell it then, you do. Maybe one or neither of your survive and it isn't an issue. But, at this moment, it's not a big issue and it can be used to create division at a vital juncture. You want a united front without distractions.

2. Source. While we know it to be true and Dany seems to be giving Jon the benefit of the doubt, the fact is Dany and Jon still only know about this from "his brother and his best friend." It's not vetted info, and now isn't the time to investigate it.

3. Who he told. He fully knew that Sansa doesn't like Dany, and that the more people who have the information, the more it will become dispersed and the more likely it will be to cause a problem sooner rather than later.

4. Priority. Jon doesn't want the throne. He's said that multiple times. So why the urgency to reveal the secret to people in a position to hurt Dany while doing absolutely no benefit for him? There was no rush to do it if he ever did it. Do you think he was giving Sansa and Arya every explicit detail of his sex life with Ygritte? Not everything in his life has to be shared with everyone, and, quite honestly, Jon's parentage has absolutely no impact on Sansa, Arya and Bran. Turns out he's actually their cousin rather than their half-brother. How does this nugget of info change Eddard's children's lives at this stage?

5. Trust. She asked him. Simple as that. She took Jon's word about the White Walkers before she saw them. She came to his rescue north of the wall and lost Viscerion. She put her resources to work having dragonglass sent to Gendry to be forged into weapons. She allowed her army to be thrown into a hair-brained scheme to defend Winterfell, one that cost her deeply. She is Jon's lover and his family. Keeping the secret for another couple of weeks to support her cause to me doesn't seem unreasonable. If your wife, girlfriend or daughter ask you not to tell someone something, do you think it's advisable to immediately go and tell people?

I don't think it's fair to say her whole existence is based on her being rightful ruler. Dany did a lot of good for a lot of people. She could have achieved her means in a much more ruthless and reckless manner if she had so chosen. I think it's definitely important to her, but it's not her sole reason for doing what she's doing. Her platform for change definitely is aided by being the ruler, though, at least until the wheel is broken.

Even so, I don't see Dany snapping. But Jon's need to tell everyone everything immediately was going to cause unnecessary difficult. He knows nothing and talks too much.
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Oh, I totally get the "reasons" I just completely disagree with your take that those reasons make him telling the truth wrong.

When Jon didn't want to have sex with Dany anymore it would've gotten weird anyway.

Are you married? How would it go if you told your significant other about something really important (like you found out you were related) some time before telling her?
 
PCmor7 said:
Same as I said above, she never killed innocents before. Most of her acts put her and her forces in danger to HELP innocents. That's the exact opposite of building up her actions in King's Landing for years. They didn't even build it up in last night's episode.
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This I agree with. Every city she conquered was to free the innocent ones or slaves. Why would she all of a sudden just not care about innocent people?

If the answer is because of Jon Snow being the rightful King then wouldn't it have made more sense to just kill Jon instead? That would have been much better writing and a moment that showed she was fully committed to being Queen at any cost. That could have led her to spiral into madness. Oh well.
 
hoopsjock said:
Oh, I totally get the "reasons" I just completely disagree with your take that those reasons make him telling the truth wrong.

When Jon didn't want to have sex with Dany anymore it would've gotten weird anyway.

Are you married? How would it go if you told your significant other about something really important (like you found out you were related) some time before telling her?
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Fair enough on the first point. None of us know what would have happened on the second ... couples part, no telling what their relationship would be like or who would have known and how much anyone else would have known if Dany and Jon weren't talking.

I presume your third line was meant to say if you knew something about your significant other really important before you told them, but that's not this situation. Jon told Dany. Dany was skeptical and still took his word. She asked him not to tell anyone else. It was a matter for Jon and Dany, not one that impacted the other Starks.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Can someone explain how dragon fire is now basically a wrecking ball and can just destroy masonry? It would be one thing if it was melting things, but it was literally blowing things up.
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Rule of cool. Same reason they had the Dothraki charge into the wight army with their flame swords. If they think it looks good, they'll do it, regardless of whether it makes sense. Those dragons seemed to toggle between being flamethrowers and RPG launchers.

Ever since they reached the end of the books, more and more they've replaced nuanced story with visuals held together by a tenuous structure of plot.
 
PCmor7 said:
Fair enough on the first point. None of us know what would have happened on the second ... couples part, no telling what their relationship would be like or who would have known and how much anyone else would have known if Dany and Jon weren't talking.

I presume your third line was meant to say if you knew something about your significant other really important before you told them, but that's not this situation. Jon told Dany. Dany was skeptical and still took his word. She asked him not to tell anyone else. It was a matter for Jon and Dany, not one that impacted the other Starks.
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Well him telling the Starks does matter in my mind because it means he's no longer their "brother" or a bastard. It also means their dad didn't cheat on their mom and have a baby with some other woman.

Where we disagree is that I think Dany is in the wrong to tell him not to say anything. In my opinion those that followed Dany to this point would have still followed her. The Northerners and a few random people like Varys probably wouldn't. People deserve to know who the rightful lineage belongs to, in my opinion.
 
hoopsjock said:
Well him telling the Starks does matter in my mind because it means he's no longer their "brother" or a bastard. It also means their dad didn't cheat on their mom and have a baby with some other woman.

Where we disagree is that I think Dany is in the wrong to tell him not to say anything. In my opinion those that followed Dany to this point would have still followed her. The Northerners and a few random people like Varys probably wouldn't. People deserve to know who the rightful lineage belongs to, in my opinion.
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Eh. Sansa and Arya didn't care. They considered him their brother. He still was their cousin and grew up with them. None of them had issues with Ned over thinking he fathered Jon; only Catelyn did.

I don't think we even are in complete disagreement about Dany telling Jon not to say anything. I think ideally the truth comes out, but there were definitely things of greater priority at this point in the story. Truthfully, I think it's very likely that Jon and Dany overcome his incest hang-up and they would end up together, because this was not an uncommon custom among royals, especially in medieval times, and especially so on Westeros. But I think they work as a team and figure out their affairs on their terms. It wasn't a pressing matter. It wasn't like Cersei knew and was threatening to release the information. Dany still was in the line of succession, and I believe would have become queen had Jon publicly abdicated in her favor. Or they rule as a couple.
 
The thing that really bugs me is none of this even had to be a question. The writers could be absolutely at the same position without going this route. And I think it makes the characters even stronger, makes the end more heartbreaking and the story more compelling.

With Missandei and Jorah gone, there's really no one to speak up for Dany who actually has seen the good she's done. Cersei's special plan for Dany is to destroy her reputation, something she'd already been doing through fake news and propaganda. "Hey, I'm bad, but I'm the devil you know. And I don't have dragons. My armies are born and bred on our continent. And remember what her father, the Mad King, did." She sews the seeds of doubt, plants wildfire and either sets it off herself or has Dany accidentally set if off during the attack. Word spreads that it was Dany who burned King's Landing.

Now Dany can no longer sway the Westerosi. She's won the battle and lost the war. Even many of her allies doubt her. Wars continue among the Seven Kingdoms. Dany is despondent; the one thing that really could push her to the brink is seeing her dream die. There's no enemy that can be burned now. She's fighting an idea. She and we know that her intentions are pure, but Westeros is split. And Dany is all alone; even Jon isn't the rock to her she so needs to cling to. She's isolated and feared, same as in the current situation. But her character hasn't changed. There was nothing she could do to avoid this. She becomes a tragic figure, not an insane one.

I don't know if that would end with her being killed by the forces against her or doubt sewed among her allies. Maybe she returns to Essos. And Westeros actually turns out worse for her efforts to have made it better.

To me, that's a more compelling story.
 
But I still don't see how anyone thinks what happened to her recently in Westeros would break Dany.

When she learned that Jorah had been working for Robert Baratheon, she banished him, she didn't execute him or others. When she burned the khals, she didn't burn everyone else Vaes Dothrak. When she destroyed the Slaver fleet, she didn't take revenge on their cities. When she lost Drogo, her son, Viserion, Barriston, she grieved, but she didn't break. She was a slave to the Dothraki. She didn't break. She had all kinds of setbacks in Essos that only made her stronger. She defeated the guilty and welcomed the innocent to her side if they so chose. To think she'd not do the same in King's Landing is more insane than they made Dany out to be. She'd won! She would have the adoration of everyone now. She defeated the oppressors with very little loss to civilian life.

Here's the other thing: Let's say you are angry at someone. You might take it out on a friend if the person who really upset you isn't there. But if the person who upset you is there, you are going to throw down with them. If the Red Keep really set her off as the writers said, the sight of the keep would send her there to end Cersei. It's a mile from where she was perched. She's not going to suddenly start burning her capital city like that. The writers never did anything to set up that kind of behavior.
 
PCmor7 said:
But I still don't see how anyone thinks what happened to her recently in Westeros would break Dany.

When she learned that Jorah had been working for Robert Baratheon, she banished him, she didn't execute him or others. When she burned the khals, she didn't burn everyone else Vaes Dothrak. When she destroyed the Slaver fleet, she didn't take revenge on their cities. When she lost Drogo, her son, Viserion, Barriston, she grieved, but she didn't break. She was a slave to the Dothraki. She didn't break. She had all kinds of setbacks in Essos that only made her stronger. She defeated the guilty and welcomed the innocent to her side if they so chose. To think she'd not do the same in King's Landing is more insane than they made Dany out to be. She'd won! She would have the adoration of everyone now. She defeated the oppressors with very little loss to civilian life.

Here's the other thing: Let's say you are angry at someone. You might take it out on a friend if the person who really upset you isn't there. But if the person who upset you is there, you are going to throw down with them. If the Red Keep really set her off as the writers said, the sight of the keep would send her there to end Cersei. It's a mile from where she was perched. She's not going to suddenly start burning her capital city like that. The writers never did anything to set up that kind of behavior.
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You just made me think of something that would have been so much better if she was going to become mad. What if she got the throne when the bells rang, but then slowly became furious as places like Winterfell/North chose not to bend the knee to her and wanted their own ruler (which was heading to that anyway). Basically she would've gotten the iron throne but most of the other kingdoms didn't recognize her as their queen and she also lost any friends she had in the process.

The transition would've been much more believable as she demanded that she be recognized by everyone in the realm.
 
hoopsjock said:
You just made me think of something that would have been so much better if she was going to become mad. What if she got the throne when the bells rang, but then slowly became furious as places like Winterfell/North chose not to bend the knee to her and wanted their own ruler (which was heading to that anyway). Basically she would've gotten the iron throne but most of the other kingdoms didn't recognize her as their queen and she also lost any friends she had in the process.

The transition would've been much more believable as she demanded that she be recognized by everyone in the realm.
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I could've accepted her descending into madness if they really showed she might be susceptible. There were ways to do that. Having her lose it after going through things she already went through seems so unlikely. Your idea makes more sense. The writers still have to set it up better than they did.
 
Scalma said:
Ok, list your top 5 characters throughout the entire series.

1. Ramsay . I loved hating him. I hated him more than I loved anyone else.

2. Joffrey. See above.

3. Cersei. See above.

4. Littlefinger. This fucking weasel was great entertainment.

5. Bronn. Not a super deep character but he stole every scene he was in.
Click to expand...

The Hound
Cersei
Varys
Arya
Tyrion
 
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